iamshack

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:54 AM) I haven't read this thread. Is there an actual rumor somewhere in here, or is it just some random trade idea that someone here came up with? It's just a random trade idea that turned into a trash Podsednik thread again at the end.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:50 AM) Brett Myers was arrested in Boston last night for allegedly striking his wife. The couple were walking back to their hotel from a bar when a dispute broke out just blocks from Fenway Park. The incident occurred just after midnight and appears pretty gruesome. Here are the details from the Boston Globe: Myers' wife, told police she believed her husband hit her twice in the face with a closed fist. Witnesses told police Myers dragged his wife by the hair and slapped her across the face. Procopio said it is unclear if Myers punched his wife or slapped her, but he did strike her in the face. Courtney Knight, 26, who witnessed the alleged attack, said in an interview today that Myers was out of control. "It was disgusting," Knight said. "He was dragging her by the hair and slapping her across the face. She was yelling, 'I'm not going to let you do this to me anymore.' " Knight said the 6-foot-4 ballplayer dwarfs his wife, who she estimated to be 5 foot 2 and 100 pounds. "She's a real small girl," Knight said. "It was awful." Myers allegedly told Knight and her friends to leave and resisted when they tried to pull him off of his wife, prompting Knight to call police. She said Myers was undeterred by the presence of her group of friends. "He had her on the ground. He was trying to get her to go, and she was resisting," Knight said. "She curled up and sat on the ground. He was pulling her, her shirt up was around her neck....He could have cared less that we were there." Knight said the player appeared to be fighting with his wife because he wanted to return to their hotel and she did not. This is not a guy any team should want on his roster. I don't care if he throws the ball 150 MPH. Wow, I didn't realize it was this horrible. Some people are just a little too crazy. I suppose it would be in our best interests to take a pass on him. The especially disturbing part is where she says "I'm not going to let you do this to me anymore."

QUOTE(Felix @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:45 AM) There's a bit of a difference between having trouble with substances and punching your wife in the face. A huge difference. I agree that what he did was absolutely unacceptable. However, the man will continue to pitch and will continue to make his living in this game. People will forget about this, and some team will take a chance on his relatively impressive ability to throw a baseball. I don't understand why the White Sox have to be on a moral crusade. Their job is to win baseball games.

QUOTE(bighurt574 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:27 AM) Should the Sox care about the altercation any less than the Phillies? Yes, they should. This is a baseball team, not a church group. I like the idea of going after alot of talented undervalued guys because of perceived character flaws or whatever. As long as Myers is a good teammate, if his incident with his wife has devalued him in Philly to where we could get him at a bargain price, then it should be explored. I think Jerry Reinsdorf especially is open to the idea of giving some guys with character flaws another chance and a change of scenery if they can help the club win. Look at Rodman, Everett, Jenks, Pierzynski, etc. The organization has no issue with giving a guy another chance if he can be a good teammate and can perform on the field. What were you thinking we would send back in exchange for Gordon and Meyers?

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:59 AM) If you compare Pods to other Leftfielders he is not that good, but not many of them leadoff either. If you put his stats up against the other leadoff hitters, he is somewhere in the middle. So that would mean half of the leadoff hitters in the league suck if Pods sucks. Scott is only one of 4 players in baseball with more than 25 steals and an OBP of .350 or higher. The other three are Ichiro, Jose Reyes, and Carl Crawford. That is pretty good company if you ask me. Of course though, and I know this is a major point of contention for Saber types, his OPS is much lower than all three of those, coming in at .758 where as Ichiro is at .842, Reyes is at .841, and Crawford is at a very good .875. This is where the argument comes that Scott is a substandard leadoff man and ballplayer. I understand what the difference is and I admit that Scott is an average leadoff man. But I also understand that he is making $2 million dollars this season, probably what he deserves (if you really want to b**** about substandard leadoff men and players which are overpaid, look at the guy on the northside). There are a lot of other players who are robbing the team blind and hurting our chances worse than Scottie, and I just wish their failures would be addressed as accordingly, by the same group of critics.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 03:27 AM) Anderson is not gonna hit .315 for the next two and a half months. Willing to bet he never does hits for that high of average in that long of time span for his entire career... he is just not that type of hitter. Nothing close to it. What do you mean he is not "that type of hitter"? What type of hitter is he? Perhaps I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that the White Sox projected Brian to be a .300 kind of hitter eventually, with decent power and speed.

