JUSTgottaBELIEVE

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 02:40 PM) In 2013 Boston won the World Series and had Pedroia, Bradley, Bogaerts, Buchholtz and Ortiz. Had two down years but totally rebuilt their roster Through FA, trades and their farm they rebuilt their bullpen, starting pitching, catchers, RF, IB, 3B, LF. What players did they trade as young, talented, and controlled as the core six I mentioned?

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 11:11 AM) I'm convinced you are Kenny Williams. Name one team in the past 10 years that has undertaken a full rebuild with a core as young, talented, and cost controlled as Sale, Q, Rodon, Anderson, Eaton, and Abreu.

QUOTE (Sleepy Harold @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 12:37 PM) Seriously, I can't think of a single poster who's been more gung-ho on the "retool train" because, like every other year, we're only a few pieces away from "contention". Well that's because they are. Hopefully they add these important pieces this offseason unlike last offseason (and no I did not consider Latos, Rollins, Jackson, Navarro as an honest attempt to address those holes). Laugh all you want but this team is a lot closer to contention than most folks on here are willing to give them credit for.

Yes, people are starting to see the light! With a few offseason moves this offense should at least be league average next season and, quite frankly, that's all they need to compete with this starting rotation assuming the #5 spot is properly addressed.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 10:38 PM) Well not exactly. Even in his good stretch last year he was walking a lot of hitters, and was still essentially a two-pitch pitcher. Now he's flashing an above-average changeup and has considerably cut down on the walks. I'm really liking the addition of the change up. I know he always had it but he seems to be using it a lot more recently. That pitch looks like a difference maker and the kind that can elevate a guy from being a good pitcher to a great pitcher. Very exciting stuff.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 10:11 PM) He did the exact same thing in the second half last year. Let's see him put together an entire season before we pencil him in as an ace. He's even better this year. Walks are way down. He was at 4.59 walks per 9 IP last year while this year he is all the way down to 2.78. Coming into tonight, fWAR of 2.2 probably around 2.4 after tonight's game. Will end the season in the 2.5-3.0 range, which will give him 4.5-5.0 thru his first 2 seasons. Just for reference, Q was at 5.1 thru his first 2 seasons combined. Barring injury, there is no reason to expect anything less than #2/3 numbers from him next season with the potential to put it all together and post ace numbers like Q did in his third season.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 2, 2016 -> 10:15 PM) With Rodon coming into his own, I'm really pumped about what this rotation can do next season. Sale, Q, Rodon form arguably the best 1-3 combo in the league and back it up with Gonzo and hopefully a solid Fulmer and that rotation certainly has the potential to be top 2 or 3 in the league. It's hard to break up a rotation that strong with 4 of the 5 guys under 30 yo still. I'm all in on building around that staff but the front office has their work cut out for them this offseason in order to improve other areas of weakness on the roster. Really pumped about the emergence of Rodon. Looks better and better each time out. He's looking like an ace in the making and possibly as soon as next season. That rotation is downright nasty if they get that #5 spot tightened up.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 05:58 PM) A guy with a wRC+ of 100 is not an adequate #6 hitter when you only have one elite hitter in your lineup. And you want to commit to this guy as your DH/1B for the next three years? Signing B & C free agents are why we're in this mess in the first place because they have limited room to decline and remain productive players. Look at Melky Cabrera for example, he's dropped off slighty with the bat and suddenly he's a sub 2 WAR player. Mitch Moreland is only a league average hitter today, so doesn't take much of a fall-off for him to become a below a negative overall contributor. He is simply not the answer at DH, no matter how bad Avi has been this year. We need much more significant upgrade at that spot if we're serious about competing next year. Someone like Edwin Encarcion would make sense. Problem is his market will be crazy and we probably don't have the money to get a player like him. Can't keep signing Moreland type free agents and expecting a different result. White Sox don't need a lineup full of elite hitters. They need one elite hitter (Abreu), three good hitters (Eaton, Fowler, Frazier/Melky) combined with a lineup of league average and one or two slightly below average hitters to have an average offense overall. A team with a league average offense and very good pitching and defense absolutely can compete for a playoff spot. They already have very good pitching and with a few tweaks it can be great. They have average defense and with a few tweaks (most notably C and CF) they can have very good defense.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 02:49 PM) Why is he any better than Morneau has been? Morneau is at 96 this year and he's only played in 44 games. Players not named Morneau have received the lion's share of at-bats at DH this year for the White Sox. Besides Morneau isn't signed beyond this year and I'd prefer the guy that is 4 years younger.