iamshack

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:25 PM) Riske = 6th/7th inning Linebrink = 8th/9th inning It's pretty much as simple as that, it's easier to pitch in middle relief than it is in setup duty. Are you really willing to just accept that premise so easily? *Why* is it necessarily more difficult to pitch in middle relief than in the 8th inning? QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:27 PM) Yes, yes he could. If they were really going to trade him though they could just leave him active until a trade was finalized then it's the new team's responsibility to do whatever they want with him. Ok, just wanted to get that out of the way before we continued on down that road. He is very similar to pitchers the WS like to draft. I just haven't figured out for sure if that is because they ttruly expect to ever use them in the big leagues, or if they just avoid injuries and have the best trade value....

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:16 PM) Since you are apparently a stats guy, if the guy's so fabulous, why does his career line look so much like David Riske's? Total -- 281 6 0 0 340.1 295 122 112 35 123 303 24 8 2 79 14 2.96 Total -- 307 0 0 0 339.0 281 141 131 47 145 332 17 14 16 36 13 3.48 Which of these two stat lines is better? Especially when one is all NL, and the other is all AL? The main thing Linebrink has on Riske is fewer gopher balls, which likely accounts for the difference in runs allowed and ERA. But at least some of that difference would be lessened by park and league adjustments. Otherwise, the WHIPs are essentially identical. Again, I'd take Linebrink over Riske too. I just wouldn't mortgage the farm to get him. Well, the answer that has already been given was that Linebrink pitches in tougher situations in that he pitches in the 8th, whereas Riske is used more in terms of the 6th and 7th. That makes some sense on some levels, but I would need to see more evidence. I think it is possible to surmise that Linebrink pitches in more stressful situations because of his role. I don't necessarily agree though that there are more important situations which occur in the 6th or 7th than in the 8th. I think that may be more of our own creation, with the creation of the closer role and the setup man role, but in reality, there is nothing which says that the most important situations in a ballgame may not take place in the 6th or 7th innings.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:04 PM) A 30 year old top 5 righty setup guy who could push this team over the top And what's the problem with him only having a year left on his deal? The Sox have money, if he kicks ass for the next year and a half like he has for the past 2 and a half, I'm sure the Sox will lock him up. The last thing I'm worried about is '08. Also, who ever said the deal was Fields for Linebrink straight up? It doesn't necessarily have to be that cut and dry. Kalapse...question....I know we have been known to like Cesar Carrillo, as others have mentioned in this thread. I also know they may be shutting him down for the remainder of the season. If that was the case, could he indeed be traded still?

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:54 PM) Neal Cotts, if he pitches the way he did last year consistantly in the future will have insane trade value and value to this team. A dominant lefty setup man is nearly impossible to find and the Sox could possibly have 2. It is interesting that you're able to carry on a conversation with yourself like you did in the second part of you post so I'll move on. If the Sox were able to acquire a top 3-5 righty setup man in baseball like Scott Linebrink it would improve this team to an insane degree. You seem to love Jenks and Cotts which is cool and all but Linebrink has proven WAY more than those two have, Jenks doesn't even have a full season under his belt and on the Cotts front, in many people's eyes he didn't even have a place on this team in the beginning of '05. This team could set themselves up for a huge run by acquiring Linebrink just think about it: 6th/7th: R: Riske L: Thornton 8th/9th: R: Linebrink L: Cotts Closer: Jenks With McCarthy who is arguably this team's 2nd/3rd best starting pitcher right now moving back into the rotation and Garcia being shipped out for another piece. I know you've never seen Linebrink pitch before so this might not mean a whole hell of a lot to you but to those who have seen the man pitch (sans Fathom) they know how exciting the idea of this bullpen alignment is. I agree it would be great and all to have him, especially considering he is one of the 30 or 40 relievers that actually has a history of being successful year after year, but that doesn't mean he is worthy of throwing our best position prospect at the Padres. KW has shown a history of being creative in acquiring our rp. I could see him going after a guy like Linebrink that he likes- supposedly he was after Flash Gordon last year as well- but I don't see him willing to give up Fields after his other relief coups the last few years.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:53 PM) Well said. Honest question -- we've traded better prospects for sp and Jim Thome. Have we traded as good a prospect for a rp? The last time we dealt anything of value at all for an rp was the Foulke for Koch deal. As poorly as that worked out for us at the time, Neal Cotts was a ptbnl in that deal.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:26 PM) Well, this might have something to do with it: Eckstein, SS Taguchi, CF Pujols, 1B (first game back off the DL, looked pathetic.) Rolen, 3B Encarnacion, RF Perez, T, DH Luna, LF Molina, C Miles, 2B Heager could have shut down this lineup. That's bs man. You throw a 8 IP shutout in the big leagues that's pretty damn impressive, I don't give a s*** what lineup it was. Pujols admitted his timing was off, but he still hit a few balls very hard but right at people. He's been bad. There is no getting around that. But s*** gets out of hand around here sometimes...