QUOTE(daa84 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 08:53 AM) this is exactly why i would be hesitate to deal for any of them...they both walk way too many hitters....i know its the NL where IBB are more frequent, but they are late inning guys who wouldnt IBB to get to a pitcher with a pinch hitter likely coming up....the walks would scare me off of sanchez a bit Is everyone certain that Heilman really is as versatile as might have been previously thought? I've heard more than a few times that he doesn't have the command of enough pitches to go through a lineup more than once effectively, and therefore, he will always be a reliever. Is there evidence to the contrary? It appears the Mets don't see him as a starter, as they stubbornly refuse to throw him in the rotation...

QUOTE(SABR Sox @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 06:11 AM) You are not arguing for both schools of thought. You are arguing that what you see on T.V. is what you see, and what you see in numbers is falwed, when its clearly the opposite. I'm not going to call you stubborn, ignorant, etc, but it is pathetic that you don't take numbers into account. How old are you, ten? Did you fail algebra and avoid numbers or something? Are you even an adult? Or do you just follow baseball like a kid? Most people around here, and well everywhere, that are adults put some consideration into stats, like OPS, you should take a note. And don't tell me you put consideration into those stats, becuase thats what we've been arguiung this whole time. I haven't brought up a "Saber" stat once. And I'm not talking HR, BA, SB's, conditional ones, but clearly the important runs, the ones that relate to scoring, like OPS and ones that prevent it, you ignore. Don't slam me for arguing that Podsednik sucks. Numbers prove he does depending on how you look at things, and you need to realize that. Just don't call me ignorant and don't say I need to put the shoe on the other foot, becuase I played baseball, and I looked at baseball in a style like you did, and its not good. Not saying you need to embrance Sabermetrics or stats even to the extent I do, but you need to look at them, becuase even though you "claim" you do, you've certianly done a good job making it clear that they're not important, at least not as imortant as watching games in drawing conclusions, which is what 8 year olds do. I'm not against the basics completely, but I'm certianly not for them completley either. As a die hard saber fan I actually realize the basics are flawed in many ways. And I could give you some good reading, some good articles on how, but you probably wouldn't read them or even understand them, becuase you wouldn't make an effort to. What are you talking about? Perhaps if you would just stop insulting me for one second, go back and look at my posts, you would see that I never argued that what "I see on tv" is all that matters. You are being so incredibly stubborn because you don't agree with me that you haven't even actually absorbed anything I have said. Do you normally debate people by completely and utterly misstating their position and misunderstanding their arguments? What you are arguing against I would be willing to argue against as well. Please, take some time to go back and comprehend what has actually occurred in these threads. For all the time you have spent responding, one would think you would at least want to understand what you are responding to.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 11:25 PM) Sanchez stuff >>> Heilmans Sanchez Upside >>> Heilmans Sanchez has the ability to be a dominant reliever, Heilman has the ability to be a solid to mediocre starter or reliever. Anyone maybe think we could get them to take Garcia and possibly Montero for Duaner and Humber back? KW supposedly wants a young starter or starter prospect coming back as well. I guess it depends on how much kenny wants to keep Javy. Because I think that Minyana would do the deal with Vazquez- he has liked him as much as Kenny. The question is whther Kenny is willing to move him.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 11:20 PM) Wait -- this coming from the person who keeps going back to his 'calculator' snubs that he believes are true? Quit kidding yourself, pal... I'll give my final post on this topic, since you seem to have the wrong opinion about me. I'm not a 100% stats guy. I do tend to favor stats, yes, but I don't think they are the be all, end all. There are certain things that stats can't tell you. I'm not going to go into detail, but things like Matt Thorton -- a guy sucks for five years in the bigs, and, with one tweak of his motion, is a solid pitcher out of the 'pen -- can't be explained by stats. And yet your eyes and personal experiences can tell you exactly why it is that he is solid. He throws 97 with ease, left-handed. And the personal experiences of Cooper made him make a few slight adjustments which helped his control. And Voila! I am not an anti-stats guy. Where my problem lies is which stats are preferred over others and which are not, and I guess the degree to which they are trusted and utilized. It isn't as though I watch a game and ignore stats. I play fantasy baseball in a 10 X 10 head2head keeper league, so I understand how players are evaluated and such. I read a lot of info on Indians' and A's boards, so I understand the culture. I am not advocating an anti-stats let's all stick our heads in the sand position here. I just believe that much of this is in it's infancy. And there is no reason completely switch philosophies this early in the game. I think you evaluate more slowly how accurate things are, and transition into an overall philosophy which is strong on player evaluation through more accurate stats and mix that in with the traditional notions which have stood up to scrutiny and continued to remain true. I believe that is how the WS are approaching this, and so I am happy with that.

