iamshack

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Dec 26, 2006 -> 01:31 PM) So they can just reload, but its impossible for the Sox too? They have to find and fill a couple spots, while some of there already filled spots are also considered question-marks (imo) yet the Sox who have one spot to fill (while the other 4, when on are some of the better pitchers in all of baseball in addition to being relatively proven commodities) and we have a gripload of arms to go with. And if none of them pan out quickly, we have the talent and cash to jump on a quick deal to fix the hole (if it needs to be). The only thing I'd like to see us do is find a way to get an extra bat which would help give the club a little time while the 5th starter develops and some of our younger relievers develop. Exactly. The Twins are given a pass because of what they have done in the past (honestly, what does that have anything to do with the players they have now?), yet, the White Sox could not possibly come up with an adequate 5th starter because of what has happened in the past (and what does Dan Wright, Arnie Munoz, et al., have to do with Floyd, Danks, Haegar, et al.?). This just makes no sense. I wouldn't say the Twins could be "down a bit." I would say the White Sox might be "down a bit." The Twins have major issues; we do not.

SoxHawk, How can you possibly tell me that the Twins did not get worse? Radke retired and Liriano is down with an injury. They will be relying on Carlos Silva, Scott Baker, Matt Garza, and Boof Bonser. They most certainly got worse.

I don't give a s*** how old Contreras is; his arm is still fine, and his work ethic is outstanding. He'll always be an injury risk, but he's a hell of a lot more of a sure thing than some other guys. SoxHawk, do you believe that most baseball people would list us as contenders for the 07' season? Do you think the Tigers, Indians, Twins, Yankees, Red Sox, Rangers, A's or Angels are writing us off right now? You continue to compare the 07' team against the 06' team, rather than with the other teams we actually are competing against. Surely you cannot say that any of these teams are head and shoulders above us talent-wise, can you? Are you claiming that because the 06' team did not win, the 07' team therefore cannot win? As I have said before, that is pure fallacy. It is illogical and silly.

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 26, 2006 -> 11:22 AM) You are of course entitled to your opinion. I will just point out that I don't think there is a person involved in scouting or analyzing prospects, or anyone in baseball who agrees with you. Actually, KW seems to agree, since he made the deal, and explicitly stated the same. QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 26, 2006 -> 11:22 AM) Actually, what I said is that KW's moves have made our chances of contending "more remote," as in we have less of a chance of contending in 2007 than we did before KW's moves this offseason. Yes, I realize you said "more remote." And what that implies is that they were "remote" in the first place, which I happen to disagree with. The Pirates chances are remote; the Royals chances are remote; the Devil Rays and Orioles chances are remote; etc., etc. I happen to believe our chances were, and continue to be, fairly good. And by that I mean as good as anyone else's in baseball at this point. Jesus, look no further than the Cardinals last year for evidence of that. QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 26, 2006 -> 11:22 AM) Say what you will about these trades KW has made. Feel free to recognize that KW has restocked our minors with some really good top pitching prospects. And yes the future of Sox pitching looks good because of it. But at the same time, let us not pretend that KW has not made the 2007 Sox team worse in the process. You are missing the point. As has been stated several times now, simply because the 07' team may not be as strong as the 06' team on paper, certainly does not mean that it cannot be good enough to win in 07'. That much is blatantly obvious. And if, as I believe, the team is still good enough to win in 07', than I am happy as a pig in slop that we have fortified ourselves for 08' and beyond with these moves. This idea that the 07' team needs to be improved over the 06' team in order to make the playoffs is pure fallacy.

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 26, 2006 -> 10:52 AM) I think it is pretty clear that McCarthy is a hell of a lot better than Haeger, Phillips or Floyd. I don't. My apologies but last season's effort in the bullpen didn't do much to convince me of anything about McCarthy. And his 7 starts in 05' are not enough to be "pretty clear" about anything. Haeger's numbers in AAA are very impressive. While he doesn't come with the pedigree that McCarthy does, I can't say it is clear at all that he couldn't put up numbers very similar to those of McCarthy- at least w/l and ERA. QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 26, 2006 -> 10:52 AM) Yes, they can contend with this team. Yes, anything can happen. Of course there are many variables. But by decreasing the talent level of the major league team in 2007, KW has made that team's chances to contend more remote. I don't think the word "remote" accurate describes our chances at all. I would use the phrase "fairly good" to describe them.

