JUSTgottaBELIEVE

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 09:19 AM) These aren't the kind of upgrades that will transform this current team into a contender. What you are proposing is same church, different pew from what's been happening through the retooling efforts of recent years, and which would inevitably result next year in yet another year of meaningless, boring baseball on the South Side. Time for a different approach. That's your opinion. Mine is that roster can be competitive. If not, unload at next year's deadline. I'm willing to wait the first 4 months of next season to let it play out and clearly the front office is as well.

Why do people assume a total rebuild will guarantee a higher level of organizational talent? Also if the Sox are going in that direction I'd much prefer to have a different front office pulling those strings. I'm sorry but when Jackie Bradley Jr is reportedly the centerpiece of a Sale trade I don't know how that improves the organization. Sure we don't know what other 3 or 4 prospects were requested but if they were guys like Devers/Kopech/Swihart I don't see how that dramatically improves the major league club now or in the future.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 07:17 AM) So Wieters and his .683 OPS, Volquez with his 1.47 WHIP, and some magical 3-4 game improvement by the existing cast in the bullpen will be what turns this 76 win team into an 86 win team? Ok, if that's the direction you'd like the team to go in. Meanwhile, some of the rest of us prefer a cease-and-desist on launching another failed retooling exercise and instead move in the direction of trying to successfully execute a full rebuild. It's time. Wieters would be a significant upgrade over Navarro and Volquez would be a significant upgrade over Danks/Shields/Ranaudo. Did I ever say they are all star caliber? No, well I suppose Wieters did make it this year due to a strong first half. I'm not asking for all star performance out of those guys but even serviceable would be a vast improvement over the black holes we have had at those two spots this season. And yes, with the addition of Burdi, Putnam, Petricka, and possibly one other arm via trade or free agency I expect the bullpen to be much better next year. It also helps when your fifth starter doesn't completely destroy your bullpen every 5 days, this aspect cannot be understated.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 10:58 PM) Fowler would be a legit upgrade in CF, but Moreland would only be a small one at DH/1B and Wieters doesn't seem to be much of an upgrade at all at C. That's not nearly enough improvement to make us serious contenders and will cost us a 1st round pick to boot. Not to be a dick, but that's a half-ass offseason plan if I've ever seen one, which is exactly what we need to avoid. Either go big or blow this s*** up. Can't keep being stuck in the middle. Considering Dionner Navarro and his negative WAR was our starting catcher for most of the year, Wieters would represent a significant upgrade. Also, Fulmer/Volquez should represent a HUGE upgrade at fifth starter. Consider the fact that the White Sox are 7-19 in games started by Shields, Danks, and Ranaudo (with an ERA around 8). For the sake of discussion I'm going to call that three headed monster the "fifth starter." Wouldn't even need a stud filling that spot but league average and this team is 5 or 6 wins better. I also expect the bullpen to be much better next year which I think can account for another 3-4 wins. Really not asking for much here and that's a ~10 win improvement if everything else stays the same.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 10:02 PM) Teams also won't deal major leaguers at the deadline. Generally that's true but not always. Regardless, I think most here are in favor of dealing major league talent for prospects, which will still be an option come July.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 07:43 PM) Your hypothesis has more holes than a 76-77 throwback jersey after Chris Sale got his hands on it With a limited payroll, weak FA buyers class upcoming, and not a lot of real strong prospects,to get anything of serious value ..what voodoo is the Sox FO going to perform by holding on to anything of real value, and still yet catapult themselves to an AL Central contender by opening day 2017? How do you see them acquiring these 3 or 4 acquisitions you speak of? With every passing opening day, you are closer to the Crown Jewels of the Franchise. Sale and Quintana ..being closer to the day they will no longer be cost controlled. Fowler - CF Eaton - RF Abreu - 1B Frazier - 3B Melky - LF Moreland or Alvarez (whoever is cheaper) - DH Wieters - C Lawrie/Saladino - 2B Anderson - SS Sale, Q, Rodon, Gonzalez, Fulmer/Volquez That team should absolutely compete for a playoff spot next year IMO. Wouldn't take a drastic payroll increase either.