iamshack

QUOTE(heirdog @ Dec 7, 2007 -> 12:41 PM) Thank you Peter Angelos. You do know why he is untouchable, right?

QUOTE(heirdog @ Dec 7, 2007 -> 12:29 PM) I laid out a large price because that's what the O's would want. I agree that its a lot but a core of Fields, Danks, Sweeney and Anderson ain't gonna do it. You will need to add in a Gio or DLS. With Markakis added in with Bedard, you really are gaining another young impact player and don't have to wait on Sweeney and Anderson to finally develop. Bedard is a stud lefty who after 08 could be spun out for stud prospects if our go for it all plan in 08 doesn't work. Markakis is absolutely untouchable. He is not available, period, end of discussion.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 02:20 PM) There were more than a few people that have questioned his moves at the time he's made them the past couple of years. Most "experts" predicted the White Sox to win the Central in 2006, but after that, not many predicted much out of them in 2007. It could just be posturing but he can't possibly think just adding Linebrink will fix the bullpen. Who is going to eat Garland's 200 innings? Floyd? Danks runs out of gas after about 100 innings and he should be good for 175 in 2008? Maybe some GMs aren't happy with the outcomes of their teams, and maybe there are several teams with a $108 million payroll that lost 90 games but still drew a top 5 or 6 attendance figure in team history, but they aren't popping off in the press about a team that finished 16 games in front of them acquiring a player they were willing to gut what was left of their farm system to acquire that it was good, that it meant they would be better able to compete against a team that in the past year and a half has been nothing short of awful. They aren't popping off they can't spend $1 when they only have $.50. Guess what, the reason he only has the $.50 is his fault. As I said, I'm not giving up on 2008 yet. He can still put together a decent team. His ego, not wanting to admit he was wrong on players or combinations of players, probably will stand in his way. He needs to make either wholesale changes or expensive roster additions or both. Why do I have the feeling that Rowand will get a bloated contract and at the press conference KW will state he was the first option all along. Yet on the other hand, Detroit, who you specifically mention, made the EXACT same mistake in 07' that Kenny made in 06', and now have gambled basically their entire farm system on bringing a title to Motown within the next two seasons. Are they a better team on paper right now, absolutely. Do they have any pitching? Uhhh... I don't see anything wrong with what Kenny said regarding the Tigers competing with the White Sox. How people can continually ignore the fact that teams come out of nowhere each and every year and compete with, or exceed the performance of other teams that on paper look far more dangerous is beyond me. If you want to award the division to Detroit or Cleveland right now, go right ahead. Just as people awarded it to us prior to 06', and most to the Tigers last season. I'm not going to argue that Cabrera wasn't a wonderful acquisition for the Marlins. He's an incredible player and it's hard to go wrong when trading for someone so advanced in skill at his young age. Yet the Tigers have problems of their own- they've got a core that is filled with aging veterans that WILL experience injury and WILL see their production decline over the next two years. Yet they look at themselves now and they have very little pitching and a farm system devoid of a whole ton of talent. Can they win it all this year? Perhaps. Had we taken the same gamble would KW be getting railed here for something so reckless and short-sighted, absolutely. But I guess the grass is always greener....right now, Mark Shapiro/Dave Dombrowski/Billy Smith/Dayton Moore are all geniuses, while the Stanford guy is dumb as rocks.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 12:45 PM) When the team needed help in 2006, KW consulted with Konerko and Thome and they said the team was fine, so he did nothing and the team faultered. Oh wait, they did pick up Sandy Alomar Jr. at the bingo hall . Coming into 2007 he said the team couldn't play any worse than it did in 2006 and still won 90 games, then went on to say that people would know in spring training what they were trying to do by bringing in Floyd and Danks because it would make them better right then. He "fixed" the bullpen by getting guys who could throw gas, but couldn't throw strikes. He said people didn't realize that David Aardsma "turned a corner" in his last couple of months pitching in meaningless games for the Cubs. The bullpen turned out to be worse than ever in 2007. The organization that stated they didn't care what others thought, they had their own way of thinking said Jim Leyland thought the Sox bullpen would be the strongest in the divison. So who could see that coming, even though Jenks was the only member of the bullpen who ever has had sustained success in the major leagues. The team who had an offense that struggled the second half of 2006 even with Dye and Thome slugging 40 homers, putting up numbers you really couldn't reasonably expect them to match in 2007, re-signed Pods, a guy who probably gets hurt getting out of bed every morning, and relies on Darin Erstad, a guy who also is usually quite injured. They both get hurt. Thome's back tightens up occassionally, Dye comes back down to approximately his 2005 level, and once again, the offense struggles, not for a half, but for an entire season. Once again, its called the "perfect storm". No one could have seen that coming. I'm wondering if the ball doesn't go through Tony G's legs in October 2005, and if El Duque gets lit up instead of shutting down the Red Sox the next game, and the White Sox wind up losing that series, what would Kenny Williams have to hang his hat on during his tenure? I doubt even his biggest apologists would call it a success. The Sox did win and you have to give him credit, but if he truely thinks what he is quoted as saying this morning is true, the only person he is fooling is himself. The team can still be good in 2008, but its going to need a few new players. Formulating a laundry list of only the negative things that Kenny has done (including some that are still pending- give some of these kids a chance still) does nothing to change my opinion on things. I certainly am not happy with the outcome of things, but there are a lot of solid GM's not happy with the outcomes of their teams right now. In my viewpoint, the things Kenny has done since the World Series title, AT THE TIME THE DECISIONS WERE MADE, have been for the most part, very solid decisions. Reviewing them now is not a fair method of critiquing him.

