Dick Allen

If we buy the extra playoff games as the reason the pitching staff sort of sucked last season, shouldn't we also assume if the White Sox make the playoffs in 2007, not turning over pretty much the entire pitching staff will make 2008 a dissappointment? FWIW, Buerhle claimed in the interview that he wasn't injured or tired in 2006.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 6, 2007 -> 12:41 PM) That's not necessarily true. The Rangers may well have thought that Danks will actually be better than McCarthy, but if you look at things from the Rangers perspective, their "Window" closes in 2008. I know for a fact that Mark Teixeira hits Free Agency after 2008, and as he's a Boras client, he won't be signing any extensions before hitting the open market. On top of that, Michael Young hits Free Agency at the end of 2008 as well, and Hank Blalock hits at the end of 2009. With this roster, their window basically closes at the end of 2008, maybe at the end of 07 if they want to get something by trading Tex and Young. They need pitchers for 2007. Danks probably shouldn't see the big leagues until mid-07 at the very earliest, maybe 08 even better, and who knows how long it would take him to adapt to that level given that it has taken him a little while to adapt at each level he's stopped at. The Rangers wanted someone who could pitch for them right now, and they got that. Didn't KW say Danks along with Floyd would be competing for the White Sox 5th starter role? Isn't Dye a free agent and Buerhle after 2007 for the White Sox. Isn't Garland and Crede gone after 2008? Doesn't Texas sign Boras clients? I'm all for extending windows, and acquiring young pitchers is probably the best way to do it. I just don't understand why you trade a guy the organization built up to be some can't miss star, a guy KW said had to have a spot in the rotation even as he was struggling in the bullpen, and then discard him and call him serviceable. For all we know KW will think Danks and Masset and Floyd are all "serviceable" at this time next year. At least hopefully they will all be "serviceable." I really think McCarthy struggles last year are overrated. A lot of great pitchers struggled early in their career. I think he's a better pitcher than Danks.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 6, 2007 -> 12:31 PM) I'm plenty ready for it, I just don't like the idea of going young by losing Mark Buehrle for draft pick compensation alone when he should be worth significantly more than that in a trade. I'm sure he's been shopped. His second half and contract status must hurt his value. If the Sox keep him and he returns to form and they win a WS, having him 1 season would more than make up for the difference between a couple of draft picks, and some attractive trade package.

QUOTE(KevHead0881 @ Jan 6, 2007 -> 11:47 AM) Thats what I was thinking. This actually made me feel a little better about the deal. And even if Danks is merely the left handed equal of McCarthy, he'd still be better for us if his stuff is better suited for the Cell, as Kenny has said. Not to mention that left handers generally have higher value. If Massett can turn into anything, this trade could look pretty good in the long run. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait a little bit to find all this out. Whether Danks is as good as McCarthy is anyone's guess. The Rangers apparently didn't think so.

What would you expect him to say, especially on a Chicago radio station? It would be interesting if he truely felt that way when the Cardinals were actually permitted to give him an offer, ie he's not under contract with the White Sox. This is a non story. Did they mention any off season conditioning? Supposedly he and Ozzie believed he wasn't in very good shape last season. I still wonder why at times he wears that sleeve thing on his elbow.

QUOTE(heirdog @ Jan 5, 2007 -> 11:27 PM) Floyd, for all his faults, keeps the ball down better than McCarthy and has some movement (sink) on his fastball. FWIW, all those bashing McCarthy for giving up the longball, 17 in 84 innings, Floyd gave up 14 in 54 innings in the NL and hitters hit .315 against him.