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 08:28 PM) Not sure you read his post. His theory is to wait until next July and if the team is still struggling blow it up. He thinks the trade pieces will be worth more next July. Meanwhile go out this winter and get a C, CF, 5th starter and DH. I asked how will you acquire the first two w/o trading since it didn't work last winter. I also don't agree guys like Eaton, Frazier and Melky will be more valuable next July than they will be this off-season. Melky is having a better than career year for example. Teams tend to get more desperate at the deadline and many teams actually prefer guys like Cabrera and Frazier on expiring contracts since they aren't committed beyond that season. That's why I think those guys may actually be more valuable next July. It's not like Melky, Robertson, Frazier are having career years. I already said I'd sign Wieters to fill starting catcher and Fowler to fill CF. If the Sox end up with an unprotected first round pick and Fowler receives a QO I may be more inclined to sign Reddick rather than Fowler. Both would provide a nice upgrade in the outfield. I prefer Fowler though because of his ability to play CF. Hopefully the Sox end up moving up a slot from their current position at #11 to #10.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 02:32 PM) I guess the eight year playoff drought doesn't bother you. And obviously you aren't willing to wait another 4 months of next season to start the rebuild. I am. I'd like to see it played out before unloading all of our major league pieces of value. Clearly many here think the White Sox have no chance to compete for a playoff spot next year with 3 or 4 acquisitions this offseason but I do. I don't think they are as far away as many here are portraying. There is so much parity in the AL and in the Central even with the way the Indians are playing that I believe plugging the gaping holes in this 25 man roster will result in a much better and more balanced team. It wouldn't take a star player to get much more production out of C, DH, CF, and 5th starter. Bullpens are funny too - add Burdi, return Putnam and Petricka, and pick up another arm and that will look like a completely revamped pen. Again, if they are out of it next July, sell the pieces then when they are arguably even more valuable than during the offseason.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 09:30 AM) Because the formula with them clearly isn't working, with the Sox well on their way to a second 76/77 win season with those fellas in key positions. And the approach of signing the additional guys who don't "cost a draft pick" or "cost big money", i.e. DUMPSTER DIVE moves, well, how did that work out for us this year. A big NO THANKS to a repeat of 2015 & 2016 in 2017, thank you very much. No, with the Sox YET AGAIN near the bottom of the barrel in both attendance and TV ratings, with a team that plays in a hitter's ballpark like the Cell but YET AGAIN is at the bottom of the league offensively, and most importantly, a team that YET AGAIN has failed to make the postseason for the eighth year in a row, it's time for a change, folks. Time to tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Shake this disaster at its core and let's go in a new direction. Any direction, because it can't be any worse than what the organization has been mired in for far too long now. TEAR IT UP! That's a very dramatic post but still doesn't change my stance that signing a few players this offseason and seeing if it comes together during the first half of 2017 is a good approach. If they are out of the race next July then sure tear it up. The Sox aren't losing any players of value this offseason and guys like Melky and Robertson might both be MORE valuable next July then they were this year or this offseason since they will have less money remaining on their contracts. I see no reason to be in a big rush here. This starting staff is going to be really great next season with the emergence of Rodon and Fulmer and possible addition of a capable #5 starter. Fill the holes in CF, C, and DH and see what happens. Players like Moreland and Wieters are not dumpster dives like Rollins, Latos, Avila, etc. but they will require JR to open the pocketbook a bit wider since they are another tier up.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 09:30 AM) Because the formula with them clearly isn't working, with the Sox well on their way to a second 76/77 win season with those fellas in key positions. And the approach of signing the additional guys who don't "cost a draft pick" or "cost big money", i.e. DUMPSTER DIVE moves, well, how did that work out for us this year. A big NO THANKS to a repeat of 2015 & 2016 in 2017, thank you very much. No, with the Sox YET AGAIN near the bottom of the barrel in both attendance and TV ratings, with a team that plays in a hitter's ballpark like the Cell but YET AGAIN is at the bottom of the league offensively, and most importantly, a team that YET AGAIN has failed to make the postseason for the eighth year in a row, it's time for a change, folks. Time to tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Shake this disaster at its core and let's go in a new direction. Any direction, because it can't be any worse than what the organization has been mired in for far too long now. TEAR IT