QUOTE(The Beast @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 12:37 PM) Whoa, I still didn't have my question answered. Where does it say that we were interested in Fukudome, what was the dollar amount and number of years, and who was pursuing him? What do any of these questions have to do with whether or not we actually will sign him?

QUOTE(The Beast @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 12:31 PM) I also do not understand these Konerko to the Angels fantasies. We have him signed, and he has a limited NTC. Do any of you know all of these 6 clubs with confirmation of where this information has come from? Well, considering he nearly signed with them, I doubt they are on his list.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 12:30 PM) Orbital fractures incurred while chasing fly balls: Rowand: 2 Hunter: 0 What other statistics do you need? Broken ankles while doing same: Rowand: 0 Hunter: 1

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 11:57 AM) But, the problem is, there's a real catch-22 built in there. Right now, KW's best option out of the mess that has come out of our farm system, specifically the McCullough/Broadway picks and the self-implosion of Anderson and Sweeney, is patience, on every level. If a system were put in place immediately to fix this, it would do a number of things. One, spend more on the draft obviously (we'll see). Two, spend more overseas (we've seen hints of this). Three, overhaul the scouting system (we've certainly seen this, the question will be the results). Four, and this one to me is the most important; efforts at the top level to find bargains and turn them into something useful. 2 years ago, we were actually able to win a World Series in no small part because we wound up so good at the 4th of those on my list. We found a metric ton of bargains and it just happened to work. Now, we're making efforts to find some more of those guys. We snuck Owens into the lineup. We picked up Richar, who was blocked by Orlando Hudson. We grabbed Quentin who was down on his luck due to an injury. We grabbed Floyd and Gio off of down years when their value was at a minimum. We tried to make a few trades, but found that we just weren't getting the value we wanted back in no small part because of poor performance, so we resigned people. With the top levels of the system the way they are, the best, fastest way out involves a ton of patience. There are an awful lot of high risk guys for the Sox in the upper levels right now. Contreras, Owens, Richar, Floyd, Danks, Gio, Crede, Fields, Quentin, Anderson, Sweeney, and if you toss in the other veterans you can include guys like Dye and Thome. If somehow, every one of them performed like they could, we'd have another world series team on our hands. But the odds are strongly against that. At least several of these guys are likely to continue their implosions. The way to fix this though is to realize that some of them won't. Some of these guys will come out and have good seasons. And those guys will suddenly have a ton more value on the trade market. If we don't come out smoking hot at the beginning of the year, the odds are that some of our guys will still perform. It might be Contreras, Owens, Floyd, whatever. The ideal way to build this thing back up quickly is to get a few guys that you pick up at reduced prices and either develop them into guys you can hold onto at reasonable prices for 10 years (Quentin) or spin them off if their value goes back up (Dye, Contreras). It's not going to be a fast process, because a lot of these guys are likely to fail just by random chance. But if a few of them get hot, you can salvage this thing pretty quick with a couple intelligent moves. The big problem though is...how many people here would tolerate KW being around for a full rebuilding? People were calling for his job last year. If it takes 2-3 years of losing to totally restock this thing and come in absolutely loaded, who is going to tolerate that? KW is in a position where the best thing for himself is not necessarily the best thing for the franchise. It is in this that hopefully JR's loyalty helps, in that it might give him the time to actually rebuild. But he's sort of set up to fail now, because if he doesn't rebuild this thing fast, then he loses his job, but if he tries to rebuild this thing fast, one single slip-up like giving the wrong deal to a FA who blows up costs him his job. And I agree with a lot of this. It makes things incredibly difficult though when you have writers who have absolutely no concept of what the organization is trying to do, what it's financial situation dictates, etc. Instead, many of them clamor for the White Sox to run their business how the Cubs suddenly have begun to, spending money on any and every free agent acquisition or high-priced veteran as possible. The White Sox simply cannot compete with the Cubs on a level playing field with $. They have to be more responsible and cautious. And yet, the people disseminating the information to our fanbase have no concept of that simple fact. Honestly, I think alot of this stems from Kenny being forced to adjust to changes in the current landscape, yet simultaneously appease the uninformed fanbase. He's tried to ask them simply to trust him, but that comes off as arrogant or smug. But it's not. It's what you have to do when your audience is incapable or unwilling to understand what you are trying to do.