iamshack

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:04 PM) Seeing as how he was in better shape this spring training this year than last year really supports this claim very well. You've always got every answer, don't you? Try not to be so damn smug with every post. I don't buy this Jenks in better shape crap. He's just as big this season as he was the last. He even laughed when asked about losing 25 pounds.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:01 PM) What would it take to get this guy? He is availble - but at what price? This would solve LF, then we could get Ichiro for RF and Aaron Rowand for CF. Cabrera will not be a free agent until after 2009 I believe. That is one hell of an OF and you replace Pods with Ichiro and Dye with Cabrera just at different corners. Just a dream I know - but Ichiro basically pays for his own salary with all of the merchandise he sells and the fans he brings to the park. You could even put Cabrera at 3B and move Fields to LF. Plus he is Venezualean. Get em Oz. Two words. Not Happening.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 02:54 PM) If a team makes you include Broadway or Russell in a deal to get another solid prospect, you jump on that. I've got to agree with you there. Even Egbert.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 02:47 PM) Randy Johnson put up a K/9 of 7.5 in the 2nd best division in baseball last year, and he had a K/9 of just under 9 the previous season in the toughest division in baseball. Along with that, his peripherals have always been good, aside from the homer totals. Very solid control, very good WHIP, good BAA, and the K/9. Beyond even that, with how much concern there has been for his knee over the past 5 years or so, he's thrown 200+ innings 3 years in a row and 7 of the last 8. Jose Contreras's is pretty much the opposite in every single one of those aspects, and is possibly older to boot. El Duque was also making just $5 mill at the time of his trade, and he netted Jorge Julio, who is pretty much Mike MacDougal from this year painted Latino. He's not good. And it's very possible that might be all the Sox would be able to get value wise (which could mean like a journeyman 2Bman or a stopgap starting pitcher). Someone would take the chance, no doubt, but the Sox would have to include money and take a cut in what they get back. I've said already on this board that I'm completely down for that, because thats how bad I think Contreras will really be next year. I'm talking about El Duque right now, not two years ago. Randy Johnson looked nowhere near in as good of physical shape as Contreras last year. Contreras looks "youthful" compared to Johnson. He hasn't been as bad as you might suggest. He's had a few poor outings this season surrounded by a bunch of quality starts. There is little doubt in my mind that he can be a solid pitcher in this league for another few years. And that, currently, is worth $10 million annually. Especially given he only has two years remaining on his contract after this season.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:51 PM) Myers is a 26 year old with big time talent. Contreras is probably somewhere in his 50's with deteriorating stuff and $20M left on his deal after this season he needs to stay in the rotation and finish the year off with some success to prove he can still be a decent starting pitcher. Having him pitch an inning or 2 every 2-3 days is not going to help convince anyone he can still throw 200 league average innings in a season for the next 2 years, especially if he's as bad out of the pen as I suspect he'd be. Oh you're right, especially considering that Randy Johnson convinced us all over the past two years that he was capable of doing what he is this year. And El Duque. Someone would take the chance.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:45 PM) I don't think Ichiro will lose much athleticism over the course of a 4 year contract, perhaps a bit in the final year but his age really doesn't bother me one bit. He's possibly the most physically fit player in the league right now and has one of the most insane workout regimens imaginable. I'm as weary of the deteriorating athleticism of mid 30 year old players as anyone (which is why I have no interest in Hunter) but I just don't see it being a problem with Ichiro. If the Sox signed him to a 4 year deal he'd be 37 years old in the final year of the contract, hell even an overweight Tony Gwynn hit .372 in his 37 year old season. I really think Ichiro is just that good, he won't let age get in the way of success. I'd like to see us explore cheaper options before taking on that big of a contract, but believe me, I wouldn't be upset if we signed him. Especially considering the influx of Japanese money that would come in, which would lessen the financial burden for the organization.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:37 PM) At this point I think it would be pretty tough to get a team to eat all of Contreras' contract and get back talent at the same time but I definitely think someone would take a flier on him if it came at a minimal cost talent wise. If he were moved to the pen I don't think you're going to convince any team to eat that contract. I'm pretty sure a team would understand he is still capable of returning to the rotation. Especially considering it would be done not because of Jose's performance, but because of the lack of any sort of a bullpen on this team. The Phillies have already done it with Myers. Do you really think a team would only acquire Myers with the idea of him coming out of the pen?