QUOTE(Princess Dye @ Jan 3, 2007 -> 10:41 PM) understood that some people do this "spin"... but it is very possible to like this deal and not be a Kenny apologist. some people just dont think McCarthy was all that great, some people are not convinced he was going to be anything more than a 4.00 ERA starter. no one here has closely followed the careers of Danks and Masset from game to game, but we can still like this trade and appreciate having some life breathed back into the farm system. I just find it odd that people buy everything KW says about his trades. Its like everything he says is gospel. What do you expect him to say on the radio? Of course he's going to praise his acquisitions. I liked the Garcia trade, as I said before if Gio or Floyd develop into a good pitcher, it was a great trade. If both do, it was a steal. I can't understand the McCarthy trade. KW using Floyd's "movement" as something you need at USCF, and saying McCarthy throws straight. Well, Floyd's "movement" hasn't allowed him to throw many strikes yet in his career, and when he has, they seem to get hit pretty hard. Danks may be good, but really is he as ready to help the White Sox in 2007 or 2008 as McCarthy would be? The bottom line is if these pitchers are really as good as KW says they are, then he is a genius and the Sox will be set for a long while, barring injury. But, he basically is calling Gio and Danks the best LH pitching prospects in baseball and Floyd a stud, with Masset and Sisco future All Stars as well. That is probably a pipe dream.

Every season, the White Sox have a guy in the bullpen who totally dissappoints. 2003 and 2004 it was Billy Koch. 2005 it was Shingo. Last year it was Politte and Cotts. Chances are someone in the bullpen is going to be awfully bad in 2007. Thornton may revert back to his Seattle form. Jenks' hip may still be bothering him. 2005 the Sox had Hermanson, and then Jenks to step in when trouble appeared. Hopefully a guy like Sisco or MacDougal or Aardsma, if they don't falter themselves can pick it up if someone fails. Masset may be alright, but I still don't understand how KW uses rest as the cure-all to the White Sox 2006 pitching woes, when guys like Garland and Garcia and even Vazquez got better as the year went on, and then raves about Masset while he piles up appearances this winter. I hope the White Sox pick up another reliever. I do like the approach of actually acquiring guys who at least some teams consider 40 man roster-worthy as opposed to last offseason's approach.

QUOTE(EvilMonkey @ Jan 3, 2007 -> 04:40 PM) More for me, but sports related: 1) Was at the Bears game when Walter Payton broke Jim Brown's record, at the Fog Bowl, and at the game where Ted Washington ran a fumble back for a TD. Man, that was one long, slow run coming right towards the end zone I was sitting in. 2) I played in a 2 on 2 sand volleyball game against karch karai, or however you spell his name, and didn't know it until we were done (losing 15-2). Got an autograph aferwards. Didn't make up for the broken finger from trying to block one of his spikes. 3) Played tennis in college. Took the 4th ranked division 3 player to 5 sets (losing), then lost the next week in straight sets to someone from Joliet Junior College who had only been playing for about a year. 4) Was in a skybox at old Comisky (my one and only skybox trip) when Robin ventura got pummeled by old-man Ryan 5) I managed to bowl 18 strikes in a row without getting a 300 game. Game 2 was spare, then 11, game 3 was 7 then 3 splits. But at least I got a 700 series. Ventura got pummeled at the mound in Arlington Stadium, deep in the heart of Texas. Were you watching TV in the skybox that day?

QUOTE(fathom @ Jan 3, 2007 -> 08:48 AM) He definitely didn't give a glowing review of Pods and Anderson. When you start saying things like "we know they can handle playing in Chicago"....that's like saying "she has a nice personality". I like Anderson, but he is going to still struggle at least another season or so. Pods is truely one of the worst regular players in baseball. I don't understand the logic of letting a guy who doesn't get on base that much, who gets himself out a lot on the basepaths, and a guy with really horrible baserunning instincts, I have seen him not get an extra base numerous times, while guys with half his "speed" take an extra base easily, not to mention his defensive shortcomings, lead off, let alone play regularly. If Pods is leading off for the White Sox in 2007, 2007 will be dissapointing for White Sox fans.