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 11:04 AM) White Sox fans do not play well to their highly paid GM to be frustrated. They don't want to hear it. While some of the name calling and keyboard lynching of Williams on this site today is more than a bit much, it is what it is. We are the fans and he is the GM, he is held to a higher standard than fans are. The bottom line is he will have to get stuff done. So far he hasn't. I don't hold the brave front against him, he is simply not going to come out to the media and say "woe is us, we are bad, we will continue to be bad". For people expecting that, get a clue. It doesn't work that way. But Williams will have to get more done than he has thus far. Trying is great, but trying doesn't get the job done. If other GM's are jerking him around as he intimates, go elsewhere, there are 29 other teams and it's his job to seal the deal. While I agree that he shouldn't have gone off on the media, much as he shouldn't have said infamously in the past "stay out of White Sox business," he's dealing with a fanbase, which, for the most part, is not a well-informed one. Anyone who listens to sports talk-radio, or reads the columns in Chicago newspapers can attest to the fact that our fanbase is primarily fed information which was far more in-vogue 15 years ago. It appears the newer philosophies and current intelligent ways of thinking in the industry have yet to reach the Chicago media- and therefore- the majority of the fans have yet to become learned in that fashion. Thus, Kenny is trying to appease the masses with a plan which, for the most part, simply doesn't understand the current baseball climate or the complexities of the current marketplace. I understand his frustration on that level. Needless to say, the best course of action would be to keep his mouth shut more often and go about his business without worrying about what the media thinks or the fans think. Ultimately, this fanbase responds well to results. How he goes about achieving those results, no one really cares.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 11:04 AM) He's frustrated he has to manage to a certain budget number and he can't blow guys away with offers (Hunter, LAA). He's frustrated with other organizations doling out what he believes to be insane contracts. Well I agree with him. We'll start to see the fallout from some of these deals within the next year or so. Many of the players signed last offseason to ridiculous deals are already regrets by their teams. See: Matthews, Gary, Jr.; Pierre, Juan; Schmidt, Jason; Garciaparra, Nomar; Zito, Barry. Teams that have stayed out of the free agent market the past two offseasons, for the most part, are the better for it.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 10:58 AM) Look at the team's individual final numbers even in 2007. Who would you expect to be drastically better in 2008? The guy counted on Podsednik and Erstad in 2007. I don't know how much more you need to know. The pitching staff wasn't so great in 2007. He's added Linebrink and subtracted Garland, and now says the pitching, ranked 12th out of 14th last year, will not be a problem. Why, because he said so? I expect Pauly's numbers to be better. I expect JD's numbers to be better. I expect OCab's numbers to be better than Uribe's. I expect Richar's numbers to be better. I expect Josh Fields' numbers to be better. I expect whatever combination of LF and CF we have out there to be better than what we got from those positions last year. In terms of pitching, I don't think it's possible that our bullpen could be worse. Outside of Bobby, I would expect nearly everyone to improve. Maybe Boone and Wasserman will have similar years. I expect the addition of Linebrink to help. Mac is a wild card. I expect Thornton to improve. As for the starters, I would expect Buehrle and Vazquez's numbers to slide a bit, but I think Jose will be better, Danks will be better (if he gets the gig), and Floyd to show improvement (same as Danks). I just believe alot of things in baseball are cummulative. For instance, a few guys struggling last season made it more difficult for others to produce. When some guys don't get their job done, it puts stress on other guys to make up for that deficiency, which in turn causes them to struggle a bit. This applies to the other end of the spectrum as well- if some guys are clicking, that takes the pressure off of other guys and they'll start relaxing and getting the job done as well. Basically, I just don't believe that we were as bad as we have been the last year and a half. We weren't as good as we were the year before that. But you can't look at these things completely objectively because there are simply too many factors and variables which are unquantifiable. It's alright, I know I am in the minority here and I'll get slammed for it, but so be it. If it was as easy to evaluate a baseball team and how it will perform as many on here make it seem, baseball would be a far more predictable game.