Dick Allen

Strengthening the bullpen will help out all of the Sox starters. All of them have shown signs of fatique. BMac could get stretched out fairly quickly, and should be strong in the second half as well.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 11:36 AM) KW doesn't need Ozzie's "blessing" and I'm sure that the two of them have spoken about this before. I don't think there's a chance in hell KW would ship Freddy out of town without consulting Ozzie and getting his OK first. He doesn't need his blessing, but its best for everyone that he gets it, at least concerning Garcia.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 11:33 AM) Pretty odd with out a leadoff hitter. Milledge is one hell of a talent but Flash would definitely be more of a boost to this team than Lastings. Milledge would look pretty good around 2008-9. Gordon would look good 2006-7.

If KW is shopping Freddy, Ozzie must have given his blessing. I think that says enough right there.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 11:20 AM) There are there differences between the two as you mentioned, but the deal was made completely mortaging the future of that Expos franchise, for a month or two of Colon. I think him being under contract for another year, regardless of what he's owed, is something that will spike his value. If the Mets thought they could change Victor Zambrano into a prize, they certainly think the same about Freddy Garcia? No? Actually, Colon had another year on his contract. Minaya made the 3 way which netted the Sox Colon. Minaya wound up with crap, Liefer, Biddle and an injured El Duque.

QUOTE(beautox @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 11:18 AM) agreed from a white sox prespective, but you move him to the NL and his stats go down drasticly. I don't know about that. He would be pitching in a bigger park, but he lets lots of hitters get on base now, and when they get there, they run wild. Freddy Garcia 2006 is a completely different pitcher from anything we have seen from him earlier. He could easily turn into a total disaster. I'm not a fan of Vazquez, but in the playoffs I'd rather have him pitching than Freddy throwing up his junk.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 11:15 AM) That wasn't my argument. I don't give a damn who said Milledge wasn't available, the same bulls*** was said about Grady Sizemore and the Indians netted alot more than just him alone for Colon. So don't try pass off crap and say that I'm arguing something im not. When Minaya traded for Colon, his ERA was about half of what Garcia's is right now. Phillips I believe was actually the biggest name in the deal. He was supposed to be a stud, although Sizemore was very well reguarded.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 11:05 AM) And somehow in a similar situation last year, McCarthy was inches away from being shipped to the Marlns. Thats baseball. The White Sox couldn't rely on Hernandez in the fifth slot, needed some offense aswell, and almost got rid of there best prospect because of it. Thankfully they did not, but Omar Minaya's track record isn't as lucky, ala: June 27, 2002: Traded by the Cleveland Indians with Tim Drew to the Montreal Expos for Lee Stevens, Brandon Phillips, Cliff Lee, and Grady Sizemore. That was Bartolo Colon. He's a little different than Freddy Garcia throwing 86, and it was a trade he can learn from.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 10:58 AM) I don't know if it's the fact that he's washed up or that he really doesn't want to throw his fastball anymore. If it's the latter, then I want him gone and this is coming from a huge Freddy Garcia fan. He's not even a great pitcher in day games or in big games anymore when last year, he was always good for that. I think Freddy wants to throw his fastball, he just can't.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 10:46 AM) Well then he's going to go into the playoffs with a battered Pedro Martinez, an old Tom Glavine, and barely anyone else behind him. It's not like the Mets are in a position of power here. The White Sox are. You saw what the Reds did yesterday to acquire needs, the Mets and Omar Minaya certainly will do the same. The Mets also got burned trading a phenom for a wash-up pitcher in 2004. Believe me, it will take more than Freddy Garcia to get Milledge away from the Mets, and if Milledge is available, there will be teams willing to part with pitchers more attractive than Garcia to acquire him.

