JUSTgottaBELIEVE

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 09:53 AM) That's the opinion of a former executive, not from anyone within the White Sox organization. But thanks for proving my point with some much needed snark! Isn't this whole discussion hypothetical anyway? How do you know the Sox wouldn't consider a proposal built around a young high profile arm? My initial comment was in response to the article posted by Caulfield and the idea of what they "should" get in a trade for Sale, which was suggested as "huge-upside, young, controllable pitching." That's how I jumped to that conclusion.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 09:30 AM) I have argued elsewhere that I don't think it is either necessary, nor realistic to try to fill all of the holes with top tier talent. Fix the bullpen with one more solid LH reliever, fill the void of a middle of the order LH bat and make sure that the first 6 hitters in the lineup are very productive. The bottom third of the lineup could consists of good defensive players, who are not "black holes" on offense. Guys like Saladino, or Lawrie, the catcher and one more hitter, can fill the bottom of the order. That third player could be Anderson, unless he keeps up his current pace, which would put him somewhere further up in the order. There are few teams which have good offensive players at every position. If the top 2/3 of the order produces enough, that would be sufficient, with a good defense, great starters and a dominant bullpen. So how do you improve the top 2/3 of this offense? Barring any trades, which would subtract from the current roster, we have the following guys who fit into that top 2/3 of the order: Eaton Melky Abreu Frazier Add a potent LH hitting, middle of the order bat, and one more significant offensive contributor and the Sox could have a productive offense. Trading away one of the two best starters only creates a huge hole in the key area of starting pitching. If they are really going to "go for it" again next year, they probably can't afford to trade either of Sale or Quintana and may not need to. If you really think that they need to fill all the offensive holes with really good players, they aren't really ready to compete, and need to rebuild. In that scenario, sure, you could consider trading one of the two top starters. Agreed!

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 09:12 AM) Matt Davidson and Avi Garcia should be red flags in regards to anyone thinking these guys are better at identifying minor league talent. Don't forget future middle of the rotation starter Nestor Molina! Check out these Kenny quotes from 2011. In his eyes they already tried "rebuilding" back in 2011-2012: http://www.espn.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id...s-nestor-molina I think this is the same type of "rebuilding" that can be expected this offseason, which is why I predict their first move is to trade David Robertson.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 07:26 AM) How did you jump to this conclusion? Nothing in that article suggests the White Sox would accept a deal built around one high-profile pitching prospect for Sale. Did you even read the article? Actually I did read the article, did you? As stated in the article: Position players can be acquired more easily through free agency or trades involving lesser players, he said, so “you’ve got to get huge-upside, young, controllable pitching if you trade a once-in-20-years pitcher like Sale.’’

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 06:50 AM) http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/sale-it...consider-trade/ Sox might be targeting young starting pitchers and relievers for Sale... So let me get this straight. They would consider a Sale trade largely built around a high profile pitching prospect (i.e. Glasnow, Giolito) in hopes that guy can eventually turn into Chris Sale-lite? Better be getting a high profile MLB ready catcher or CF in return as well otherwise that does nothing to improve the team over the next 5 years. I'm not trading Sale for one big time SP prospect and a bunch of B level prospect position players and relievers. That's terrible.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 05:54 PM) True, you've provided specific names.. but you've also predicated most of your scenarios on the fact the JR woke up from a dream and a vision one night, a vision where he magically and mystically increased Sox payroll from middling, at least upper middling… Here's my plan.. I think YOU should be the GM .. screw Hahn, screw Kenny.. you're the man with the plan to take the Sox to the promised land… to walk the disgruntled and miserable fandom from the darkness... It's funny how you're challenging people for names and specifics, when the folks who are actually being paid to make the deals, probably aren't even sure at this point what is and isn't on the table…. My Plan? Let's see the Sox let go of the fact that they are Kings of Baseball when it comes to having the sweetest cost controlled players in MLB…. Then, let's see the Sox make some SERIOUS efforts to get the best and I mean, best in the biz.. scouts and talent evaluators…. Then, let's make Kenny Williams accountable for every dumb silly ego driven football-type move he's ever made.. and ever dumb silly thing he's ever said… Let's find a manager who didn't play for the Sox (Martinez being the possible exception) in the 80's, 90's or 00's.. who actually has some professional coaching or managerial experience… Let's figure out what exactly Don Cooper is contributing to the organization at this point, and if there's another out there better….. Let's find a hitting coach that absolutely refuses to let a player pick up a bat until that player has a plan against the given pitcher that day… Let's analyze and pick apart our Central division opponents, and build a team around beating THEM, instead of building a team around a core of contract friendly, cost controlled players And of course, as a priority, lets AGRESSIVELY shop both Sale and Quinana this offseason .. no, not mid season 2017.. THIS OFFSEASON.. and work from there.. the goal being an influx of properly evaluated young AND more established talent… Huh? The moves I suggested increase payroll to approximately 2011 levels. Why is that some sort of pipe dream? I'm not asking JR to spend $200MM next year or even $150MM. I agree with everything you say about the front office, coaching staff, etc. No argument there. I'm challenging the full rebuild crowd because I want to know how trading Sale and Q improves the outlook of this franchise over the next 5 years. So let's start with the basics. You are trading Sale and Q, what are you getting in return?