UP! That's a very dramatic post but still doesn't change my stance that signing a few players this offseason and seeing if it comes together during the first half of 2017 is a good approach. If they are out of the race next July then sure tear it up. The Sox aren't losing any players of value this offseason and guys like Melky and Robertson might both be MORE valuable next July then they were this year or this offseason since they will have less money remaining on their contracts. I see no reason to be in a big rush here. This starting staff is going to be really great next season with the emergence of Rodon and Fulmer and possible addition of a capable #5 starter. Fill the holes in CF, C, and DH and see what happens. Players like Moreland and Wieters are not dumpster dives like Rollins, Latos, Avila, etc. but they will require JR to open the pocketbook a bit wider since they are another tier up.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 09:13 AM) The 2 Abreu homers went 430 and 465 ft. The 465 footer was the longest HR at Target field in the Stat-Cast era. Absolute BOMBS http://m.mlb.com/video/?affiliateId=clubMEGAMENU Oh yea Jose is back. With the addition of a few players, this offense is going to be much improved next season. This is what I want to see: Fowler Eaton Abreu Frazier Cabrera Moreland Wieters Lawrie/Saladino Anderson Really digging the balance of that lineup - speed at the top and bottom, high OBP at the top, and power in the middle. That's a lineup combined with top 3 in the league pitching that can win a lot of games.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 2, 2016 -> 01:52 PM) With a big September it's absolutely possible. So what changed? That's the question. The lineup looks so much better with a Jose Abreu posting a 900+ OPS, especially if the holes at C, CF, and DH are addressed this offseason. https://mobile.twitter.com/CSNHayes/status/...%7Ctwgr%5Etweet That's a decent road trip

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 4, 2016 -> 09:18 AM) They didn't sign Frazier - they traded 3 young players for Frazier. That's the problem. And for what end? They aren't contending, so why dump the young guys? Volquez, fine. I actually think Hahn might be able to build a team if he would acquire young players. The few snippets of him using that approach have been reasonably successful. But the model of building through vets that other teams want to trade, plus modest FAs has a very little chance of working even if well-executed. And Hahn's execution of what is a bad plan has been poor. Heck look at the Tigers...they get their best pitcher (and AL ERA leader) via a July trade of a veteran. Hahn has basically sat-out the July trading period, which heavily favors sellers. How do you not get rid of Robertson and Melky? It's mind-boggling. And yet none of those guys are free agents until after NEXT season. Why the big rush to dump them this season? I see nothing wrong with holding these guys and making a few acquisitions in the offseason to go for it again. If they are out of the race again next trade deadline then dump them at that time. If they are in the same position again next season and hold guys like Melky until season end with nothing in return, then I will criticize their "all in" approach. Until then I see nothing wrong with signing guys like Moreland, Volquez, Wieters, etc since they won't cost a draft pick nor will they cost big money. Maybe just maybe they catch some breaks and it all comes together like 2005. If not, wave the white flag next July and unload anything of value set to expire at the end of the season.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 4, 2016 -> 01:31 AM) When's the last time the White Sox were successfully able to execute this strategy to get a legitimately talented player back? The problem is signing players that end with essentially zero value or contracts too big to dump...or at least players that aren't dumped until the final year of their contract. And yeah, it would be nice if the Sox were as successful as the Cubs have been executing these veterans for younger talent or even talented "suspects" like Arrieta or Gavin Floyd. We'd have a much deeper farm system now at least. I do think it often comes back to financial limitations. Even to sign guys to short term deals in that mid tier. The Fowlers, Desmonds, and Fisters of the world are perfect examples. Rather than affording the one year $7-10MM range the Sox are restricted to the $3-5MM range (i.e. Jackson, Latos, etc) which does make a difference. So if JR is truly "all in" he is going to need to allow Hahn to increase payroll. It doesn't need to be a $50MM increase but probably $15-20MM increase. Also for those worried about Shields' $10MM the next two years (Sox portion). 2016 Danks + Latos + Turner + Gonzalez = 2017 Shields + Fulmer + Fister/Volquez + Gonzalez in terms of dollars while better accomplishing the goal of filling out the rotation (IMO). This even assumes Shields is thrown in the bullpen filling the current Turner role of mid/long relief (as bad as he is he would still probably be more effective than Turner in this role).