QUOTE(SABR Sox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 11:07 PM) Th game is more complicated than watching it. THATS ALL YOU BASE THE GAME OFF OF. It's quite pathetic actually. Sabermetrics isn't just calculators and numbers. I watch games, as much as I can. I love going to games. Hell, I even like to watch Pods steal. But when you don't take stats into account, your making a mistake. Stats are definite, whether your stubborn and arrogant like yourself or whether you actually believe so like me. You refuse to admit that stats do not lie. I'm done arguing with you. I could give you a metric on how the White Sox should have won a WS and you probably wouldn't beleve it. Here's an idea: Don't argue with me. I don't like wasting time. I'm sick of your BS "Stats don't mean s***" Becuase they do, and most members around here would agree. Where have you gotten the impression that I don't believe that statistics or numbers mean anything? I have not said that once, and I don't advocate that position currently. What I am arguing is a combination of both schools of thought. Using the most accurate statistics available as well as what common sense and keen observation make clear to produce the best possible strategy for playing the game. If you have read any of my posts on other threads you will see that I often make statistcally-based arguments when referring to how to evaluate a player, so I am not sure why you think I am this old curmudgeon who refuses to see the light of day. The one thing you are correct about me though, it that yes, I WILL NEVER ADMIT THAT STATS DON'T LIE. Because the sure as hell do. Stats are the best way that people can translate experience into numbers. If you think that every statistic that is currently used is the best way to do that, you are flat out insane. Numbers lie all the damned time. In terms of arguing with you, you are under absolutely no obligation to respond back to me, especially if I am just ignorant, arrogant, and stubborn as you claim me to be. Ignore me and my posts all you wish to, becuase no one is holding a gun to your head asking you to respond. Besides, I am not even arguing with you personally, I am arguing with your way of thinking. We have gone back and forth a few times now though, and it seems as though you make several incorrect assumptions about me and make this a lot more difficult than it has to be. I am not against the basics of much of what you believe. However, I think much of sabermetrics is in its infancy still, and has a long way to go. Whereas many firm believers believe that the best models and stats have been designed already and are ready to be applied now.

QUOTE(SABR Sox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 10:56 PM) Have you ever seen an expected runs chart? Probably not. Your statement is false. Productive outs are not productive, they hurt run scoring. Are you blind? Are you even reading my posts or just responding to them angrily without thinking? You can expect all the runs you want over the course of a season. I have absolutely no qualm with that sort of theory. I understand that it has been proven mathematically that playing the game in a certain manner is likely to produce the optimum number of runs. I understand! I play blackjack using basic strategy! I am not opposed to the power of mathematics and computers! What I am saying is that the game is much, much more complicated than just putting the best OPS guys possible out there and letting them do their thing. Yet you are just blatantly refusing to admit that. QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 11:02 PM) Explain what with their calculator? What the f*** are you talking about? You're not even making sense anymore... What is nonsensical about that post? And what are you trying to contribute to this discussion again? You may not understand what I am saying, but at least I am trying to say something. You are just trying to insult me.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 10:55 PM) Oh, haha, the typical jab about sabermetricians using spreadsheets or calculators or computers. Funny. Have you met Bill Plaschke? You two would get along great! It isn't a jab as much as it is a truism. Do you not see all the complexities and intricacies of a major league baseball game? Yet some people want to explain EVERYTHING that occurs on a major league baseball stadium with their calculator- dismissing all other elements. That's just amazingly silly to me.

QUOTE(SABR Sox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 10:33 PM) Lol. About 95% of the time, your second statemnt is one of the dumbest any baseball fan can say. You are wrong. End of story. See, this is exactly what I am referring to. Your counter-argument is the usual arrogant bs attitude that so many people that happen to be believers in sabermetrics seem to have. Simply because I don't agree with your research and theory, I am dumb and wrong, and the topic is no longer open for discussion. If what you say is true, how are teams that are not "stats based" being so successful in the postseason, ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL? And you will give me the argument that all saber people give when something occurs which cannot be explained with their calculators- "small sample size." Newsflash, Sabr. Elite pitching shuts down all hitting. Runs are tough to come by. Outs must be productive and runs must be manufactured. Teams that play station-to-station all season long are not accustomed to manufacturing runs and thus are shut down. And then they lose. Or it can be put a more simple way, as your hero BB said it: "My s*** doesn't work in the playoffs." Oh- and I can live without your condescending, patronizing attitude in the future.