I would think if KW trades a starter is almost a lock BMac moves into the rotation. I would think if they did this deal fairly soon, they may call up a guy like Haeger to be the long man in the bullpen. If he could handle it, and if AJ can handle the knuckler fine, if not, a guy like Armas may make sense as a guy they could use in long relief.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 10:41 AM) The White Sox won't trade one of the two unless they get a stunning deal. Would you do Lastings Milledge, Duaner Sanchez for Freddy Garcia? Add in Cliff Politte if necessary. Omar Minaya wouldn't do that trade.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 10:35 AM) the risk to all this is if Garcia and Vasquez pitch like crap in there next outing. I am sure they aare reading the same crap we are. Its easy to get distracted especially in the NEw York press. There is a pretty good chance they would pitch like crap anyway. QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 10:35 AM) i would love to have flash back. YOu could almost count on teams not scoring innings 7, 8, and 9. If we were to move Bmac to the starting rotaion. We would need someone to be are long reliever. Tracey maybe. fathom has a source that told him there are very long odds of Tracey pitching on a team managed by Ozzie Guillen ever again.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 10:29 AM) Jenks would be the closer, Flash in set up The nice thing about this is if Jenks pitches 2 or 3 games in a row, Gordon could be used to close it out. An All Star closer as a set-up man, and you probably have at least a 50/50 shot of improving the rotation by getting BMac in there in place of one of the bigger names. I think if this trade were to be made, there would also be something else that would probably come down.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 10:16 AM) Well maybe Freddy's antics at the Bosox series and showing up his teamates pushed this over the edge. That and his new style of pitching. If he isnt hurt and just decided not to throw hard, KW has to be pulling his hair out. Its like if Bobby Jenks just decided that 98 was too hard, so he would cruise it in there at 92 just for the hell of it. I think you are right. His antics the Boston series, showing up Iguchi, lost velocity, the alledged positive marijuana test at the WBC, and the fact that KW gave up a guy he had on his "3 year board" for Vazquez, would indicate to me that he would be reluctant to pull the plug on Vazquez after 3 months. If the Sox trade a starter, I would imagine it would be Garcia that KW would prefer to move. I wonder how much more than Gordon KW wants from Philadelphia.

QUOTE(Capn12 @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 06:38 AM) If other teams are willing to take on a headcase for their rotation in Weaver, then surely they are willing to bite on Garcia or Javy....though I'm not quite sure which I'd be more willing to move right now honestly... The Angels are paying part of his remaining contract, which expires after this season, and gave up a 24 year old 47th round draft pick who started the season in A ball. A non-prospect. Makes the interest a little easier to understand. I hope if the Sox move one of these guys before the deadline, they move the other one next offseason.