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 3, 2016 -> 09:01 PM) There's nothing wrong with signing the veteran IF you have the strong young core. But that's the problem...the Sox have a very thin core. The Sox core is 4 or 5 players with no depth. The Cubs had twice that, with depth. The Cubs traded their veterans to build their team. Look no further than how the teams approached Samardzija: the Cubs get their franchise shortstop, and then Rick Hahn, off of 73 wins, adds 1 year of Samardziaj for 4 young players. That trade alone showed the difference between a quality front office and a front office that doesn't know how to build a team. The have added veterans 2 years in a row to "go for it", and not only didn't make the playoffs, haven't come close to .500. Enough is enough. But isn't that another reason for signing mid tier talent like Fister or Volquez to short term deals? I mean it's not going to break the bank and if they produce you can dump them at the deadline for young talent if you are out of the race. It's not like signing them will cost a draft pick either. If they don't produce then you aren't stuck long term with a bad contract. Not sure why anyone would have a problem with those types of signings.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 3, 2016 -> 04:34 PM) Why that was more expectable from Fister than Latos I have no idea. Latos put up an 89 ERA+ in 2015 before the White Sox signed him, Volquez is at 88 this year. Fister is slightly better but also worth noting that both of those guys will be 33 next year. This is exactly how we got to where we are right now. Signing guys to be "good enough". This is the Rick Hahn Special thinking. Sign a guy that is good enough and your team will be good enough to make a run at the 2nd wild card when nothing goes wrong. This thinking has failed us repeatedly and will keep failing us. Stuff always goes wrong. Stop trying to build a team that is "good enough". Stop thinking about the wild card at all. The teams winning the wild card most years are teams that are plenty good to win a division the year before or the year after. Stop trying to assemble a team that is good enough and hoping that nothing goes wrong. Build a team that is clearly the best in the division. Build a team that is clearly the best in the league. Build the best organization in the league. Do that, and when something goes wrong, then you still have the Wild Card and a system that can support you with trades or callups when something goes wrong without it destroying your franchise. This mindset is how we got articles about how much better the catcher's slot would be this year than last year. This is how I got convinced that Keppinger was a good signing. This mindset is how we wound up with every other Rick Hahn Special. If we keep it up, eventually we'll win that 2nd wild card. As long as you're happy with 1 second-wild-card appearance every decade or two, then that's the mindset for you. It's how we got where we are right now, so as long as you're happy with where we are right now, then go right ahead. I want that thinking tossed out the window, because I'm tired of where we are right now. Are we talking about the same Mat Latos that only threw 116 innings in 2015 and has contended with injury concerns since his 2013 season? When the Sox signed him I said they'd be lucky to get 20 starts out of him and I'm pretty sure most on this site said the same thing. I'd expect more from Volquez and Fister absolutely. There is no question they are a tier above Latos and fully capable of filling out the back end of a rotation.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 3, 2016 -> 04:18 PM) How do you expect the Sox to have the money to sign another starter when we're already paying Shields $10M and will need significant financial resources to fix the offense? How much will a guy like Volquez cost? Guess? I'll say 2 years/$10-12MM. Not breaking the bank and only a few more million per year than what they gave Latos

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 3, 2016 -> 01:58 PM) After all, the "Rick Hahn Special" signing is how we got where we are today, and since we are happy with where this franchise is today we should keep doing the same thing. No one is happy with how the team is playing this year but there is no denying the fantastic front end of the rotation that has developed which has an ability to become even deeper if Fulmer reaches his potential. There is nothing wrong with signing a veteran on a short term deal for additional depth and to support the back end of the rotation. Heck even everyone's favorite team around here the Cubs signed 33 year old Jason Hammel to a 2 year deal to do exactly what I'm describing. Similarly Doug Fister was signed to a 1 year deal by the Astros. You just can't count on these guys to be front of the rotation starters but a low to mid 4 ERA and 160+ IP is a perfectably reasonable expectation and very valuable. Nobody expected that from guys like Latos, Paulino, etc. but I would expect that from guys like Volquez and Fister, which are another tier up. JR has to be willing to spend that extra $ to get guys that are serviceable rather than scrap heap headed out of the league types. This would mean expanding the payroll another $15-20MM next season.