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 10:53 AM) Did you watch one game after the ASB in 2006? It was rather easy to see that the offensive players were beginning to see their bat speed decrease. Yeah, I've watched nearly every game since the ASB in 06'. So you're telling me that after the ASB in 06', our entire offense began experiencing decreasing bat speed all at once? These 31, 32 year old guys all began to lose it at the exact same time? Sorry, I'm not buying that. That's absolute nonsense.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 6, 2007 -> 10:24 AM) While I have no doubt he doesn't care what you or I think, he does care what some think based on his quotes today. As far as winning a WS, that was great, but it doesn't give him a pass the rest of his life. The guy had a $108 million payroll and was a lot closer to having the worst record in baseball than the best. This team has been in freefall since the ASB 2006. Its time he noticed. KW has shown "confidence" in his roster since the 2006 trade deadline. It hasn't meant much. I honestly respect your input, but you continue to have a bit of Mariotti in your comments. I don't want to start this whole crapstorm again, but honestly, at some point players have to get the job done. Ours went from getting it done in stellar fashion (the first half of 06', and everything looked as if it were going exactly to plan), to absolute garbage in the blink of an eye (from about the Boston series right before the 06' ASB until the end of the season). Because of the WS in 05', Kenny had to give the team a bit of a chance to redeem themselves and pay credence to the theory that the run in 05' had negatively affected the team down the stretch in 06'. Therefore, he kept the same core of players around, made some tweaks to the pitching staff and bullpen, but all in all, gave the guys another run at it in 07'. What happened this season was absolutely mystifying on all accounts. Certainly the bullpen failed us, but even had it not, the offense was near the last in the AL. No one could have predicted that after the breakout year the offense had in 06'. And I don't think anyone can predict with ANY certainty what the offense will do next year. The volatile swings in production from 05' to 06' to 07' are anyone's guess. And there will be those that say it is age, but I wouldn't be shocked to see the offense produce far more runs this season after growing a year older. Jim Thome was our best offensive player this season, and he is also the oldest non-pitcher on the team. So I don't buy the age card for Pauly and JD. Anyways, I digress. The point is, Kenny, in my opinion, wasn't in a position to make drastic changes until now. And that, he's tried to do. He acquired a better ss, which everyone was calling for. He acquired a bullpen arm, which everyone was calling for. He tried to acquire one of the best CF options on the market, which everyone has been calling for. He tried to acquire the best young hitter on the market, which many were clamoring for. Unfortunately, he has swung and missed a few times, and will have to make an adjustment to his plans, but I don't understand how one could argue that he hasn't noticed that this team has been in a "freefall" since the ASB of 06'. He clearly understands that. It's simply that he has to work in reality, with what is actually out there. Not like us in our speculative fantasy world.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 10:09 PM) That did us a lot of good last year. I agree with what he's saying also, I just don't think that there's any team out there that's going to give us the return we'd want for trading a guy like Konerko. I understand the organization is not in the best position it has ever been in. However, it seems like something has to give. Basically, the regulars on this board are telling me that our vets aren't worth enough to get any solid young talent, but our spects aren't good enough to get any good vets. I just have a hard time believing that. I think the pessimism is a little inaccurate regarding the value of some guys. Especially considering that I just read the Orioles' have so much interest in their players that they are having difficulty evaluating potential deals.