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 26, 2006 -> 10:16 AM) There is a lot of room for debate over which pitcher will eventually be better. But I think all evidence, common sense and rationality tells you that in 2007, McCarthy >> Danks. But that isn't necessarily the question to ask in regards to the 07' season. It may be instead who is better this year, McCarthy or Haeger? McCarthy or Floyd? McCarthy or Phillips? I don't believe it is a foregone conclusion that Brandon is going to significantly outpitch whomever wins the starting job for us out of ST. It's probably more likely that he will produce better numbers; but as for how significant they will be, well, that is a different story. Secondly, and not to beat a dead horse here because this has been argued here on several occasions in recent weeks, but it isn't a fact that this team needs to be upgraded in 07' to reach the playoffs. The team was upgraded in 06', and didn't win. It's nearly impossible to tell with any certainty right now how the division will play out this season. And everyone wants to harp on the fact that the WS finished in third place last season; yet they forget that our WS won 7 more games than the eventual World Series champions. Unfortunately, we don't play in the NL Central, but simply because 90 wins wasn't enough to get it done last year, doesn't mean it won't be enough this year. With better performances from Mark and Jose, no one can say with any certainty whatsoever that this team won't make the playoffs this year. They have plenty of talent to do so.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 07:50 PM) I assume you meant that BP would bash KW because of this deal? Quite the opposite. In fact, the past couple deals -- for Gonzalez, Floyd, Sisco, and now Danks/Masset -- has made KW a lot of fans in some 'saber-circles' (right or wrong). Neyer will love this deal because Haeger may well get his shot in the rotation. I dunno if anyone has mentioned this, but this basically guarantees that Mark is gone after 07'.

QUOTE(whitesoxin @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 07:23 PM) Yeah, but still..it's the principal of the trade that irks me. We wouldn't trade B-Mac to the Rays for Crawford/Rocco, but we'll put our chips all-in on prospects? What makes you so sure that Crawford/Rocco were available for Brandon?

This has to mean that Crawford was just not available for McCarthy + right now. It also has to mean that someone has an awful lot of confidence in Gavin Floyd and Charlie Haeger. BTW, for everyone jumping off a ledge in regards to 07', do you really think there is going to be THAT much difference between what Brandon would have accomplished and what his replacement does? Brandon v. Charlie Haeger? I doubt the difference would be as large in wins and losses and many here would believe.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 19, 2006 -> 01:44 PM) And I agree with you. Wells superlatives are proven, Rios is pure speculation. Actually, Wells has had only two good seasons out of six. He's been inconsistent in his career, far more so than guys with similar contracts (Beltran, Soriano). I understand where you are coming from Rock, but I don't think it is even a question when you consider one guy is making 6 figures while another is making 8.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 19, 2006 -> 12:15 PM) You are looking too much at other factors, Rios doesnt even come close to the player that Wells is, not even close. I would take Wells in both of those scenarios. GG defense, huge offensive power, yes yes yes. I know Wells has had some very nice years, but he has had some not so nice years as well. Wells is certainly a desirable guy to have, but considering he isn't any real measurable amount better than Anderson defensively in CF, you are paying $100 million for the offensive upgrade, that the team doesn't necessarily need right now. That may change with the coming departures of Dye, Thome, and Crede eventually, but I think I would take my chances on trading for Rios as a corner OF, hoping BA will develop offensively, and saving my cash. You continue to ignore Rios pricetag and huge upside.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 18, 2006 -> 04:54 PM) Wells in one of the best players at his position, Garcia simply isnt. That's completely irrelevant. You're overlooking so many other factors in what makes up a player's trade value. If you could have either player, Wells for 1 year guaranteed, or Rios for 4 years guaranteed. are you telling me you would take Wells? And further, if you could have Rios for 4 years for an absolute bargain, or Wells, and pay him close to 60 million, you'd still take Wells?

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 18, 2006 -> 04:08 PM) Because wells>Rios. If it were only that simple. Do you think Freddy has more trade value than Brandon, simply because Freddy > Brandon?

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 18, 2006 -> 03:35 PM) He isnt worth nearly what Wells was worth, and has really only had about 1 half of a good season. I wouldnt expect top packages for him IMO. Not sure why he wouldn't be worth nearly what Wells was worth....Wells had 1 year left on his deal and was widely speculated to want to sign long-term in Texas, or stay in Toronto (although that offer they gave him was unexpected). Not many teams would've felt comfortable dishing out the sort of cash Wells would have demanded considering his open desire to return to Texas or stay in Toronto. Meanwhile, Rios was a highly touted prospect until probably late 05', when he was struggling. The Jays tried to deal him last offseason, but were unsuccessful. He had a breakout first half in 06', and his poor second half is chalked up to a nasty staph infection. I don't believe many teams view that as much of a detriment to his potential ability or say he only had a "nice half." He is 4 years from FA, with 5-tool ability. The primary reason the Jays would look to deal him is because of his value on the trade market and their need for starting pitching. If his trade value wasn't extraordinarily high in this market, they wouldn't even think of dealing him.

I knew Ross was worth something in trade...

