iamshack

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 12:52 AM) The troubling part for the Sox, especially for KW, is that KW will never really concede. Like someone said earlier, he'll just "re-tool", never rebuild. Thats where he really needs to make the decision. Clearly, him sitting on the fence isn't providing a winner. So, either go for it and add someone to put us over the top, or start dealing the expiring contracts and the veterans for top level prospects. Unfortunately, I see a similar fate for Brian Anderson as Joe Borchard's. Well, that's one of the reasons I love KW. I truly believe with this starting pitching and offense we have, we'll put a few streaks together.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 12:44 AM) Because Ozzie Guillen would still be manager? I understand Ozzie still controls the lineup card, but I would hope that that is where Kenny would say enough is enough and let this kid play so maybe I can actually get something of value for him for this team next year.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 12:39 AM) While he may not be getting the hits, his approach has been pretty refreshing. He doesn't try to pull the ball and the threat of a bunt is always there. I really think he could become a Kenny Lofton type guy if he develops. You put Erstad in LF, Owens in CF, Sweeney in RF, then go out and sign a guy like Ichiro, Hunter, or Andruw Jones this offseason with the extra money and move Owens to LF. Sounds like a good enough plan to me. Tell me this....if you're trading Dye and basically conceding 07', why the heck do you play Erstad and not Brian Anderson?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 12:27 AM) In a perfect world, or in an idealistic-realistic type world (lol), we'd realize the positions in which we have guys waiting in the wings. Those being 3B and RF, and to an extent, LF. We deal Crede for some middle infielders, Dye for some relievers, and hopefully we can get something for Podsednik. You plug in Fields, Sweeney, and Owens and use what you got from the deals and build around that. And if we don't think Buehrle can be re-signed, we should try to get something for him too. Because the way he has been throwing, we could rape a team desperate for pitching help at the deadline. I agree with you there- it only makes sense to pave the way for guys that can step in on the cheap. I'm just of the opinion that Fields hasn't conquered AAA because of a great May, and that Joe does enough with his glove to keep him in the starting lineup. I also have to believe that you've got to give Joe every chance possible to heat up so you can actually get some value for him. I don't want to deal Dye for any sort of relievers. Unless you're talking Jonathan Broxton and Saito from LA or something. I'd rather deal him for a ss and a 2b or a young corner OF. And I certainly don't understand what Owens has shown which gives him the edge over BA or Terrerro right now.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 12:26 AM) I still think Garland and Buehrle are two guys you continue to build around and extend, stick with Vazquez another two years and move Contreras in the off-season with Danks hopefully ready to be the #4 next year and Gio or someone else entering as the #5. Than when Vazquez is ready to be dealt, you hope another guy is ready to earn a spot in the rotation. I disagree in regards to Buehrle. I just think the similarities to Zito have priced him out of what is reasonable and acceptable to pay a starting pitcher (at least one not named Johan). But Garland you might be able to get to before he gets to the crazy numbers like that. If I were Kenny, I would seriously consider approaching him with a 3/36 or maybe even a 3/39 which goes into effect in the 09' season (if that is allowed under CB rules? If not, which wipes out his third year next year of his current deal).

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 12:21 AM) I do agree with you that it would be nice to infuse the team with a lot of young talent via a trade of Crede and Dye (and I still think if you do ti right you could still contend, assuming you work on building up the pen as well). The Twins, Braves and A's and a few other clubs have proven that you can get by with inexpensive or young players if you have solid starting pitching and defense, which we should. While JD's bat will be missed, and Crede's glove will be missed more than most care to realize, I think if we make the moves for the right sort of young players, we can still remain competitive. But please, please, please address the middle infield void in our system somehow. Drafting Chris Getz seven times doesn't do it for me.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 11:59 PM) Garland is the f***ing man. He's been the best pitcher on the southside over the past 2 seasons (plus what has been of this season). Agreed. I think it may be time to start thinking of extending him again rather than even messing with Buehrle.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 12:02 AM) I haven't watched much of Abreu this year and I know he's been bad, but assuming his tools are still there for the most part I would not be opposed to this move. However, it would be under the circumstances that the Sox would get some serious cash and that the deal would potentially be part of a bigger swap (with the Sox at least getting one additional prospect or player that could help them out now or in the future). I also buy on the Yanks considering to make the move just to unload Abreu (plus I think Bobby would play better on the southside than he does in New York). Again this is on the basis that the Yanks would send substantial money Chicago's way (in no way do I think the move makes the Sox a better team today, but I do think it would allow them to ensure a better lineup for the next couple years). I guess I would be more trusting of Abreu's talents returning if I hadn't believed much of his success was based upon steroid use. The guy has been an absolute stud in nearly every facet of the game for so many years now, that his body has got to be on the decline as well. I just am extremely weary about him, especially considering his salary and his alleged connections to steroids in the past. I can live with trading JD if we are not contending in a month. But if we do it, let's get some young middle infielders with potential in return instead of just another declining veteran.