I agree. Kenny has worked some magic to get Thornton and Riske for spare parts. I can't see him giving away Fields for this now. Once again, the situation just isn't that dire.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 06:03 PM) Give Tracey a shot before Peralta. Tracey looked good to me, aside from having his ass ripped open by Guillen. And his "reverse deceptive" motion.

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 07:26 PM) No he was having a really good year if I remember in Seattle that season... He had a crap year in 03' and a mediocre one in 02'. Miraculously, he was fantastic in 04', his contract year, and the year the White Sox acquired him. Freddy has a problem focusing, not with talent.

I agree DA, but I would like to use Fields for a package that might get us a stud LF back in return. What I don't want KW to do is to deal him for a half season of Mike Cameron. Linebrink is in high demand- every team in contention is calling about him. Bruce doesn't know s***.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 06:12 PM) First, how would Pelfrey rate in comparison to Lumsden and Broadway? Second, Minaya traded Kazmir before for Zambrano and we're going to assume he'll never do anything similar again? Garcia is far more deserving of such a package (atleast compared to Victor), and considering their rotation, who the hell are they to object? If Minaya stays pat, it sucks Tampa ruined it for everyone else. I suppose Sabean will never make any trade involving a decent pitching prospect since he was burned with Liriano. Again, seemingly someone ruined it for the entire league. I just want us to rape another team. Is it that difficult for someone just to abide by my wishes? Minyana didn't make the Kazmir trade, Jim Duquette did. Minyana did trade Bart Colon for Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore, and Cliff Lee though. He has a few more critics watching what he does now though than when he was in Montreal.

Jeesh, I am not stupid enough to claim that Freddy is pitching well right now. But how many big games did the guy win for us late last year? You'd think he kicked all of your mothers the way this thread is going...

QUOTE(SABR Sox @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 04:01 PM) I knwo you didn't, thats all an assumption based on your anti-stat posts. I know what I was responding to, someone who doesn't like stats. I defended my position, you defended yours. It should have been over a while ago. SABR, You haven't defended your position as much as repeat the same things over again in between insulting me once every three sentences. From now on, if you are not going to contribute anything to the thread whatsoever, and you just want to take personal shots at me, feel free to do it via pm rather than forcing the entire Soxtalk.com community to read it.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 03:35 PM) I'd say 3/36 or 3/39 with a 4th year option along with a nice $1.5M/$2M buyout would be pretty damn plausible. Yeah, that is probably more like it. The difference between whether someone can peel him away from Seattle or not probably depends on whether a team is willing to offer him that 4th year or not.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 03:27 PM) He probably wont get the years, but he's he'll get 10+ a year with ease, probably more than that. Considering guys like Paul Byrd got $7 million/yr, yeah he probably will. I imagine something along the lines of 4/50?

QUOTE(shoota @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 02:35 PM) As KW said, the Sox don't need mediocre pitching help, they need dominance. Zambrano is dominant. I'd feel quite comfortable going into the playoffs with Contreras, Buehrle and Zambrano as my top three pitchers. Trading Garcia and Vazquez and only getting one SP in return opens a rotation spot for McCarthy. This makes sense for the Cubs since it improves on their lack of starting pitching depth, and could form a nice 2007 rotation with Prior, Marshall and a FA/rookie filling out their starting five. The Cubs have Aramis signed through 2007 I believe, but he does have an option to opt out of his contract and become a FA. Josh Fields would provide security in the case Aramis walks. Why not turn this into an even bigger trade by acquiring Blanco and Williamson from the Cubs? If the Sox were to get Z, Blanco and Williamson, we'd take over the AL Central in terrorizing fashion. I just don't think the Cubs would ever deal us one of their star players (or even fallen stars such as Prior) simply because of the manner in which it would upset their fans.