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:27 PM) The Sox can absolutely afford both Ichiro and Buehrle but they'll need near minimum players in 2 outfield spots, at 3B and at 2B, that would leave around $5M-$8M to be spent on a few bullpen spots and the bench. This would also come after a Contreras trade. I'd spend $15M a year on Ichiro if it were a 4 year deal, the Sox haven't had a consistently good leadoff hitter since god knows when, atleast with Ichiro you know you have one of the 5 best in baseball and probably THE best contact hitter in the game which is something this lineup desperately needs. I don't want another 5 seasons of scrub leadoff hitters, just sign Ichiro and be done with it for the next 4 seasons. Ichiro is 33 right now. I would be a bit weary considering alot of his value depends on him maintaining his speed. Although he may have a bit of Omar Vizquel in him regarding his ability to stay in shape late in his career. Undoubtedly, Ichiro will most likely continue to push himself to guarantee his entrance into the HOF.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:31 PM) Well that's where the problem is, I have given up on this year. All I care about is this team somehow competing for a playoff spot next season. Besides, Contreras would be a disaster out of the pen he has no strikeout pitch that he can throw for a strike, throws his fastball in the upper 80's with poor control and has a rather lengthy warmup routine. I also don't see how any youngster coming from the minors is going to outdo Jose's production in the rotation for the rest of the year. Moving Contreras to the pen would only create problems for the future rather than solving current ones. Well, that's where we differ then. I agree that it would be a somewhat crazy move, but as I said, I'm willing to try anything at the moment. This is a long baseball season, and with our starting pitching, I'm not ruling out a run until it is absolutely clear it cannot happen. If Contreras is worth as little as you say, it's not going to harm much of anything anyways.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 11:39 AM) If you deal with the Yanks, you go for Melky and two projectable arms unless of course you get them to bite on giving up Phillip Hughes. Hughes is untouchable. While winning now is the priority in New York, with the pitching woes the Yankees have had in the past few years, dealing Hughes, who has eclipsed a Mark Prior "messiah-like" status in the Bronx, would result in Brian Cashman's head on a skewer.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:23 PM) Exactly and moving him to the bullpen would only make dealing him tougher. The whole point of the idea is to try and win this year. If you are trying to do that, you don't worry about trading Contreras right now. I'm not giving up quite yet, and I'm willing to try about anything to get this thing on the right track. Obviously, if you are conceding this season, than sure, putting Contreras in the pen does nothing but make things more complicated.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:17 PM) And where is your leadoff hitter coming from then? I'd rather not have those 3 in the outfield, if Terrero and Rowand are going to be out there then I want an impact bat in LF, if Sweeney and Terrero are out there then I want an impact bat in RF. I just don't think a Sweeney/Rowand/Terrero outfield would provide enough offensive production, maybe a combined .750 OPS tops. I desperately want Ichiro on the South Side next year, he'd fill the vacant leadoff spot and supply the team with an above average contact hitter in the outfield. A Sweeney/Terrero/Suzuki outfield would be just outstanding. Well, I'm not as high on Ichiro as several others seem to be. I don't like the idea of paying my leadoff hitter $13 million annually. But notice when I said I could live with Terrero/Rowand/Sweeney, that was with the qualification that we were signing Mark Buehrle. I don't know if we sign Mark we can afford Ichiro as well. I guess that depends on your Dye and ___ for Billingsly and Betemit scenario, whereby we could play Betemit at second and Fields at third.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:07 PM) As of a few days ago I have begun advocating Terrero for starting CF in '08. He has all the tools to be a pretty decent starting outfielder especially in center and his very small contract would allow for greater financial flexibility in the offseason. His arm would make him most valuable in right or center. With Dye leaving soon, it might be best to put Terrero in right even and signing a center fielder, and placing Sweeney in Left. If Mark could be signed for something reasonable, I might even be able to get behind something like Terrero in right, Rowand in center (*gasp* as a lower-tier FA cf option), and Sweeney in left.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:04 PM) I'd much rather not pay $10M a year for a bullpen arm especially one who can't locate his strikeout pitch and throws in the high 80's. Contreras would be a disaster in the pen on a few levels. That's not the way it needs to be looked at, however. I think everyone can agree that any possible way we could stabilize our bullpen this season would be worth it at this point. Obviously, you don't want to think about it as spending $10 million for a bullpen arm, but hey, you get it done anyway you can. Our payroll is going to stay the same regardless of who plays what roles. If those roles can be shuffled to create more wins, you've got to do what you've got to do.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 12:52 PM) We have no one in the minors who we could realistically expect to come up to the big league team as a starter and put up an ERA under 4.50. The best move we could make with Contreras is to try and trade him. I've actually thought of trying to move one of our current starters to the bullpen with the way the pen has been pitching. Jeesh, I've racked my brain so badly I've even thought of actually lettiing our starters pitch a few innings between starts in lieu of making their side sessions... Obviously, Contreras would be the obvious candidate were something like this to happen. Keep an eye out for Gavin Floyd, as he has been throwing the ball well and could benefit from a callup considering how poorly the team is playing and rapidly falling out of any sort of contention. I do worry about Contreras ever being able to come out of the pen though given his propensity to avoid contact at times. It's not a terrible idea, but at this point, we're better off keeping Jose in the rotation. And outside of a few outings (3?), Jose has been a pretty solid starter for us this season.