QUOTE(SABR Sox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 09:49 PM) Not true. The qualities chosen are completely linear to run scoring and run prevention. Linear in terms of run production over the course of a 162 game season, perhaps, yes. But the most efficient offense is not necessarily the one that scores the most runs over the course of a full season.

QUOTE(SABR Sox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 09:10 PM) Haha, nobody said thier flawless. Nothing in baseball, whether it be metrics or not, is perfect. NEVER has baseball itself been perfect or flawless. But stats and Sabermetrics for that matter are certianly more Objective than Subjective over most player evaluation. Not really. Sabermetrics can be incredibly subjective in that they choose which player qualities are important and which are not. Unfortunately, everything that they cannot accurately quantify seems to be deemed as less important than that which they can. It took the White Sox winning the World Series last season for them to realize how important elite defense can actually be, despite the fact that they cannot accurately measure what elite defense is.

QUOTE(SABR Sox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 08:56 PM) KW has really made some good moves. I can't blame him for bringing Pods in at all, becuase hey, it did free up salary for I believe the acqusition of the Gooch, JD or El Duque (I can't remember which one) so it wasn't all that bad, especially since Carlos Lee isn't exactly a monster either. And its not like KW can just trade for a producitve LF just like that. Even the statistically based teams, like the Yanks, BoSox, and A's have weak positions too. Epstien knows Alex Gonzalez isn't a great SS, Cashman knows Bernie Williams and Melky Cabrera aren't anything special, Beane knows his entire offense is struggling. And many of them do Aknowledge it in newspapers and such, and just deal with it. It's when those weak players are called strong I get argumentative. Its when these new methods of player evaluation are presumed to be flawless or even fundamentally correct in the first place when I get argumentative.

QUOTE(SABR Sox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 08:49 PM) He started off the season with I believe 20+ scoreless innings. He has it, but I'd prefer Gordon, and maybe even Heilman. From what I have read, the Mets refuse to deal him.

QUOTE(SABR Sox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 08:26 PM) Becuase you continue to bash me for well bashing him. I actually have some statistically based info behind it. He is a below average fielder, a below average hitter, and absolute s*** production from a corner Of'er. I actually have evidence, metrics that you feel is invalid. No one said he was ever Rickey Henderson, you are correct. But people like you say he's good, andpeople like me believe he isn't. Deal with it, you don't like it, don't respond. And when you do respond, give me some evidence as to why he's even *good.* Becuase he has speed? Becuase his OBP is .350? Becuase SLG% isn't important from a #1 batter? In my mind, you need **MORE PRODUCTION** from a guy who's going to see the most PA's in a lineup, pure and simple. And I constantly trash the guy becuase in my mind, he is trash. I can trash trash can't I. Many people seem to do so a lot. Do us all a favor. Don't respond to my post and I won't respond to yours. Were opposites. Your the guy who listens to high school baseball caoches and thinks Pods speed makes pitchers s*** thier pants, and becuase of it, he's a good leadoff hitter. I'm the type of guy who sees a piece of crap, who can't field, can't hit, and should by no means be seeing the most PA's in our lineup. Argument settled. You are more than welcome to have your opinion, and believe whatever you want to believe. What I take issue with is your insistance that everyone must adopt your opinion about him as a player when what evidence you bring to suggest he is a bad player is incomplete at best. If you want to be disappointed in players on the current team, there are plenty of other targets who are more deserving, yet you bash our left-fielder at every possible juncture. As for your comments on only myself and some high school coaches believing Scott has value because of what he does on the basepaths, I guess you include KW as an idiot as well because he obviously felt he was a valuable player. But then again, Kenny doesn't know what VORP is, so you probably find him to be completely ignorant and incomptetent as well.

QUOTE(SABR Sox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 07:40 PM) Why is it that you must support such a crappy ballplayer. Now not everyone will agree with me that "crappy" is the correct term but why do you support him so much? Do you think his speed makes pitchers poop thier pants? Do you think his slap and run style is better than just hitting the XBH's? Why do you love him so much? Why is he so great? Please I'm dying to hear this. Why do Saber guys get so offended when someone doesn't buy their nuevo-statistic bs? Why do you give a f*** who I choose to support? Why must half the posters on this forum get off by torching Scott Podsednik? The guy makes $2 million dollars. He tries to get on base just like everyother guy on our team does. He tries to catch the ball just like every other guy does. No one ever said he was Ricky Henderson. No one ever said he was Vince Coleman even. But he is our leadoff hitter, and he does a few things pretty well for a leadoff hitter. I'm not going to get into this argument about what makes an effective leadoff hitter or not, but our offense pretty much clicks (with the exception of today) when he is getting on, and he has been doing his part as of late. He also has been driving in runs pretty well as of late. I just don't understand why some feel the need to constantly trash the guy. Is it because his wife is hot or what?