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 02:28 PM) You can read into it however you chose, but I interpret "tear it up" as abandoning the status quo and approach, as the Sox try to right the ship for the 2017 season. apply a fresh attitude and, like most intelligent business enterprises do consistently, come up with a new battle plan when things don't work.. instead of trying to fabricate a million and one excuses and woulda-shoulda-couldas when you pick apart the last failed campaign… and again, not really sure what is so hard for you to understand here.. trying to launch your primary rebuild mid-season isn't the wisest approach, because of the fact that teams in contention for the last couple of months, will be less likely to include establish ML'ers as part of any package…. So what's the plan then? Who are we trading and what are we getting back? You can talk in generalities all you want but at least I have provided specific names for my plan to compete next year. What's your plan?

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 03:58 PM) That is exactly what I meant by saying "tear it up", and you are correct, it ain't that hard of a concept to understand. When I hear "tear it up" I hear trade Sale, Q, and all other vets on expiring contracts within the next two years. So what is YOUR plan then since I have seemingly misunderstood? Who specifically are you trading and what players are you getting back?

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 01:12 PM) I agree about the ceiling. I don't think we're going to be able to do much better than the packages Cameron threw around at the deadline (Moncada/Kopech/B prospect, Benintendi/Devers/B Prospect, or Urias/Verdugo/B Prospect). Could get one big piece, but I'm doubtful that two big pieces are going to happen (ie: Moncada and Benintendi together). Would folks here be happy with that type of return? Is that the type of return that positively reshapes the entire outlook of the franchise?

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 09:30 AM) Because the formula with them clearly isn't working, with the Sox well on their way to a second 76/77 win season with those fellas in key positions. And the approach of signing the additional guys who don't "cost a draft pick" or "cost big money", i.e. DUMPSTER DIVE moves, well, how did that work out for us this year. A big NO THANKS to a repeat of 2015 & 2016 in 2017, thank you very much. No, with the Sox YET AGAIN near the bottom of the barrel in both attendance and TV ratings, with a team that plays in a hitter's ballpark like the Cell but YET AGAIN is at the bottom of the league offensively, and most importantly, a team that YET AGAIN has failed to make the postseason for the eighth year in a row, it's time for a change, folks. Time to tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Shake this disaster at its core and let's go in a new direction. Any direction, because it can't be any worse than what the organization has been mired in for far too long now. TEAR IT UP! So how do you define "time to tear it up" and "shake this disaster at its core"? You clearly do not want to wait until next July to "tear it up" so I can only assume you want to "shake this disaster at its core" this coming offseason?

QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 08:53 AM) Offense across the league is up significantly from last year. The MLB-wide OPS has jumped 20 points. Slugging is up 15 points. Players are hitting home runs every 32.6 plate appearances compared to 37.4 last season. Here's my favorite one - last year 19 players reached 30 homers. This year 20 players have, and we still have over three weeks remaining in the season. So even though Abreu's triple slash is practically a carbon copy of last year's (and that's good considering the long slump), the standard of offense is now higher. If he puts up the same numbers but all the other hitters get better, then he's less impactful. If he hits 30 homers again but so does everyone else, then it doesn't mean as much. He needs to raise his game too and for the Sox to compete he needs to be a star. That's not his fault, that's the front office's fault. Obviously he hasn't been figured out. That was wrong. Coming out and saying he's only done it when it hasn't counted is textbook moving the goalposts and also one of the more annoying arguments people make about any player. Flip the scenario around. If he had started hot and the Sox hovered 7-8 games over .500 until August, then he went in the tank and the Sox fell out of the race, would that be any better? Just look at a guy's line; trying to analyze his season based on where the team was in the standings when he hit is a meatheaded exercise. Nah, that's just the "James Shields effect." Unfortunately, Jose doesn't have the privilege of facing Shields this season.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 10:06 AM) It's also possible you only see one monster package now and another one next year after teams draft and make other possible moves that adds prospect depth. So yes, in some instances it makes sense to trade Sale for the huge haul and then trade Quintana a year or two later if you don't get 2 massive offers this offseason. But according to many in this thread there is only one way to rebuild and that is to trade all major league pieces as soon as possible, but keep Rodon, Anderson, and Fulmer. The ironic thing is Rodon is only controlled one year more than Q and the same length as Eaton so might as well trade him too then.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 05:51 AM) Ron's posts are a little extreme, but I don't necessarily disagree with him. He was a ghost offensively when the Sox were still in the hunt. He's killing it now, but it's much easier to pad stats when the games don't mean anything and there's much less pressure. Abreu isn't as bad as Ron makes him out to be, but it's not like he was some stud the first 3-4 months of the season either. So basically you are saying that Jose only performs well when the games don't mean anything (i.e. Basically his entire Sox career minus April and May of each season since they haven't been in a playoff race in the second half of any season during his 3 years here).

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 01:51 AM) To be perfectly blunt, that's BS I believe your typical Sox fan would be much more willing to watch a touted prospect take their lumps, than watch a Shields and Robertson wet the bed, or watch an endless parade of middling veterans "underachieving" That's not what we are talking about here. We're talking about watching a Lucas Giolito struggle every fifth day in place of Chris Sale. Judging from the reaction of many on here in watching the likes of Carlos Rodon and Carson Fulmer take their lumps, I don't think the fans will have much patience in watching the highly touted prospect involved in a Sale trade taking their lumps. Most are going to want immediate results (i.e. Prospects producing at a high level in the big leagues within a year or two).

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 10:46 PM) If we're rebuilding who cares if a prospect is capable of immediately producing on the big stage? We'd have plenty of time for them to take their lumps. And citing a batter's first 17 plate appearances as proof of anything is beyond ridiculous. I'd happily take Moncada & Benintendi as the centerpieces in a Sale trade. Unfortunately, I doubt the Red Sox would be willing to do that now. If they aren't willing to do it now they weren't willing to do it 6 weeks ago. Nothing has changed. We'll see how it plays out. Just remember for every Kris Bryants there are 2 Byron Buxtons. Unfair or not, the Sox fan base would absolutely expect to see immediate results from a top 10 prospect that is "MLB ready" involved in a Sale trade.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 10:40 PM) You are totally right. It's almost night and day the difference in frustration being expressed here lately with what was done so at the same time last year. Nobody seemed to mind the cumulative effect of the '13, '14, & '15 seasons with the seven year playoff drought last year. But 2016 changed everything. We've gone from a content fan base to a completely frustrated one just because of this year's ineptitude. I apologize - I clearly did not remember the mood of the fans from just one year ago. Who said the fan base was content last year? Dramatic much? I said the fan base is increasingly more impatient and frustrated now than they were a year ago (that doesn't mean the fan base was content last year) while you said they were equally frustrated and impatient last year. You're wrong. In absence of an official poll, I will let others chime in on this subject (well Caulfield already did).

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 10:27 PM) Lol - ok, I give up. You win. You're right - it was all peaches and cream with the fan base this time last year. This was the year when the straw broke the Sox fan base's back. Oh, for the calm and content of this time last year! On this I am absolutely right. Good luck finding someone to agree with you on this.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 10:13 PM) The frustration level is MUCH higher this year, because of: 23-10 start, then complete collapse James Shields apparent disconnect between KW and JR, no moves around trade deadline Chris Sale fiasco Guaranteed Rate fiasco LaRoche fiasco It's all getting to be just TOO MUCH. Even the biggest defenders of the front office and/or Ventura are realizing SOMETHING has to change, if only for change's sake. They've turned over almost an entire roster and half of another and are still making the same types of mistakes that you saw in 2013 or 2014. They've changed hitting coaches, but the talent is just insufficient to have anything more than a bottom quartile offense for a team that plays 81 homes games in a hitter's park. Exactly. The "possibility" of a Sale or Q trade at the deadline and then nothing happening really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. I think you left out one other big thing - the success of the north side club. The success of the Cubs and the notion that the Sox should mirror their plan (combined with the continued playoff draught), has led to 90% of Sox fans demanding a rebuild. Side note, It's a very small sample size and he's still very young but Yoan Moncada (the much desired centerpiece of a Sale trade) has struck out in 10 of his first 17 big league ABs, including his last 7 consecutive ABs. Welcome to the big leagues kid. Just another reminder that not all "can't miss" MLB ready prospects are capable of immediately producing on the big stage.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 10:14 PM) Go back and look at the threads from a year ago. Angst at the same level then as it is now. Nothing has changed on that front. WRONG