So Farmer didn't get the job because he was prepared for his audition and got in the way of Hawk talking about his golf game? I can assure you that is total BS. Its fine to rip on Hawk and DJ, but these guys should at least on tell stories which are total lies.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 08:30 AM) I guess you didn't read this morning's papers. Vazquez for a top bullpen guy [and moving BMac to the rotation] IMO wouldn't be a sideways move. BMac should be able to better Javy's numbers and Qualls should step right in where Bmac was inconsistent. And if Mackowiak wasn't all he was cracked up to be [not the best CFer-has played little at 2b or 3b], getting a guy like Burke could be an improvement My main point about chemistry is that Vazquez doesn't have a long history with the sox. His leaving after a 1/2 yr wouldn't affect the players like a Freddy, Garland, etc. moving could. These guys build relationships, they aren't robots. The article also mentioned Garcia as a guy who is very available. I don't know how he is in the clubhouse, but he has shown up teammates at least twice on the field this season. That and the fact that Buerhle throws harder than him at this point may be a couple reasons why he's available.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 09:40 PM) It wouldn't matter if Arizona was paying ALL of his salary. Vazquez's salary does not receive a check from the WS, the Yankees, and Arizona. The money is paid in cash and it is over with. So the WS are currently paying ALL of Vazquez's $11.5 million this year, and are on the hook for $12.5 million next season. Yes, they did receive what, $5 million from Arizona in the trade? So basically, that means the money coming out of the WS pocket is about $9 million this season and $10 next year. But if Vazquez is traded, it isn't like that money leaves the White Sox and goes with Vazquez. If he were traded tomorrow, the team that acquires him will be responsible for the pro-rated amount of his salary this season (approx 5.3 million or so?) and ALL $12.5 million next year. Of course, the WS might send cash, as the other teams had to to move him, but in that case, they had better be getting some damn good players back, not some slop of prospects. Either way, his salary makes him difficult to move to anyone other than a contender, and we aren't giving him to any contender. I understand that, and that is the point I was trying to make. Arizona didn't give the White Sox all of the money they were getting from the Yankees. But if Vazquez was traded, other teams would probably expect the White Sox to at least kick in the same amount of money they are receiving from Arizona. If KW moves a starter, and who could blame him if Gary Majewski and a couple of other bums are worth Lopez and Kearns, its going to be with an NL club or an AL club with no chance IMO. Considering what KW gave up to get Vazquez, I would be surprised if he gave up on him after half a season though.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 08:59 PM) Vazquez has no value, just because of his contract? I'd pretty much have to disagree completely with that. When the Yankees traded Vazquez to Arizona, they picked up $3 mill in each of the next 3 years of his contract(so instead of Arizona paying $9.5, $11.5, and $12.5 million, they would have paid $6.5, $8.5, and $9.5). Arizona then traded him to Chicago, and in doing so, picked up an additional $1 million for this season, and $3 million more in '07. So, with a little simple arithmetic, you see that the Sox are paying Vazquez $7.5 million this year and $6.5 million this year. In a market where a mediocre SP numbers-wise with injury problems in his past as well as a losing record for his career, but with great stuff, gets a contract equal in value to that of a .290 40 100 .900, solid defensive, under 30 1Bman, Vazquez's $7.5 million this year is a bargain, and his final year is even moreso. Of course there's a catch, in that due to him demanding and then receiving a trade, he does not become a free agent until after the 2008 season and he will enter an arbitration period following the 2007 season. I'm not exactly clear on what the details are on that situation, but if it is just normal arbitration, you could probably just not tender him a contract following the 2007 season; however, I have a feeling you probably can't do that, and his 2008 salary would be an 8 digit figure - not to say the Sox couldn't pick up some of that, but that would be something to figure out at a future date. Regardless, with the contract AJ Burnett got, I know Vazquez has value, and trading him for Aaron Rowand would be a desperate move when the team is not in a state of desperation. If you're going to get Aaron Rowand back - and it makes very little sense really, short-term and long - it's going to cost you young players, not veterans with heavy contracts. Vazquez has no value to Philadelphia, but does to other teams in the league. Arizona didnt pick up additional money more than the Yankees were picking up. In fact, at first they demanded anyone picking up Vazquez would pay his entire salary. They kept some of that Yankee money. The Sox are paying Vazquez approximately $10 million a year, maybe a little more. And if Vazquez continues to pitch like he's pitched, there is no way the White Sox will offer him arbitration in 2008 when minimally he must be offered almost $10 million.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 09:10 PM) It's not an ass rape, and anyone who thinks so doesn't follow enough baseball. Bray, Majewski are both above average relievers. The Reds had a terrible bullpen, and were terrible defensively. It makes sense to trade what you have depth at for something you don't have anything at. Kearns is putting together a good season, yes sir, and I think he'll continue to do that, but Bray's got closer material written all over him. I'd say its about even with a slight edge on pure talent, not precisely team need, going to Washington. In Rosenthal's column on foxsports.com there is a GM, and although he doesn't use the word ass rape, he thinks the Nationals got the better of the deal. I'm sure he follows at least as much baseball as you do or anyone on this board does. Majewski is a journeyman, he's average.

If the price for mediocre pitching is this high, KW should dangle Vazquez and Fields, someone I believe is Joe Borchard Jr. and whose stock will probably never be higher for a package that will most likely improve the White Sox chances this year and in the future.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Jul 13, 2006 -> 05:21 PM) "I personally love it," Reds utility player Ryan Freel said. "I'm not knocking Kearns and Lopez, but we all knew that most of the problem has been with the bullpen." I saw that quote. I wonder what he loves more, seeing Gary Majewski enter the game from the bullpen, or the fact that his view of watching him enter will be from the playing field not the dugout.

I would think, defensive deficiencies or not, Lopez and Kearns are worth more than Majewski, Bray, Harris, and Royce "cancer" Clayton. I think the Sox traded Majewski 2 or 3 times, and they released Clayton. The Nationals gave up 4 very average, ordinary players. Kearns could be a 30 homer guy. Lopez could be a 20 homer 30 steal guy, an Alfonso Soriano lite.

KW should call the Reds GM every 5 minutes until this guy gives him a deal.