QUOTE(Contreras @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 07:32 PM) Not just the saber-community... Abreu: .443 OBP Pods: .353 OBP We'll keep it simple. Getting on base 44% of the time > getting on base 35% of the time It's not like Abreu is slow or anything. He steals bases, too. He gets caught less than Pods. He's better defensively, and he's certainly slugging a lot better. He's getting on base more than anyone not named Hafner or Mauer. It's hard to defend Podsednik with OBP against the guy who's 3rd best in all of baseball at reaching. That being said, we lead the league in runs scored. We don't need Abreu, but I sure as hell wouldn't turn him away if someone shopped him to us at the right price. I'd take Abreu and I'd have Pods shipped off to Florida or wherever the same day. I never for a second was arguing that Posednik is anywhere near the hitter Abreu is. I was pointing to the fact that at every possible opportunity, someone has to rip the guy. Guess what, folks? It was fashionable to explain why Scottie is worthless last year. This year, it's cliche. But don't fret, I've heard Freddy Garcia is the new Pods.

QUOTE(SABR Sox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 06:14 PM) They don't need Abreu, but damn could they use him, especially if we can somehow rid Pods. But I do agree with the Vazquez statement. I see better things coming. Here we go again with the Pods bashing. I know it makes you Saber guys excited to point out what a worthless player he is, but if you haven't noticed, he is doing a pretty decent job of getting on base lately. I suppose it would be the ultimate coup d etat for the WS Saber community to replace worthless Pods with the god-like Abreu.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 06:54 PM) (3) I'm really not buying the "power pitchers get more money" argument with regard to Burnett. Any GM worth a damn is going to pay significantly more for a consistently-good, workhorse, injury-free finesse pitcher who is a good teammate and contributed heavily to a WS title than someone like Burnett who has only thrown 200 innings twice in six years as a starter, has been hampered by injuries (including reconstructive elbow surgery), has put up good-but-not-great numbers, has never won anything, and was kicked off of his team for bad-mouthing his teammates and coaches. I agree that many gm's will learn from what has happened in regards to Burnett, Vazquez, and some other "stuff" pitchers who have not fulfilled their potential. We have already seen the gears shift as more durable pitchers begin to see their payday. Guys like Paul Byrd, Jason Johnson, and even to some degree Esteban Loaiza- known as "innings eaters" got money they might not have dreamt of getting 3-4 years ago. This offseason and the next, guys like Zito, Buehrle, and to a lesser extent now Mulder will test the market and we will all see if they get contracts equivalent to that of what Burnett and Vazquez received.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 16, 2006 -> 03:29 PM) Comparing Beltran and Paulie to a consistently-good left-handed starting pitcher is apples and oranges. If you think that Buehrle is going to settle for the same contract as A.J. Burnett (a pitcher that he's trumped in just about every aspect), you're out of your freaking mind. I'd be absolutely shocked if Mark settled for anything less than 5 years/$65 million. That's what it'll probably take to sign Zito and is probably where Buehrle's negotiations will start. Burnett's contract was driven up because of his k numbers and his stuff. Similarly to Javy's contract, AJ isn't worth that much but he got it based on what he has the "potential" to do, but not what he does consistently. Mark will get a lot of money, but the fact that he doesn't miss bats and doesn't have that jaw-dropping stuff will probably keep him from getting what his record might suggest he would otherwise get.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jul 14, 2006 -> 05:47 PM) You trade Garcia or Vaz and maybe a AAAA(Phillips,Farnsworth) for Flash and Gavin Floyd. You send down McCarthy, have him stretch out his arm in AAA, let Floyd start two or three games, then bring Mac back up, put him in the rotation, and put Floyd were Mac is now. Do we really need bullpen help, at this stage in the game, before we even know what Hermanson might bring, soooo badly that we are willing to give up a starter right now? It seems rash to me. If he spins Garcia for prospects and a reliever, and then deals the prospects along with Fields and Broadway or something for Crawford, that is one thing. But doing it just for the sake of adding one reliever now? I don't get it...