I have absolutely no problem with giving Fields a shot. But I certainly am in favor of giving Joe a little more slack than 150 ab's this season before dismissing him as terrible. Our entire offense is basically horrible thus far, with the possible exception of Thome. Why Joe is suddenly the one guy not worth sh*t is beyond me. If nothing else, he helps us tremendously with his glove. Fields' time will come. But I think Joe has earned a bit more than the treatment he is getting around here.

QUOTE(IowaSoxFan @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 03:38 PM) I would agree with the 25th ranking. We dont have any impact players in the minors. We have a bunch of players that will need to be brought along slowly like we did with Rowand and Crede. There is no Andy LaRoche, Ryan Braun, Brandon Wood, type of player. I think it is time for a new GM, KW has made the organization top heavy, I guess I shouldnt say made as it has been that way for a long time. But what this or any other organization needs is to have a solid minor league organization to draw starters from. The most consistent teams in the league do this quite well. Atlanta brought up Johnson and Thorman this year, and have Salty, Elvis Andrus, Gregor Blanco waiting in the wings. The Mets have Lastings Milledge, Fernando Martinez, Carlos Gomez, and Deolis Guerra. The way to mainain an organization is to build from the minors and sprinkle in parts through free agency, thats the only way you can remain competitive year in and year out, otherwise you are locked into too many bad contracts that are unmovable, as the Yankees have done(though they have developed their minor league system at the same time). No manager could win with the way these players are playing so there is no reason to fire Ozzie unless KW goes first, at that point a new GM should be able to bring in his own guy to run his players. The White Sox have remained competitive for the past 15 years, and every year of Kenny's tenure. As we all know, very few of our impact players have come from our farm system. Name all of the bad contracts KW has handed out. Don't compare this organization under Kenny's reign to that of the Yankees. He's run it far more smoothly than that organization has been run.

QUOTE(Wedge @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 05:27 PM) The bullpen, even on paper, is not talented and un-justifiable on a team that considered it a serious divisional contender. Than you haven't looked at the bullpen of the team leading our own division right now.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 05:19 PM) They were good moves, but it shows you that wheeler dealer Williams is more of a myth than the truth. He rarely takes gambles. The Garcia move was bold, but he had Ozzie around so he knew Freddy would sign, other than that all the above moves would have been made by 99% of this board if they were presented with them and had the authority to execute them. Signing guys cheap is only going to get you a good move if it works out at all, or a doesn't matter if it blows up in his face. Nobody mentions the minor league free agents he signed in the 2005 offseason to compete for a job. They all sucked, but it doesn't get marked a bad move because he risked nothing. The bullpen then sucked so it was a horrible move not to get someone who could get outs. Bottom line is KW is responsible for the roster. If the roster is lacking in talent or isn't playing up to par then its on him. He basked in the glory of the WS title, now he should be ready to take heat for what looks like total failure. I disagree. Kenny is responsible for putting the talent on the field. If he doesn't do that, then it is on him. But when the players flat out sh*t the field, that's the players who need to be accountable, not the GM. What happened to the idea of accountability by the players?

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:53 PM) Why don't you go ahead and list all off the "crappy" trades that KW has made. EDIT: Forgout about the Foulke/Koch deal. That would be two. Still waiting to see more... Didn't we get Cotts in the Foulke deal though? One could argue with what has happened with Foulke that getting Cotts back (and his performance in 05') evened out that deal quite a bit....

QUOTE(LVSoxFan @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:33 PM) My argument is simple: what has Thome provided, seeing that he is supposedly the "upgrade"? Yeah I like watching his HR bombs too. What else has he provided? Those slap hits? Baserunning? His Go-Go White Sox attitude and clubhouse leadership? I'm not even slamming him. I'm telling some of you to open your eyes. I don't deny that Thome goes through some maddening performances from time to time. But don't confuse him with Sammy Sosa and claim he only tacks on statistics after the game is long over. He's a great hitter because he reaches base both by hitting, walking, and homering. The Giants, in those years Bonds was putting up historical seasons, failed to win a World Championship. Does that mean he wasn't an absolutely fearsome, machine-like hitter (put aside the fact that he was cheating for a moment, the numbers are the numbers)?

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:23 PM) See Alex Gordon for an example, he was SUPPOSED to be ROY and the best 3B prospect in all of baseball, along with Braun I guess. And many think Braun won't end up being a third basemen because he can't field for crap. But he, unlike Fields, had absolutely nothing to prove offensively in the minor leagues anymore. QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:27 PM) It's a freaking joke that we didn't get him playing time in LF during the offseason and then in Spring Training. Why the hell is it a joke if you want him to be the heir apparent to Crede? He hasn't figured out 3b entirely yet, let alone the OF now.

