JUSTgottaBELIEVE

QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 08:53 AM) Offense across the league is up significantly from last year. The MLB-wide OPS has jumped 20 points. Slugging is up 15 points. Players are hitting home runs every 32.6 plate appearances compared to 37.4 last season. Here's my favorite one - last year 19 players reached 30 homers. This year 20 players have, and we still have over three weeks remaining in the season. So even though Abreu's triple slash is practically a carbon copy of last year's (and that's good considering the long slump), the standard of offense is now higher. If he puts up the same numbers but all the other hitters get better, then he's less impactful. If he hits 30 homers again but so does everyone else, then it doesn't mean as much. He needs to raise his game too and for the Sox to compete he needs to be a star. That's not his fault, that's the front office's fault. Obviously he hasn't been figured out. That was wrong. Coming out and saying he's only done it when it hasn't counted is textbook moving the goalposts and also one of the more annoying arguments people make about any player. Flip the scenario around. If he had started hot and the Sox hovered 7-8 games over .500 until August, then he went in the tank and the Sox fell out of the race, would that be any better? Just look at a guy's line; trying to analyze his season based on where the team was in the standings when he hit is a meatheaded exercise. Nah, that's just the "James Shields effect." Unfortunately, Jose doesn't have the privilege of facing Shields this season.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 10:06 AM) It's also possible you only see one monster package now and another one next year after teams draft and make other possible moves that adds prospect depth. So yes, in some instances it makes sense to trade Sale for the huge haul and then trade Quintana a year or two later if you don't get 2 massive offers this offseason. But according to many in this thread there is only one way to rebuild and that is to trade all major league pieces as soon as possible, but keep Rodon, Anderson, and Fulmer. The ironic thing is Rodon is only controlled one year more than Q and the same length as Eaton so might as well trade him too then.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 05:51 AM) Ron's posts are a little extreme, but I don't necessarily disagree with him. He was a ghost offensively when the Sox were still in the hunt. He's killing it now, but it's much easier to pad stats when the games don't mean anything and there's much less pressure. Abreu isn't as bad as Ron makes him out to be, but it's not like he was some stud the first 3-4 months of the season either. So basically you are saying that Jose only performs well when the games don't mean anything (i.e. Basically his entire Sox career minus April and May of each season since they haven't been in a playoff race in the second half of any season during his 3 years here).

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 01:51 AM) To be perfectly blunt, that's BS I believe your typical Sox fan would be much more willing to watch a touted prospect take their lumps, than watch a Shields and Robertson wet the bed, or watch an endless parade of middling veterans "underachieving" That's not what we are talking about here. We're talking about watching a Lucas Giolito struggle every fifth day in place of Chris Sale. Judging from the reaction of many on here in watching the likes of Carlos Rodon and Carson Fulmer take their lumps, I don't think the fans will have much patience in watching the highly touted prospect involved in a Sale trade taking their lumps. Most are going to want immediate results (i.e. Prospects producing at a high level in the big leagues within a year or two).

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 10:46 PM) If we're rebuilding who cares if a prospect is capable of immediately producing on the big stage? We'd have plenty of time for them to take their lumps. And citing a batter's first 17 plate appearances as proof of anything is beyond ridiculous. I'd happily take Moncada & Benintendi as the centerpieces in a Sale trade. Unfortunately, I doubt the Red Sox would be willing to do that now. If they aren't willing to do it now they weren't willing to do it 6 weeks ago. Nothing has changed. We'll see how it plays out. Just remember for every Kris Bryants there are 2 Byron Buxtons. Unfair or not, the Sox fan base would absolutely expect to see immediate results from a top 10 prospect that is "MLB ready" involved in a Sale trade.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 10:40 PM) You are totally right. It's almost night and day the difference in frustration being expressed here lately with what was done so at the same time last year. Nobody seemed to mind the cumulative effect of the '13, '14, & '15 seasons with the seven year playoff drought last year. But 2016 changed everything. We've gone from a content fan base to a completely frustrated one just because of this year's ineptitude. I apologize - I clearly did not remember the mood of the fans from just one year ago. Who said the fan base was content last year? Dramatic much? I said the fan base is increasingly more impatient and frustrated now than they were a year ago (that doesn't mean the fan base was content last year) while you said they were equally frustrated and impatient last year. You're wrong. In absence of an official poll, I will let others chime in on this subject (well Caulfield already did).

