iamshack

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 06:51 PM) Why make the assumption that either Vaz or Garland or traded? Why do you assume that Vaz is even going anywhere? From everything I've read, the Sox aren't really openly shopping Vazquez at all. If anything, it's Count, Buehrle/Garland, Vazquez, BMac, young guy...and that's if another starter gets dealt. The assumption gets made because both Garland and Vazquez have been rumored to be involved the most. There was information that came out recently that stated that the Houston deal was made from their end for either Jon or Javy.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 05:55 PM) Agreed * 2. If I was to move a starter it'd be Buehrle (if he ain't going to re-sign) or Contreras (but he has a no trade clause). So that leaves Garland or Vazquez. And I figure you get more for the former, although I think Vazquez will have a better season next year, in fact I think he could be our best starter next season possibly, although I know many people won't agree with me on that. Just stay away from that hanging curveball Vaz. Wow, I didn't know there were this many Vazquez supporters in all of Chicago. DB, I've noticed you are all about the Texas prospects. Just a question, why are you so much more in favor of them over Houston's? As a side note, the more I read about Hirsh the less I am impressed. Seems he doesn't bring as much heat as I had thought. From what I have heard from some Astros fans, he has trouble topping 93 or 94. Anyone else concerned about this?

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 11:35 AM) I can definitively say they are not the same person. Joe Cowley is the Chicago White Sox beat writer for the Chicago Sun-Times. Cowley, a graduate of Kent State University, served the same role for the Sun-Times' sister publication, the Tinley Park, Illinois Daily Southtown, for several years before being hired by the downtown paper before the 2006 season. Cowley was one of the regular beat writers covering the White Sox during their 2005 World Series championship. Cowley staged a successful battle against cancer in the winter of 2004-05. He should not be confused with former White Sox pitcher Joe Cowley, who threw a no-hitter in 1986. I'm sorry, I guess I just figured what are the odds? You know what they say when you assume... my bad.

QUOTE(Leonard Zelig @ Dec 10, 2006 -> 10:30 AM) The that the same Joe Cowley who pitched a no-hitter for the Sox? Yep.

He did not necessarily say salary was not an issue *ever*. He meant is wasn't an issue in dealing Garcia. I agree, when guys like Santana and Zambrano are FA's, you have to look into it, and Kenny undoubtedly will. But that doesn't mean that they, also, cannot become ridiculous to sign. If Santana comes out after 08', and wants 6 years, 150 million, would you consider that a smart move? There are limits to what any player is worth.

Ace-quality pitchers do not always come from first round draft choices. I believe Mark was a 38th round draft pick. As you mentioned, Santana was a rule-5 pick. Chris Carpenter was a journeyman. The point is, that aces or frontline starters come from all sorts of sources. While it is advantageous to be able to draft earlier in the draft, it doesn't mean that those guys are going to become aces. The White Sox have begun drafting "safe" pitchers over the last few years. Not hard throwers, but guys that have a very good chance of becoming middle or back end starters. Broadway and McCulloch are examples of that. There is value in having several guys develop into middle rotation guys, as opposed to 1 of every 8 or 10 power arms turn into front rotation guys. As you might see, a middle rotation guy like Jon might end up netting us a front rotation prospect, possibly 2. Garcia just netted us a few guys that can step in. There are several ways this can be done. An ace need not only come through round 1 or 100 million dollar contracts.

I must say I am quite happy with the direction KW is taking. I think we have all enjoyed the past few years where Kenny was able to acquire big name players through trades, and being able to resign some of our favorite players (Pauly, Jose, AJ, Jon, etc). But the writing has been on the wall for some time now that the organization could not go on this way. We have been debating about what to do with several of our guys who need new deals after 07' or 08', but we all know there is no way we were going to be able to keep all of them here. By trading these guys now, we are restocking the farm system, creating some payroll flexibility, and giving ourselves far more options than before. If we would have continued down that path, KW was right, we would have gotten old, pricey, and left ourselves in a position to rebuild. Hopefully this way, we can restock on the fly, meanwhile staying competitive, reaching the playoffs, and as we all saw this October, if you do that, anything can happen.

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Dec 8, 2006 -> 10:17 PM) Props to Steve for creating this thread. Say what you want, but the guy won 41 games in his 2 1/2 years (not including his remarkable posteason) with the Sox. He took the ball every 5th day and, for the most part, gave us a chance to win everytime out. Freddy will indeed be missed. Have fun dominating the pathetic crap that is the NL. Edit: Oh, and I'll never forget the game he threw against the Twins in August (I think) of '05. One of the top 3 or 4 pitching performances I've ever seen from a White Sox pitcher. Heck of a job, Freddy. I agree, say what you will about his first inning troubles, he did a hell of a job in his time here. Here's to maybe seeing you again sometime down the road, old friend.

QUOTE(TheOcho @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 11:08 PM) People need to let that f***ing go. Put yourself in a player's position. If you were an MLB player and were drafted to say ... the angels? Your whole life you were a White Sox fan, born and raised. What is wrong with wearing a Sox hat say at the end of the season? Nothing at all. Now if he actually made a comment like I don't want to be in a White Sox uni anymore or I can't wait til I become a free agent and get to become a card then it would be a new story. I have no problem with him wearing the hat. I also have no problem with Jerry's comment.