QUOTE(LVSoxFan @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 03:51 PM) Excuse me for being harsh here, but I've had enough. Overrated? Overrated? I'll tell you who's overrated: Jim Thome. Coming off a WS championship season we got rid of a fan favorite, a clubhouse favorite, a textbook grinder and a guy who, to many, defined what the 2005 Sox attitude was all about. His hitting could be streaky, but I don't think anybody had problems with his outfield play and I specficially remember him putting on a goddamn outfield CLINIC in NY at Yankees stadium that year, where even A-Rod had to give him props. So we got rid of him and got... Jim Thome. Nothing against Jim Thome as a person--he's a class act--but what has he delivered? He was pounding them first half '06 and then faded away into non-factor. He can't hit clutch. He can't bunt or hit for percentage. Talk about the definition of feast or famine, HR or nothing. I can't count how many times he's been struck out pitching low & inside, and he's so predictable that the SS moves into RIGHT FIELD. This year? Pretty much the same so far. Oh, and he can't play the field. He is a batter only who can kinda play 1B. How this fell in with our smart/small/Ozzieball philosophy back then I never figured out, but if you asked me now, knowing now what we know, would I have made that trade? No way. So I'm really not that receptive to hearing how overrated Rowand is. As it is, it looks like we have two choices: try and save the season, or white flag it and build for the future. Rowand is an inexpensive way to attempt to former. Why not? I can't believe it wouldn't electrify both the fans and the clubhouse. You think his 2005 mates won't be thrilled to see him? Oh, and Thome will STILL BE HERE. Win/win for me. Thanks. DO IT. Rowand leaving and the White Sox not winning a championship last year is nothing other than pure coincidence, nothing else.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:05 PM) Meh, he hasnt exactly sucked. .279 .392 .889 10 bombs. He has also been raking in May. And he still needs to work on his defense as well as shortening his swing. Bringing Fields up to replace Crede should be the LAST move that's made. Not the first. This team isn't losing games because of Joe Crede. It's losing games because of Jermaine Dye/Paul Konerko/the bullpen/Thome being injured. You don't replace stellar defensive players making reasonable salaries as your first attempt to shake things up. You just don't. QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:11 PM) Personally, I think Fields is going to be a strikeout machine, but I think the Sox should see what they have with him pretty soon if they aren't going to trade him. You might as well do it now. Its not like they'll be losing much, Crede has been awful. Not losing much? You can screw up his value by bringing him up to early and having him suck. You can also ruin the kid's confidence by throwing him in the deep end too early. Let the kid develop where he belongs. He isn't the savior.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:00 PM) This isnt a winning team. Fields has not even proven he is ready to play! This isn't like a Ryan Braun situation or a Ryan Howard situation. The kid still has plenty to improve upon in Charlotte and should do so until we have either no Joe Crede on the club anymore, or we get to September call ups.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 12:44 PM) How long do we keep making our #1 priority be 2007? I don't think anyone is ruling out the possibility entirely of bringing up some kids and trading away some veterans to get younger. But if 07' isn't your priority, than why do these moves have to occur now anyway? If the objective is to build for 08' or 09' even, you've got to keep playing the vets and hope they get hot at the plate so you can get some value for them closer to the deadline. Dealing them now does nothing but lessen the bounty you get in return, and potentially hurt the confidence of young kids who aren't ready to play at a major league level quite yet. If you want Fields in 08', let him get his act together in AAA as long as possible- don't force him to try and get it together against major league pitching.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 11:25 AM) It's probably also worth adding that the Twins have managed to pull a few pitchers off of other teams who have turned out pretty good as well. Liriano, Nathan, Bonser, Santana, Reyes, etc. Well, they are developing them in a sense, even though they didn't draft them. Perhaps they are good at "identifying" young arms. Perhaps that would be a better way to put it.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 10:30 AM) I thought you wanted to sign Dye to a $60 million, four year contract last offseason? I'm glad that move didn't go down, we'd really be in for some trouble. In answer to your question, NO. And this whole "Twins" system thing is overrated...Punto, Bartlett and Castillo came from other teams and/or minor league systems. Same with Jason Tyner. Lew Ford came from the Red Sox. Rondell White, ditto. We don't need their system, we need Gardenhire, but that's not going to happen either. You do have to give them some credit for David Ortiz, but something obviously held him back in the Twin Cities, right? He went from an average, overweight AL DH to the most-feared hitter in the American League in the span of two years. Otherwise, you're left with Mauer, Cuddyer, Hunter and Morneau...all great players. But we could compare that to, well, Magglio, Carlos Lee, Crede and Rowand, coming up quite a bit short (although both of those former Sox outfielders would look good about right now, but not for those salaries and contract years). Well, they certainly didn't have to develop Mauer. They got lucky by being priced-out of Prior in the first place and even drafting Mauer. The Twins do well with developing young pitching, and yet still, they have their Sidney Ponson's they have to throw out there at any given time. But then again, I already went through this yesterday....