Kalapse, Judging from what you think of Betemit, is it safe to say you'd be willing to see what Terrero can do in either LF or CF next year?

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 12:03 PM) A career .771 OPS in the majors and he's 25 years old. That's a higher OPS than Crede put up for the first 5 seasons of his career. He has huge power potential, is making nothing and has yet to enter his prime. 2 major league pieces are greater than 1 and a prospect, I'm also quite skeptical as to whether the Sox could get a second high upside prospect along with Billingsley for just Dye that just seems like too steep a price to pay. Atleast with Betemit you know he's expendable. The way you make hay with these trade deadline deals is to acquire high-upside prospects that could turn into stars. At least that's the way I look at it. Wilson Betemit is not going to be the player that leads to future success for this organization. If Billingsly came back in a deal for Dye, I can live with getting Betemit. But I'd rather take my chances on someone who can blossom into something more than Betemit.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 11:55 AM) I'm telling you Billingsley and Betemit for Dye and _________ would be an absolutely ideal trade. A talented young starter to plug into the rotation next year at near league minimum salary and a power hitting 25 year old infielder to put at 2B (he homered again yesterday, up to 6 in ~100 AB) who is also a Pre-Arb player. A deal like that could set the Sox up for a good push next season. I'd rather take a chance on a high-upside prospect than Betemit. His OBP is admirable, but I'm just going to get excited about a career .760 OPS guy in both the minors and the mlb. He's basically Tadahito without the speed.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 12:16 AM) Agreed. People should read the St. Louis blog post again...given how much talent costs in the FA market these days no team is going to give up multiple top prospects for 2 months of Mark Buehrle. The St. Louis fans suggestion of 1) Reyes and a B grade prospect or even 2) Ryan Franklin and 2 B grade prospects are pretty close to what I expect the Sox to get back. Let's remember, KW doesn't exactly drive a hard bargain when dumping players in-season (think Durham for Adkins). The Sox MO is to move the player so that they don't get nothing in return (they won't offer arbitration because they don't want to pay extra draft picks) and given that mindset they take lower grade prospects since they feel they have no leverage. I've got to disagree. I've got to thing Buehrle will bring back something similar to what Kenny paid in Freddy Garcia, maybe slightly less because of the ridiculous $ free agent pitchers are bringing. Mark will at least net a top prospect in return, if not a top prospect and some "high-upside" low level minors guys. If not, we may as well sit on him and hope to get some PR credit out of making a "serious effort" at resigning him.