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 14, 2006 -> 06:26 PM) I was told by someone in the Cards organization that one of the reasons they didn't go all out after Schmidt and Suppan is because they're saving up money for Buehrle after this upcoming season. That's interesting, because the Cards were the ones insisting that the Schmidt deal wasn't done the first day it was reported because his agent told them they were still in the running. Apparently, they were making quite an offer to him, despite preliminary reports (which proved to be correct) that he had signed with the Dodgers.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Dec 14, 2006 -> 04:41 PM) From looking at various mets boards, they seem inclined to think Pelfrey isn't the untouchable he once was. They seem to think one of the other pitchers like Maine, Humber, Perez etc would be able to step up as well. I think from everything that has transpired, one would have to think Omar is balking at the idea of giving up Milledge, Pelfrey, or Humber. He's an aggressive GM, and I believe were he able to make a deal he was comfortable with including those guys, he would have by now. That leads me to believe he would rather go with what he has, at least until he finds out if he can get Zito at a discount. Were Zito to be an idiot and go to Texas, then that might force Omar's hand and compel him to give up one or two of Pelfrey/Humber/Milledge.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Dec 14, 2006 -> 02:57 PM) At this point in time, do I realistically see the White Sox winning the World Series? Well, I'd never say never, but with major holes in center field, left field, and short stop among others, at this point I feel as if it's unlikely. Are you seriously contending that the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals did not have any holes? Who was their LF? So Taguchi? They had Chris Duncan playing RF! David Eckstein (not exactly Mr. OPS himself) was their ss. Their pitching was certainly not spectacular. Ronnie Belliard was their second baseman! I'm sorry, but at this stage of the game, the White Sox have every bit as good of a chance of winning the World Series as any other team. QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 14, 2006 -> 03:44 PM) I'm just amazed that I'm hearing Sox management, as well as fans, state that they don't think Pods ever recovered from his hernia surgery. I guess hernia surgery impacts your vision and arm, as Pods inability to swing at the 3rd strike and his pathetic display in the outfield were two of his biggest issues. He obviously struggled with whatever advice he was given to try and draw more walks. He is much better when he is trying to be aggressive and get on base any way possible. Sorry Scottie, but you just don't look at pitches well, my friend. As for his arm, we all knew his arm sucked. Let's not bring it up now as if it didn't suck just as poorly in 05'. I distinctly remember screaming at him when he could not throw out the runner from second base in the 9th inning of Game 2 in the World Series. I would have held a grudge against him for months. Then he went and hit that homerun in the bottom of the inning and 'completely redeemed himself,' to paraphrase Harry from D & D. His defense was porous, but that certainly wasn't helped by the injury. I thought he improved in the second half, however, I know I am in the minority with that observation.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 14, 2006 -> 04:21 PM) I don't even know if the Yanks would give up Cabrera and Hughes for our 3 guys. There is not a chance the Yankees include Hughes. I doubt they would move him for anyone outside of maybe 5 players in the entire league, and neither Garland, nor Crede, nor Broadway are one of them. Additionally, keep in mind that ARod's contract is no longer considered outrageous. Sixteen million per for him is a bargain right now. I am fairly certain that most possible scenarios were discussed at the Winter Meetings, and if a match was possible, it would have happened there.

QUOTE(Al Lopez @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 12:38 PM) I wonder if this makes Otsuka more available in a package for Garland. From what I read, the Rangers are shopping Otsuka around fairly openly....so possibly, yes. Would love to see us shop Buehrle over there for Otsuka, Danks, and Masset.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 12, 2006 -> 10:11 AM) true enough Actually, I have heard/read several reports about Hunter not being close to the defender he once was because of that injury. Also, I don't think he always gets particularly great reads or jumps on the ball. He is great at going back on the ball or stealing home runs, but he doesn't strike me as someone who comes in on the ball particularly well or that takes great routes to the ball. I think he may get pumped up a little because of some of his highlight catches just like Aaron Rowand did. Some of the best CF's don't make a lot of highlight reel catches because they get to the ball so easily because of the routes they take.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Dec 11, 2006 -> 12:12 PM) Career ERA of 4.34, even with his two incredible seasons in Montreal. Career record of 100-105. He's sucked both years he pitched in the AL, also. We're unfortunately in the AL, not in the garbage division that was the NL East when he pitched there. Ooh, he strikes out a lot of guys. Wowie! So does Kerry Wood. It gets really frustrating when people argue both sides of the fence to advocate their positions. So Vazquez sucks because of his 100-105 career record, while Freddy still sucks because of his 116-71 record. What the hell sense does that make?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 10:25 PM) I've never said that. Well, I'm glad not everyone completely discounts their value.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 09:22 PM) And do you think there's a reason why Javy was not discussed further? He's older than Garland, he's getting paid more than Garland, and he had a worse year. Under normal circumstances, it would be a no-brainer that you'd trade Vazquez before Garland, especially if given the same package for both. Instead, Williams seemingly didn't discuss anything regarding Vazquez being traded - I wonder why? Yeah, I think KW likes Vazquez and stubbornly would rather not deal him because that might be admitting the trade for him was a mistake. For whatever reason, KW values him. It isn't THAT difficult to see why; he was very close on several instances last year to really getting on a roll and getting things on track. QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 10:18 PM) Vazquez has over 200 decisions in the major leagues. He had a couple of great seasons in Montreal and a couple of poor ones. The Yankees couldn't fix him, neither could the D-Backs. Even Coop couldn't fix him and he fixes everyone. Expecting Vazquez to be anything more than a .500 pitcher is being overly optimistic IMO. I thought wins and losses didn't matter when analyzing starting pitchers...

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 08:19 PM) I can't believe Vazquez still has so many people fooled. The guy is a born loser. It's obvious in his mental make-up. Javy will never ever live up to his potential. Everything is always black and white to you; ever stop to think maybe everything isn't as simple as you make it out to be?