10:03 p.m., from Amy Nelson • If Brian Roberts is traded to the Cubs, it's believed that it might not happen until the Orioles complete a trade for either Erik Bedard or Miguel Tejada. According to a source with knowledge of Baltimore's trade talks, the O's have had so much interest in their players that they "have a lot on their table." But the relationship between Andy McPhail and Cubs GM Jim Hendry dates back several years, so a trade could happen faster than it would with other clubs. Rich Hill, originally thought to be part of a deal, is currently not in the discussions. Instead, Chicago likely would send upper-level prospects to Baltimore. Among the names being considered are Sean Marshall, Sean Gallagher, Felix Pie and Donnie Veal .

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 09:56 PM) That may well be the case, even considering the contracts. The problem is...the Angels don't always go for "fair value" when they're trading their young guys. They would have made more moves with them by now if they had, because lots of teams have salivated over their guys for 3 years now. Just because Konerko's value in our eyes may equal Kotchman and E. Santana doesn't mean the Angels would make that deal. I don't diasgree. Keep in mind mind Stoneman is not the GM anymore. Not that Tony Reagins is going to be a whole hell of a lot different, but I don't think you can necessarily use the last 3 years as much of a gauge this early in Reagins' tenure. Konerko is a guy the Angels' have been on for a while. Whether that still is the case, I can't be sure. But there are certainly signs that they are still looking for a power-hitting CI.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 09:53 PM) That makes a little more sense than the offer the Tribune floated. The O's might well demand Hill, Marshall, and that Gallagher guy. I would be surprised if they didn't receive Patterson as part of the package.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 09:43 PM) You also have to figure in the cash invovled. We would be getting basically 11.5 off the books for the next 3 years, which has a ton of value in itself. No, I agree. The cash is the only value there is, if you're talking about getting Kotchman and something minor back for Konerko.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 09:42 PM) And the Angels WILL NOT be even considering that deal. Perhaps not. But I think you are underestimating the value of Konerko and overestimating the value of Kotchman.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 09:34 PM) A trade like the one we are talking about are the types of deals the Sox need to look at. Kotchman is a good, young player that isn't at the level Konerko is at yet(I obviously think he is closer than others) but should get there. However, a deal could get done based on LAA needing a big bat NOW, instead of two years down the road. The Sox get a young bat that is comparable to Konerko, free up money, and have a younger core to work with. I agree with you, and this is the idea that sort of spurned the activity in this thread today. But I just don't see Kotchman as being a good enough player to move Konerko (for reasons not only on-field related) unless another significant piece would come back. If I was moving Konerko for Kotchman, I would demand Santana/Sean Rodriguez back as well.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 09:31 PM) The Sox are set at Tejada's positions. Well, I tend to agree with you on that. I was more giving an example of the sort of packages the Orioles look for in trade. For example, it was rumored that they wanted Wood/Saunders from the Angels for him.

Seems like it would be smarter to just go out and sign Fuku and Jones and keep your young pitching. I know, the Cubs are getting Fukudome, but I won't count him out until he actually signs somewhere. As for the Orioles, I was poking around on a solid board of theirs earlier, and they were speculating on a possible Tejada to the White Sox trade. They were suggesting asking for Gio/Quentin from us. The Orioles are notoriously difficult, but that could change a bit with McPhail running the baseball operations.

QUOTE(elrockinMT @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 06:05 PM) Yoy hear a lot of good things about Richar, but then the Sox are reported to be looking for a 2B man like Burke. Don't know what's up there. Well, to be fair, a source within the Sox organization told a reported for mlb.com not to look to much into the Sox trying to acquire Burke.

3:45 p.m., from Amy Nelson • Andrew Miller got a phone call within the hour from Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski that he was traded to Florida, which signals that the deal is official.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Dec 5, 2007 -> 03:03 PM) Fathom's proposition is no worse than all the people who turn "leadoff hitter" into a position, as if it makes some astronomical difference on how many runs a team will score. I understand it's absurd in the fact that never ever ever ever would Thome lead off, but in reality it wouldn't change a whole lot about our offense. The only thing you'd be assuring is that Thome -- the Sox' best hitter -- gets the most at-bats in that game or, in the hypothetical situation where he lead-off for a whole year, he'd get the most plate appearances. Basically, I think fathom was just trying to make a point about the people thinking we need a "leadoff hitter". Like if we got Andruw Jones or Aaron Rowand, the lineup would still be incomplete because it's missing a "leadoff hitter". Do you not want the hitter with the highest slugging percentage on your team to have hitters that can get on base in front of them?