QUOTE(dasox24 @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 11:00 PM) I think most people think that, which is why I'd accept a trade of lesser talent, just not prefer it. However, that package I listed of what the Mets would have to give up is not even as good of a package as the Indians got for Colon, though I guess Buerhle is a FA at the end of the year, which Colon was not at the time. Well, that certainly was a steal for Colon, but that was an incredibly interesting situation in Montreal when that trade was made. Minyana was trying to get a playoff birth to stave off contraction with no concern for his farm system whatsoever. Additionally, Grady Sizemore, the player he is now, was not much of anything at the time he was dealt. The real prize was thought to be Phillips- even Lee wasn't projected to be as good as he has been. That deal turned out to be a steal for the Tribe, but no one thought at the time of the deal that Sizemore would turn out to be the superstar he has become...

Another thing I stumbled upon today was an Orioles forum where some pretty knowledgeable O's fans are advocating a trade of Tejada to the White Sox. I'm sure this comes from deductive reasoning, as we have shown interest in Tejada in the past, Kenny has shown the desire to acquire star vets with impact potential at the deadline, etc.. They were suggesting something along the lines of Gio/Fields/Uribe. Personally, I think that's a bit steep, but given the dislike by *some* for Gio and Fields around here, would anyone consider something along the lines of Tejada and a bullpen arm for Gio/Fields? You keep Uribe and move Tejada to third presumably. Of course, this is all moot should we never come out of this funk. But should we string a nice little streak together?

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 04:58 PM) That's why Cleveland locks up their young players in their 3rd full year giving them long term contracts that buyout all arbitration years as well as their first year or two of free agency. It's a risky move since you're giving a lot of money to young players who have yet to really establish themselves in the league but if these guys do continue to be studs they have them locked up long term for a below market value price. Hafner seems to be the first one of the Cleveland studs to be unwilling to trade security for below-market value, probably due to the fact that he's a bit older than the others. Looks like the money was definitelty worth it for VMart and Sizemore...the jury is still out on Peralta.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 04:59 PM) I don't think I'd trade Buehrle for Weeks. Starting pitchers like Buehrle don't grow on trees and Weeks is no sure fire thing. I realize some people aren't as huge of Buehrle fans as me, but he's got insane value. He'd easily get 15 or so per year over 5 years on the open market and I'd imagine you could get the two best prospects at a minimum for him. The problem is the Brewers would have little chance or desire to match what Buehrle gets on the open market after 07', so they likely are looking at him as a two-month rental. Hard to justify trading Weeks for a rent-a-player (even Buehrle) when your franchise is just starting to build upon all its young players. That said, were they they to believe they have a chance at the postseason.... Believe me, if Gallardo was possible, I'd be all over it...but I am certain he's untouchable. Weeks, on the other hand...

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 04:39 PM) I am just going to go out on a limb, and not try to be mean. Threads Soxtalkers are sick of: 1) Rowand back to the White Sox 2) Buehrle headed to the Cardinals ... am i forgetting any? "Another White Sox Loser?" Honestly, I thought the article was interesting for two reasons: a) it chronicles just how few times a guy like Mark Buehrle gets dealt midseason, which is a very real possibility for this team whether you choose to like it or not; and B) it's always good to remind ourselves how we and others view players in our own system. If you're sick of the thread topic, why even open it?

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 04:30 PM) 1.) LaPorta can not be traded until next year since he was drafted during the 2007 season. 2.) Weeks and prospects? You're not getting a franchise talent like Weeks straight up for Buehrle let alone with a couple of pieces included. He's had some injuries since taken over the starting role but he's still 24 and insanely talented. That being said, I'd deal Buehrle straight up for Weeks right now if the deal were on the table. 1) My bad....Steve Phillips leads me down the wrong path again... 2) Unfortunately for Weeks, most of his allure comes from his power AND speed potential. However, if he can't ever get his wrist problems solved, he's basically every other second basemen in baseball. I'm not saying this would be a fair deal if Weeks fulfills his potential. Just suggesting maybe the Brewers may get frustrated with him or gamble on making a playoff run. I'm certain they remember the 06' World Champions coming out of their division with 83 wins...