QUOTE(Contreras @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 02:06 PM) So all it takes to be an elite base-stealer is the willingness to run all the time and get caught more often than everyone else, wasting valuable outs and being a drain to your own offense? I'm sure Abreu would be willing to run at inappropriate times and get thrown out more often if told to do so. After all, I'm sure he'd love to be called "elite." I didn't write the post you are responding to, but I did post Podsednik's career percentages and Abreu's career percentages. Why did you completely ignore those? And Podsednik really isn't being a "drain" on the offense. He is scoring exactly 50% of the times he gets on base this season, while Abreu, "the runs creating machine" is scoring only 34% of the time he gets in base. I understand it depends who you have knocking in runs behind you, but 59 runs scored after being on base 172 times is absolutely horrific.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 02:03 PM) It's Phillies, Mariners, Rangers, Tigers. There are supposedly two more, too. So I cannot imagine Javier accepting a deal there, even if we did want to send him, which I don't believe we do.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 01:43 PM) What're the other four? IMO, it probably has to do with the Park and the fans, as, historically, he had a problem with hte longball and playing in that bandbox with the Philly fans wouldn't have been good for him. Not sure, but I know Detroit is one of them. The Tigers reportedly had a deal in place for Arizona whereas Detroit would trade Zumaya and Curtis Granderson to Arizona for Vazquez. Vazquez then stepped in and vetoed the deal.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 01:28 PM) Why does he hate Philly? I have no idea. It may be the fans. It may be their park. It may be something that Javy experienced while he was playing for the Expos. I do know that Philadelphia is one of the 5 teams he listed in his NTC though.

QUOTE(Hangar18 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 01:00 PM) This is a trade you might see happen, Vazquez/Pods for Abreu/Myers. Rjemico and Iamshack both bring up excellent points .......... Javy hates Philly and that is one of the teams on his LNTC. I don't know if he can even be dealt there?

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 12:49 PM) I love the personal attacks in this thread, which draws the attention away from how one sided this trade would be. I really don't think we have any intention of dealing Vazquez at this juncture anyways. And given the way this team is performing, it makes little sense to take on more salary right now for offensive players. We need pitching, not offense.

QUOTE(Contreras @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 11:35 AM) They shouldn't be company at all. Compared to all of them, Podsednik runs the bases like Konerko. Steals are fine and dandy, but being caught sucks ass and hurts your team's chances of scoring drastically. Ichiro: 28 steals / 2 caught Reyes: 39 steals / 9 caught Crawford: 32 steals / 8 caught Podsednik: 29 steals / 12 caught As you see, Pods is practically the opposite of the guys you compare him to. No, we don't really need him...But he's gotta be 4 or 5 times more valuable than Pods as a leadoff hitter. As for that "stolen base threat" trash...Abreu: 19 steals/ 4 caught He's better at it than Pods. Scott certainly hasn't been especially great on the basepaths this year, you are correct. It isn't exactlly fair to say he isn't "good" at it though. His 201 sb's are the most of any player over the past 3 seasons, and he has a career successful sb percentage of about 78%, which is actually fairly good. The question or concern should be whether or not he has lost a step due to age/injury or whether he is just not executing well. There is evidence that can point to both. Abreu's career % is 76 %, so I am not necessarily inclined to believe he is a better base stealer. Regardless, this is not a thread about whether Pods stacks up well against Abreu, because he can't. He never has and never will. But with an offense already leading the league in runs scored, it makes zero sense to me to add Bobby ABreu and his $13 million salary for what he brings over Scott and his $2 million salary.

QUOTE(CWSOX45 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 11:13 AM) In no way should it be tolerated, but you know that someone out there in need of pitching is going to realize they can get this guy for cheap. In all honesty I don't know how I would feel if the Sox did happen to acquire him, from a baseball standpoint I'd be happy with the move, however by a moral standpoint I'd be sickened. I honestly had no idea about the magnitude of the situation involving Myers and his wife. I'm aware, but didn't Bobby also use to burn himself? I thought there was also a history of physical violence too. Maybe not. Who knows in terms of Bobby. He supposedly admitted to doing it back in 03', but then does not admit to it now. He definetely had his issues. But I think Bobby gets a pass because of the conditions in which he was raised. I am not familiar with Myers' upbringing, but there is no excuse for what he did. And despite how strange self-mutilation is, it isn't beating your wife.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:57 AM) Here's the question we're all answering without actually saying so: We've been willing to take chances on guys with rumored behavior issues before. Is there a line we're not willing to cross in terms of bad behavior? I would say so. I had no idea the situation was how it was until DA posted that article. I thought he just slapped his wife or something. By no means is that acceptable either, but this article makes his sound like an absolute monster. We don't need freaks like that on this team. It is one thing to be a little out there. It's another thing to beat your wife. In the past, we have taken chances on talented "problem" players because our mid-market payroll forced us to do so to be competitive. No longer do we really have that excuse.