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 10:27 PM) Lol - ok, I give up. You win. You're right - it was all peaches and cream with the fan base this time last year. This was the year when the straw broke the Sox fan base's back. Oh, for the calm and content of this time last year! On this I am absolutely right. Good luck finding someone to agree with you on this.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 10:13 PM) The frustration level is MUCH higher this year, because of: 23-10 start, then complete collapse James Shields apparent disconnect between KW and JR, no moves around trade deadline Chris Sale fiasco Guaranteed Rate fiasco LaRoche fiasco It's all getting to be just TOO MUCH. Even the biggest defenders of the front office and/or Ventura are realizing SOMETHING has to change, if only for change's sake. They've turned over almost an entire roster and half of another and are still making the same types of mistakes that you saw in 2013 or 2014. They've changed hitting coaches, but the talent is just insufficient to have anything more than a bottom quartile offense for a team that plays 81 homes games in a hitter's park. Exactly. The "possibility" of a Sale or Q trade at the deadline and then nothing happening really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. I think you left out one other big thing - the success of the north side club. The success of the Cubs and the notion that the Sox should mirror their plan (combined with the continued playoff draught), has led to 90% of Sox fans demanding a rebuild. Side note, It's a very small sample size and he's still very young but Yoan Moncada (the much desired centerpiece of a Sale trade) has struck out in 10 of his first 17 big league ABs, including his last 7 consecutive ABs. Welcome to the big leagues kid. Just another reminder that not all "can't miss" MLB ready prospects are capable of immediately producing on the big stage.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 10:14 PM) Go back and look at the threads from a year ago. Angst at the same level then as it is now. Nothing has changed on that front. WRONG

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:55 PM) LOL - are you serious?! Were you around for seasons 2013, 2014, & 2015? Those were three, long and brutal seasons for the fan base to endure. The Sox were last in TV ratings and 27th in attendance in all of baseball last year. If that doesn't translate to frustration to you, I don't know what will. Wow. Yes I'm serious. How many people on this site alone have stated that they have never been so frustrated and upset with White Sox baseball? There is absolutely more angst amongst the fan base now than there was a year ago at this time.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:39 PM) Same sense of urgency in place one year ago: long playoff drought and impatient fan base. Yet you saw the retooling efforts they expended last offseason. Again, do you really expect anything different from a payroll perspective from the owner? And what's your view if he won't raise the payroll? Then what? Do you honestly believe the White Sox fan base was as impatient and frustrated one year ago as they are today? I strongly disagree with that assessment.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:14 PM) The only real argument for "going for it" in 2017 is the additional presence of Tim Anderson (and hoping for no sophomore slump). Of course, in the 2nd half of 2015 it seemed as if Rodon had taken the next step too, and they didn't do much of anything to shore up the back end of the rotation. Everyone for months knew that Erik Johnson was likely to struggle and that the organization appeared to have soured on him. You had the usual concerns about Danks that have been there for the past 3 years or so. Turner was at best, a reclamation project. In the end, they were fortunate to come up with Gonzalez, but that was almost luck and the bottom line is they were resting on their laurels OR simply not willing to commit to spending more on the rotation coming into the season. If you want to lump Burdi and Fulmer in there with Anderson...and Collins in late 2017, you could take that approach...or you could also say there's no reason to rush Burdi and Collins and you need to see if they can develop as a starting pitcher (instead of reliever) and starting catcher (instead of DH), respectively. There's no reason to think Burdi shouldn't start the season with the big league club. He's ready. Based on DA's post from last night, I suspect the White Sox number 1 priority this offseason will be to trade Robertson. That frees up a significant amount of cash and clears the way for Burdi as the presumptive closer (not to start the season but by mid-late season). Also, I see no reason why Collins couldn't contribute to the big league club at some point late next season. He appears to be on the Schwarber plan and I'd expect him to start the season in AA with a promotion as early as June depending upon the state of the big league roster.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 08:53 PM) Well, he wasn't willing last offseason when we were essentially in the same situation as we will be heading into this offseason. With seemingly the same resources at his disposal as was available last offseason, what changes this time around where you might expect him to increase payroll to the extent necessary to acquire the quantity and quality of additions it would take to turn this lemon of a roster into a legitimate contender? I'm hopeful that a greater sense of urgency resulting from an increasingly impatient fan base will be enough for him to increase it $15-20MM higher than it was this year (roughly in line with 2011 levels). It's not saying much but they are on track for their highest season attendance since 2012 so I'm hoping that helps too.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 08:10 PM) If that's true, then he wouldn't have cut Danks, Latos and Rollins, brought up Anderson and added Shields. Of course, in the end, you can't cover catching injuries, CF and bullpen replacements very easily in the middle of a season when you have a barren minor league system. Meanwhile, lots of teams like the Cardinals, Indians, Rangers or Royals just muddle through any injuries because they have depth and talent at almost every position waiting for an opportunity. Good intentions with the shields trade but he targeted the wrong guy. At least he recognized they weren't going to be able to compete for the playoffs starting Danks every fifth day (unfortunately the same thing turned out to be true with shields).

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 07:25 PM) So it is your belief that we were not intending to compete this year? I think they intended to compete but sure didn't spend like it last offseason. I honestly believe even Hahn knew that the signings were destined for failure but he was likely given a hard cap on what he could spend. Do you think Hahn would have settled for guys like Latos, Rollins and Jackson if he was given a larger budget? That's why I have been saying that if they want to compete next year JR has to be willing to increase the payroll. They won't be able to compete otherwise.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 07:14 PM) Yes...we signed not 1 but a platoon of catchers. We signed a center fielder. Brought back Matt Albers. Do you really think we'll address those positions with more vigor next year? I would hope so if they are planning to compete. I don't consider signing 2 over the hill catchers and rapidly declining CF and SP as addressing those holes. Give me guys that aren't on a rapid decline in the prior year(s).