I'm perfectly fine with going into next season with Omar as the backup catcher but still think they need to sign a starter in the offseason. I'm hoping for Wieters.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 2, 2016 -> 10:24 PM) Yes, but we saw that out of Rodon the second half last year as well. Didn't translate. At any rate, Shields, Gonzalez and Fulmer will make or break the season... I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that Rodon is only 23. I fully expect an ERA in the 3.30-3.50 range next season over 180+ IP. Legit #2 numbers by AL standards. As far as Shields is concerned, the new manager should not let him make or break the back end of the rotation. The manager has to have the balls and the ability to throw him in the pen if Fulmer is the better pitcher next spring, which I fully expect he will be. As I stated in another thread, I wouldn't be opposed to taking a flier on someone like Fister or Volquez on a 1 or 2 year deal as added insurance/depth since they will be relatively cheap.

With Rodon coming into his own, I'm really pumped about what this rotation can do next season. Sale, Q, Rodon form arguably the best 1-3 combo in the league and back it up with Gonzo and hopefully a solid Fulmer and that rotation certainly has the potential to be top 2 or 3 in the league. It's hard to break up a rotation that strong with 4 of the 5 guys under 30 yo still. I'm all in on building around that staff but the front office has their work cut out for them this offseason in order to improve other areas of weakness on the roster.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 2, 2016 -> 02:23 PM) There's a mutual $10 million agreement or $3 million buyout on Volquez. Will be an interesting decision. They theoretically have Vargas coming back. Duffy (last arb. season), Kennedy, Ventura...they don't want to start Young anymore, so back end of Gee, Vargas and Strahm plus $17 million freed up from Medlen/Volquez means they add another pitcher or 2-3 relievers. I'm assuming they buyout Volquez considering his performance this season. I'd take a flier at 2 years/$10MM

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 2, 2016 -> 01:57 PM) L Leave out Duke was traded, Petricka and Putnam not there, Gonzalez hurt, 40% of the rotation a gas can...the starting 2B out. The starting CF out. Yea, to me it really comes down to Shields and bullpen for the August failures. Both these areas should be addressed this offseason. Relegate Shields to the bullpen if he hasn't recovered any velocity next spring and start Fulmer. For extra insurance, might not hurt to sign a vet on a 1 or 2 year deal for less than $10 AAV. I'd be fine with someone like Fister or Volquez. Both would be upgrades to Shields while eating up innings and not costing a draft pick. Bullpen is a little trickier but I don't think it needs a complete overhaul. Just tinkering add another arm or two via FA/trade, promote Burdi, healthy returns of Putnam and Petricka (hopefully), and a better year from Robertson. Bullpens are fickle and it should be dramatically improved from what we just witnessed in August.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 1, 2016 -> 03:03 PM) What ought to concern is... What we saw in August is sort of how the White Sox are supposed to work right? Abreu putting up MVP numbers, Rodon Quintana and Sale all putting up ERAs under 3 for the month, production from the DH spot, normal numbers from Eaton, good numbers from Anderson, production from the catcher's spot, hell even a great 1/2 month from Garcia , he back 3 in the bullpen all present and healthy (Jones, Robertson, Jennings). And given all that, they still went 12-15 in the month. Fine, add in some extra bullpen depth and pretend no one gets hurt and that goes up to 13-14 wins...but man. Abreu's hitting like this and even then they're still a .500 team. Well not really. #1 Shields #2 Bullpen Those are two things that are relatively easy to address in the offseason.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 2, 2016 -> 10:53 AM) Abreu now at .814. He's so hot he might finish with a better OPS than last year, who knows? With a big September it's absolutely possible. So what changed? That's the question. The lineup looks so much better with a Jose Abreu posting a 900+ OPS, especially if the holes at C, CF, and DH are addressed this offseason.