QUOTE(spiderman @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:54 PM) It doesn't appear that you read the newspaper very often, but Kenny Williams has said they won't be offering any extensions to their starting pitching. Did you miss that or are you thinking they are going to sign them still ? That would seem to eliminate Garcia and Buerhle from your list. If Crede continues to play well next season, do you expect the White Sox to sign him, given his agent ? So, we're now down to Dye. I hope they resign him, but this is hardly guaranteed. Fair Enough. But you have to realize that salaries across the board on our team escalated this year. Crede, Uribe, Iguchi, Garland, Mark, Dye, AJ, etc.....most of the contracts were slightly backloaded, so we probably picked up about 10 million that way.

QUOTE(spiderman @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:43 PM) Whatever happened to raising the payroll after last season ? Didn't we finish the season at about $100 million ? With the attendance, TV Ratings, and new collective bargaining agreement that has seemed to give other teams $$$$ to burn, why can't we raise our payroll ? The payroll is naturally rising as a result of escalating salaries, arbitration eligible players, etc. Additionally, let's see how the rest of this offseason plays out before we start discussing where our payroll is at.

QUOTE(103 mph screwball @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:40 PM) Agreed. Shut up already. Jerry, KW, and Ozzie have all hurt the organiztion with their comments. I get it, we are back to small market mentality. Horrible move that will cause a downward spiral in attendance again, which will bring the payroll with it. I think Sox fans would tolerate rebuilding when the time came. Selling the car because the price of gas is higher than you want it to be will not be tolerated. Just say that you plan too keep the payroll high and win championships but you can't hold on to everyone. This cry poor crap made me sad when the Cell was half empty, it pisses me off when there is record attendance and high season ticket renewals. They aren't selling the car, just taking the bus a little more often. Seriously, wtf do you mean a small market mentality? That is DRASTICALLY mischaracterizing their actions. QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:41 PM) If Buerhle wants to sign a deal similiar to Garland or the Count he will stay. If he want a 5 year somewhere between Zito and Meche then he will be gone. Never thought I would see a sentence like that....."somewhere between Zito and Meche..." What is the world coming to?

QUOTE(TheOcho @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:37 PM) Yea ... the Buehrle part was kinda a low blow ... not needed. I thought it was great

QUOTE(shoota @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:31 PM) At first I wanted to avoid Bonds out of moral respect for the franchise, but since KW isn't going to improve the 2007 team through trades, we need to do something to stay competitive. He just signed with the Giants for 1 year and 16 million.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:28 PM) Give it up like Reinsdorf does baseball seasons? Seriously, I can't believe that people like the man who helped orchestrate the 94 strike and who tried to move this team to several different cities and even the northside and who pulled the bull he pulled in the late 1990s and who's now crying poor once the fans finally start showing up. He isn't crying poor. We have a $100 million dollar payroll. There are limits to what the White Sox are capable of making, we aren't the Yankees, the Red Sox, the Cubs, or the Mets. It's absolutely irresponsible to accuse him of being cheap when that clearly isn't the case.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:23 PM) We have very fickle fans, and there's been too much said recently about how our fans won't show up if we don't win. Thus, when our fans do show up, it's insulting to hear this type of talk. There was no reason for Reinsdorf to single out Buehrle. If he's so sure that he's going to go to St. Louis, then KW should be trying to trade him in a 3-way deal instead of Garland, who we have here for 2 more years. I'd rather he tell it like it is than bs us every year like Peter Angelos. QUOTE(SoxFanForever @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:25 PM) Haha, and that is a scary thought. Good stuff. Good thing I work on the civil side rather than the criminal side. QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:24 PM) He's a guy who loves white flags. Give it up, seriously.

QUOTE(SoxFanForever @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:22 PM) Indictment too You know, SFF, the really sad thing about that misspelling is? I am going to be an attorney in about 7 or 8 months.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:20 PM) Uh, the players have more to do with that. It's not Bill Veeck's fault that the 1959 White Sox didn't beat the Dodgers and Reinsdorf doesn't deserve anymore credit for the Starting Four of 2005 especially now that he's crying poor and reverting to his true form. What is his true form? He is not the Tribune company. He spends what the team makes, and there is plenty of evidence of that. What do you want from the guy?

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:19 PM) It would be nice if the leaders of this organization would stop whining in the press about salaries. Nothing infuriates a fan base more than having to hear these type of complaints. Someone has to be the voice of reason. Look, I am not big on rich guys whining. But Gil Meche just got $45 million. Enough said. Alot of teams are going to regret their actions of the past month. Let's be glad we aren't going to be one of them.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:16 PM) I've never liked Jerry Reinsdorf. Never will. No one will ever care much for owners. I mean, what's to like? Puts all revenues back into the team, has brought 7 world championships to the City...what an ass...

QUOTE(Mr. Showtime @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:12 PM) Kids, what can you do? WOW! Sort of an inditement of Mark there.

QUOTE(BobDylan @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 01:06 PM) '94? What? Oops, I meant 2004. Sorry, hit the 9 instead of the 0.

QUOTE(heirdog @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 12:55 PM) I think "ShoulderGate" (Sirotka for David Wells) from 2001 will prevent us from any Vernon Wells deals. Maybe we can give them Joe Crede for Troy Glaus and have "BackGate" 2006. That's untrue. We had a deal in place for Carlos Delgado in 94, and Delgado would waive his NTC, and thus, the deal was nixed.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 12:45 PM) Some speculation from rotoworld. These guys honestly are taking shots in the dark just as much as we are....

QUOTE(PlunketChris @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 12:34 PM) Anyone know what Phillies fans think of this deal? They were initially not happy about it, but now seem to be ok with it, especially considering that KW wanted Hirsh in exchange for Garland.