I think the White Sox offer to Dye was the best one on the table at the time he decided to pull the trigger. It wasn't as if he had been coming off a few stellar seasons, there were a lot of questions, and it wasn't like the White Sox were thought of as title contenders either. After he accepted the offer, a better one came around, and thankfully for the White Sox, Dye apparently is a man of his word and still signed with the White Sox.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 31, 2006 -> 02:40 PM) Which is of course the ultimate proof of how little the "win" stat can mean for some players. #1 offense in baseball, pitcher with an ERA of 5.00. ANY other team in baseball and he looks 5x worse. So he's basically Garland, Vazquez, Garcia and Buerhle at this point in his career. If that's washed up, KW shouldn't be faulted for rebuilding.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 31, 2006 -> 01:07 PM) What risk? Risk of him winning more Cy Youngs? This is the one guy that yo pay the roof for. Every pitcher is a huge risk long term. The White Sox were prepared to go a lot of years for Alex Fernandez, but luckily didn't get the chance. They liked the fact he was young and had impeccible mechanics. He blows his arm out a couple years later. I can't see the White Sox ever offering more than 4 years for any pitcher, except maybe they would go to 5 for Santana. Other teams would go to 7 or 8 though.

QUOTE(Chet Lemon @ Dec 31, 2006 -> 11:57 AM) read in the paper today that he was looking for a four-yr. $40 mil. contract. So in 2005 he goes 14-11 and has to settle for a 1 year $8.5 million contract. He then goes 8-14 with a 5.76 ERA and now is looking for 4 years and $40 million? If any GM signs off on something even close to this, he needs to be committed. I would take the guy with a 1 year incentive-laiden contract, with some options, but other than that, let him go get lit up in another uniform.

For a guy who is supposedly washed up, Johnson sure did win a lot of games in 2006.

First off, I don't think the Sox should offer Buerhle anything until he shows that he's over whatever it was that made him meat the second half of 2006. Whether you like it or not, the White Sox rarely go beyond 3 years with pitchers, and 4 only a couple of times I believe. Looking back, it actually has been a wise policy. I think if Buerhle regains his form, the Sox will offer him something fairly reasonable they know he won't accept, or if he does it will be a pretty good bargain, just to show their fans they tried. I don't think they can get fair value for him in a trade right now, coming off the poor stretch, and a soon-to-be free agent who probably isn't going to be easy for anyone to sign except maybe the Cardinals. (I still think he's going to end up there, regardless of his past comments). They might as well roll the dice and hope he bounces back. They may wind up with nothing for him, but if he helps them win another World Series, that would be better than any package KW could get unless that package were to lead the Sox to multiple championships.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 26, 2006 -> 09:15 PM) Randy Johnson makes $7 million more than Garcia next year, is more than 10 years older, is spending his offseason rehabbing from major surgery, and had an ERA of 5.00 last year (not to mention the fact that Garcia at least showed some hope with that split finger pitch down the stretch). I'm sure anyone who trades for him will have a pretty complete exam of his back before the deal is finalized. Johnson is actually 13 years older than Freddy, but he throws harder, and with both, you're looking at a 1 year thing, so the age thing really doesn't matter. Other than that, the post I initially responded to was one that said the Yankees shouldn't be able to get anything for Johnson. If Gil Meche can score $55 million, some team would be willing to take a 1 year $16 million gamble on a future HOFer who has won 34 games the last 2 seasons.