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:55 PM) LOL - are you serious?! Were you around for seasons 2013, 2014, & 2015? Those were three, long and brutal seasons for the fan base to endure. The Sox were last in TV ratings and 27th in attendance in all of baseball last year. If that doesn't translate to frustration to you, I don't know what will. Wow. Yes I'm serious. How many people on this site alone have stated that they have never been so frustrated and upset with White Sox baseball? There is absolutely more angst amongst the fan base now than there was a year ago at this time.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:39 PM) Same sense of urgency in place one year ago: long playoff drought and impatient fan base. Yet you saw the retooling efforts they expended last offseason. Again, do you really expect anything different from a payroll perspective from the owner? And what's your view if he won't raise the payroll? Then what? Do you honestly believe the White Sox fan base was as impatient and frustrated one year ago as they are today? I strongly disagree with that assessment.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:14 PM) The only real argument for "going for it" in 2017 is the additional presence of Tim Anderson (and hoping for no sophomore slump). Of course, in the 2nd half of 2015 it seemed as if Rodon had taken the next step too, and they didn't do much of anything to shore up the back end of the rotation. Everyone for months knew that Erik Johnson was likely to struggle and that the organization appeared to have soured on him. You had the usual concerns about Danks that have been there for the past 3 years or so. Turner was at best, a reclamation project. In the end, they were fortunate to come up with Gonzalez, but that was almost luck and the bottom line is they were resting on their laurels OR simply not willing to commit to spending more on the rotation coming into the season. If you want to lump Burdi and Fulmer in there with Anderson...and Collins in late 2017, you could take that approach...or you could also say there's no reason to rush Burdi and Collins and you need to see if they can develop as a starting pitcher (instead of reliever) and starting catcher (instead of DH), respectively. There's no reason to think Burdi shouldn't start the season with the big league club. He's ready. Based on DA's post from last night, I suspect the White Sox number 1 priority this offseason will be to trade Robertson. That frees up a significant amount of cash and clears the way for Burdi as the presumptive closer (not to start the season but by mid-late season). Also, I see no reason why Collins couldn't contribute to the big league club at some point late next season. He appears to be on the Schwarber plan and I'd expect him to start the season in AA with a promotion as early as June depending upon the state of the big league roster.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 08:53 PM) Well, he wasn't willing last offseason when we were essentially in the same situation as we will be heading into this offseason. With seemingly the same resources at his disposal as was available last offseason, what changes this time around where you might expect him to increase payroll to the extent necessary to acquire the quantity and quality of additions it would take to turn this lemon of a roster into a legitimate contender? I'm hopeful that a greater sense of urgency resulting from an increasingly impatient fan base will be enough for him to increase it $15-20MM higher than it was this year (roughly in line with 2011 levels). It's not saying much but they are on track for their highest season attendance since 2012 so I'm hoping that helps too.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 08:10 PM) If that's true, then he wouldn't have cut Danks, Latos and Rollins, brought up Anderson and added Shields. Of course, in the end, you can't cover catching injuries, CF and bullpen replacements very easily in the middle of a season when you have a barren minor league system. Meanwhile, lots of teams like the Cardinals, Indians, Rangers or Royals just muddle through any injuries because they have depth and talent at almost every position waiting for an opportunity. Good intentions with the shields trade but he targeted the wrong guy. At least he recognized they weren't going to be able to compete for the playoffs starting Danks every fifth day (unfortunately the same thing turned out to be true with shields).

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 07:25 PM) So it is your belief that we were not intending to compete this year? I think they intended to compete but sure didn't spend like it last offseason. I honestly believe even Hahn knew that the signings were destined for failure but he was likely given a hard cap on what he could spend. Do you think Hahn would have settled for guys like Latos, Rollins and Jackson if he was given a larger budget? That's why I have been saying that if they want to compete next year JR has to be willing to increase the payroll. They won't be able to compete otherwise.