Why the hell are we going to trade Joe while his value is this low to bring up a guy who has shown he isn't ready offensively, and would be a step down defensively? Of all the players struggling at the plate right now, why the hell is it necessary to trade Crede?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 10:56 PM) It appears you are one of those guys who thinks KW can do no wrong. That's fine. I disagree with you, and think winning the title has gone to his head. Honestly, it isn't that I am a person who thinks KW can do "no wrong." Admittedly, I happen to believe the vast majority of moves he makes are extremely well-calculated and clever. He's managed to constantly keep this club contending without having any bad contracts, which is one of the most primary duties of any GM. I also believe he is extrememly shrewd in buying low and selling high. I admire his aggressiveness and his dedication. I love how he goes after big name players but also is smart enough to take gambles on guys who are coming off injuries or poor years but still have talent. I don't defend him because I like him, but rather, I like him because I happen to agree with his moves an awful lot. I also understand that stuff happens that is out of his control entirely, and to place blame on him after the fact is irresponsible. QUOTE(Friend of Nordhagen @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 11:34 PM) I'm not sure if it went to his head, but Williams has always had a little case of the "I'm smarters" -- I suppose you need some of that as a GM, but it overtook him this offseason. His strong, and publicly expressed, contempt for the price of pitching -- particularly starting pitching -- made him do something with very bad consequences: he ditched experienced starters for minor league starters, as opposed to for position players or bullpen help. THAT was the aspect of sacrificing this year for future years that seemed pretty obvious at the time. If you're going to jettison Garcia and McCarthy, but not use those guys to bring back an outfielder to replace Podsednik or Anderson, or a veteral bullpen guy -- then you're putting your chips on projects like Sisco, Aardsma and Erstad. True enough he got Danks, but he did that for years 2008 through 2012, not 2007. And now those decisions are coming home to roost. To be honest with you, the Phillies have absolutely no bullpen help they could have given us. That's why they wanted Macdougal for Rowand. Texas isn't exactly the bullpen capital of the world either, although I would have loved to get back Osuna. Wasn't happening there. I think he made the right move in going after young pitching. While this organization was fairly set in positional players (either because we have signed players in their primes, or because many thought the strength of our positional prospect stable was OF's), people bemoaned the lack of young starting pitching talent in the system, which is exactly what he went and got. While I never understood the fascination with Floyd, I think Gio will turn out to be a solid #2, and partner with Danks and Vazquez for the next 3-4 seasons very well.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 11:16 PM) I don't know maybe Coop should have been fired but at no point in time during the year did the entire pitching staff pitch well below the reasonable expectations bestowed upon them all at the same time. At no time last year did the Sox rank dead last in the American League in pitching. Considering the personnel Cooper had last season I'm really not surprised at the struggling that took place. And to say that firing a hitting coach and the offense turning it around at about the same time is only coincidence is an opinion not a fact. In my opinion getting a new voice in the hitter's ears at this point in time could do wonders for the lineup. I'm not saying it would be a fact. I'm merely saying that if he is really one of the best hitting coaches in baseball as we are consistently told he is (how we could somehow know whether or not that is true is practically impossible), I'm not willing to fire him on the "chance" that our hitters "may" start hitting again. QUOTE(Soxfest @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 11:18 PM) It is called accountability and someone has to be! Yes. THE PLAYERS? What a novel concept!

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 11:08 PM) When you have had the lead in games as much as the White Sox have, and the bullpen gives them away, the lack of improvement from a weakness the previous season becomes even more magnified. The team may not be hitting, but there are so many games lost where if the bullpen was half as good as what the GM said, the Sox would have won. Shapiro I am sure understood his bullpen was a weakness. KW was preaching his was a strength. Its a big difference. If he really expected this particular group to be lights out, his judgement has to be questioned. Of course we don't know if he really truely believed that. Kenny was not running around all offseason claiming he had assembled the best bullpen ever. He defended himself on the McCarthy trade, by asking Sox fans and the media to trust his scouts in accepting the guys he got back. I think, for the most part, that trust has shown to be well-deserved. Three weeks ago the bullpen was a strength of this team. Unfortunately, the last three weeks it has been a huge weakness. The baseball season is long and I am not going to simply pronounce the entire bullpen a complete failure based on three weeks. Get a few things sorted out, get our offense on a roll, take some of the pressure off, get some guys' confidence up, and things can get turned around. I still like the group Kenny has put together, sans Erstad. I'm going to give them more than 50 games before I start claiming he was all wrong.