I don't think 1 year ago today people would have or could have seen the total decline of Mark Buerhle the second half of 2006. I think it would have been easy to forecast Cliff Politte and Neal Cotts taking a step back, but not falling down the stairs. Now we have guys that could be good in Aardsma and Sisco, but they also could just as easily be just as bad as Politte and Cotts. Thornton had his first taste of major league success last season. Its really anyone's guess whether or not that can be sustained. MacDougal could be a big help, if he does something he rarely does, remains healthy. Jenks has a hip problem the White Sox believe is weight related. Will his slimming down to 279 make that go away? He became pretty hittable late in the season. You would hope Buerhle's second half is just a fluke. He was as consistent as there has been the previous 5 seasons or so. Vazquez was mediocre, just like he has been most of his career. Garland was horrible at the beginning and then was great. Can he make it a full season of great? Contreras has had back and leg problems, something that usually doesn't get better as you move into at least your middle 30s. Any DL stints could be catastrophic. Then there always is the possibility that all these guys pitched lights out. You would think guys like Dye and Thome and Crede and AJ probably won't have as flashy of offensive numbers in 2007. I don't think any of them will fall apart, at least if they remain healthy, but I think with a guy like Dye, his numbers will probably be closer to his numbers in 2005 as opposed to last year. The offense, as poor as it was the second half, wasn't the issue. Its all going to come down to the pitching, as always. And considering the White Sox really haven't added anyone with any sort of track record of major league success, its probably being rather optimistic saying they are better off now. I have been an advocate of trading 3 starters. I think the White Sox window, especially with the escalating salaries, was very brief. I think trading 3 starters not including McCarthy, would have freed up a ton of cash, and added prospects who could be ready in 2008. A small step back in 2007, then having some studs ready in 2008, and a bunch a cash to spend on a bumper crop of free agents, really could set this team up for a long time.

QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Dec 26, 2006 -> 05:53 PM) Is Randy Johnson going to net the Yankees more talent that Garcia did for the Sox? If so, KW was fleeced. I think the only reason he wouldn't net as much would be the additional cash he is owed. Its amazing on this board how awful pitchers on other teams are and how valuable they are as White Sox players when they have similar numbers.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Dec 26, 2006 -> 05:53 PM) If the Yankees get anything of value for the Unit without paying a subtantial amount of the $16 million he's owed next season, I'll be more angry than when they traded Sheffield to the Tigers. Why? How much worse was he last year than Freddy Garcia? The Sox got Gio for Garcia and Floyd who people on this board think will be the 5th starter, and most think they didn't get enough.

I would think it would all depend on what the Yankees were asking for. Its amazing people think Johnson and his 5.00 ERA are done, but Buerhle and his 4.99 ERA is an automatic turnaround in 2007. I don't know how you could trade for Johnson before he shows if his back surgery did him any good or not.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 11:20 PM) Can't wait for the deadline to roll around when we're 8 games back...Let the minor leaguers start rolling in then. If that were to occur, I think you would see Buerhle gone to the highest bidder, along with Vazquez and possibly Contreras. I think KW was pretty set on trading another starter, which to me wasn't a bad thought. I'm just shocked it was McCarthy. I do think Buerhle was the odd man out, but evidently they couldn't get back fair market value for him. The Yankees wouldn't trade Humberto Sanchez straight up reportedly. People may believe Buerhle when he says he really doesn't want to pitch for the Cardinals until maybe late in his career (after the second half of last season, if that continues, it probably is late in his career) but I don't think many in baseball are buying it. I think his trade value is hurt by his love of the Cardinals and any team thinking of acquiring him probably assumes he is a longshot at signing an extension. If I were a GM, I would be very reluctant to give up a huge package for a guy who wasn't any better than a minor leaguer the second half of 2006, who is signed only for one season, who I have to pay pretty good money to for the one season, who I have basically no chance re-signing. Can some explain to me how playing into the WS allegedly tires a pitching staff out, but this guy Masset is pitching in Mexico during his "off season" and he could be a guy in the bullpen in 2007? Isn't he going to be totally gassed for next season?

QUOTE(scotty22hotty @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 08:59 PM) Way to F up the team AGAIN Kenny 3rd place here we come We're already there.

I thought you were giving the winning numbers for the New Jersey lottery.

Ozzie not being impressed with McCarthy has been well documented. I also wonder if there was any feeling in the organization that Ozzie would hold it against McCarthy that Garcia is pitching for someone else contributed to this.