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 06:57 PM) But we tried to address those holes last offseason and what happened? Did we really?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 06:32 PM) Someone touched on this the other day and I have touched on it in previous weeks...so as of now Abreu is raking and Sale and Q are both pitching fairly close to what we would expect from them....and yet...WE ARE STILL NOT WINNING consistently. Who cares what things might "look" like. There is proof that even with these guys clicking, we still cannot win consistently. This simply is not working. But WHY aren't they winning consistently? Let's keep this very simple. Remove our 3-headed monster filling out the fifth starter spot (Ranaudo/Shields/Danks) and this team is 60-53. That's without even addressing the GLARING holes at catcher, center field, and middle bullpen.

I'm just surprised that OP and a few others bashing Jose earlier in this thread haven't returned since early August. Probably just a coincidence.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 04:32 PM) Abreu .298 now This offense sure looks a lot better when Jose is hitting like Jose. He has a good chance of ending with 100+ RBI once again and average over .300. He will probably fall just short of 30 homers again though. Nevertheless, very encouraging sign if they do give retooling a try for next season. Jose putting up an OPS of 900+ makes the entire lineup better.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 02:39 PM) I never suggested the Sox trade all of their vets for prospects.. I said the Sox have a golden opportunity this offseason, in a sellers market, to command prospects and established major leaguers for assets that will command more than simply lateral moves, as you are suggesting in your re-tool scenario... which players specifically then are you suggesting the Sox trade? and who are you trading them for?

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 02:09 PM) You are so far off of the rails with your argument at this point, it's getting to be almost impossible to follow you… First off, the franchise is not going to be sold.. It will be in the hands of JR until he passes on, and will be left to his heirs.. the investors are so remotely not considering selling that countless interviews have them totally in the dark as to how it would actually transpire… Forget your fantasy land Disney scenario of the Sox somehow magically re-creating 2005.. How many more years of failure is it going to take for you to be convinced that how they got their in 05', is simply ineffective at this point? The Sox have been "all in" since 2006, and except for backing into the playoffs in 08, and going out in the first round.. have absolutely nothing to show for it.. with the moving of Sale and/or Q in the offseason, the Sox have an unprecedented opportunity in a sellers market to possibly reload with established ML'ers. but also prospects who could be a part of the franchise for years to come.. Yes, nothing is guaranteed.. But the way I see the Sox don't have anything to lose at this point..especially considering they are mid market payroll, mid market revenue, still suffering the effects of a neglected farm, and an octogenarian owner, and a roster filled with talent, that if traded.. can only result in parallel moves…. But apparently you seem to be content (or maybe oblivious) to the fact that the fan base is seriously eroding, attendance at or near the bottom, rock bottom TV ratings, and an ungodly terrible record against the teams they absolutely need to be beat, to be considered a contender… we're not going to agree on this. you can believe whatever you want to believe that trading all of our vets for prospects will result in a Cubs-like turnaround. in my opinion, that is even more far-fetched than the retool and competing next year scenario I proposed.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 02:09 PM) I don't know if you've noticed, but retooling has not even come close to working out with this particular roster. And unfortunately, the retooling you've been suggesting wouldn't work either. Retooling isn't just about upgrading over the subpar players on the current roster and then claiming success. Retooling is getting players of a certain caliber that collectively can join the core and enable them to legitimately compete for a chance for the postseason. Adding Wieters, Volquez, Fowler and Moreland to this current roster does not get this team to that level. That's just the 2017 version of adding Melky, LaRoche, Robertson and Duke. you state everything so matter-of-factly. I have said that I believe that team can compete, obviously nothing is guaranteed. not sure how you know for a fact that team couldn't compete. I'm sure you took the Rangers and Indians to have the two best records in the AL this year too. since you know exactly how everything will play out, who is going to win the world series this year?

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 02:13 PM) You "retool" something that was good to begin with. Like a Navy sub with new electronics and missiles. you don't retool the Titanic. so the tigers were "good" last year? the red sox were "good" the last 3 seasons prior to this year?

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:58 PM) OK. There are two strategies that SORT OF make some sense: 1. Trade Sale and/or Quintana and the complementary parts for all the prospects you can (total rebuild) 2. Keep everyone essentially in place and try to catch lightning in a bottle again ("go for it") The one move that definitely does NOT make sense would be to trade all your complementary pieces but not Sale and/or Quintana (not even sure what this strategy would be called). That would get you exactly nowhere. So there is only one way to rebuild and that is by trading everyone? What would you call the moves the Tigers made last season or the Red Sox a couple seasons prior or the Rangers after the 2013 season? I guess they just retooled because none of those teams traded EVERYONE of value from their major league roster. I guess retooling can work out pretty well too.