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 02:26 PM) Mitch has a wRC+ of 100 this year and a career average of 101. He is not an impact offensive talent. Is he a LH power bat and better than Avi's career wRC+ of 89? If so, then he is an upgrade and an adequate no. 6 hitter behind Fowler, Eaton, Abreu, Frazier, and Melky.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 12:46 PM) 2011 was a Classic Kenny Williams "go for it" year if there ever was one…. signing Crain and Adam Dunn, and extending AJ and Konerko… So if this is the type of "rebuilding" you are predicting for 2017, then we are truly f###ed As far as your Robertson prediction.. I hope JR is hungry, because if what you predict is true, he's gonna be chomping down on some salary…. I wouldn't be surprised to see them use the potential Roberston savings towards a FA acquisition(s) and for the 2017 "rebuild" to look fairly similar to the 2011 "rebuild". I still think it's more realistic they "retool" rather than "full rebuild". At the end of the day, I would be more surprised if they traded Sale than if they signed Moreland, Volquez, Wieters, and Fowler. Just my opinion.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 11:15 AM) Sox are currently 12th in the league in offense. Cleveland and Detroit stand at #3 & 4 respectively. How does the addition of these two second tier players even remotely put us in the same ballpark as those two teams? How do those two and Volquez close a 15 game gap with the Indians, and a 9 game gap with the Tigers? Are you just banking on those two teams tanking next season and, for the first time in a very long time, patchwork additions by the Sox catapulting them to the top of the heap? There's no doubt that Cleveland is a force to be reckoned with but they will still have some difficult decisions to make this offseason - resign Napoli and Davis? extend Santana or let him walk after next season? will Brantley make a full recovery from season ending surgery? can youngsters Tyler Naquin and Jose Ramirez continue performing at this high of a level? will Yan Gomes learn to hit again? They will most certainly enter next season as the division favorite but they are far from invincible. Consider this: the White Sox have a better, albeit slight, non-divisional record than the Indians. That just goes to show how poorly the White Sox have played within the division and how well the Indians have played within it but is this solely due to superior talent? If so, then why do the White Sox have a better record outside the division (43-37 vs. 45-41)? I still contend that filling the well-known gaping holes in this 25-man roster with average to above average talent (second-tier FA if you will) combined with changes within the organization (i.e. coaching, advanced scouting, etc) results in a team with the ability to contend for the playoffs next year. They don't need a top 5 offense to contend, league average will suffice, as long as they have a top 5 pitching staff and defense, which they are more than capable of. One final thought: Our fifth starter this season has a combined W-L record of 3-15 and an ERA of 7.77. So yes, the two starting pitchers that I have suggested as #5 starter candidates Edinson Volquez (10-10, 5.02 ERA) and Doug Fister (12-11, 4.14 ERA) would be MASSIVE upgrades from what they have gotten out of that spot this season. By massive, I mean 6 or 7 wins better just by replacing that one spot in the rotation with an average pitcher while keeping all else equal.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 10:53 AM) Well, to be completely accurate, what I said was: "Add a potent LH hitting, middle of the order bat, and one more significant offensive contributor..." I also said that Anderson may be able to stick in the top 2/3 of the order, which would mean that they would still be one bat short of an adequate top 2/3 of the order. Nevertheless, your question is still not only valid, but the most important one; Where are they going to find that one big bat? I have no idea, do you? I'd say the guys I previously suggest fill those needs: Moreland and Fowler. For probably a slightly higher cost, Alvarez and Desmond would work as well.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 09:53 AM) That's the opinion of a former executive, not from anyone within the White Sox organization. But thanks for proving my point with some much needed snark! Isn't this whole discussion hypothetical anyway? How do you know the Sox wouldn't consider a proposal built around a young high profile arm? My initial comment was in response to the article posted by Caulfield and the idea of what they "should" get in a trade for Sale, which was suggested as "huge-upside, young, controllable pitching." That's how I jumped to that conclusion.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 09:30 AM) I have argued elsewhere that I don't think it is either necessary, nor realistic to try to fill all of the holes with top tier talent. Fix the bullpen with one more solid LH reliever, fill the void of a middle of the order LH bat and make sure that the first 6 hitters in the lineup are very productive. The bottom third of the lineup could consists of good defensive players, who are not "black holes" on offense. Guys like Saladino, or Lawrie, the catcher and one more hitter, can fill the bottom of the order. That third player could be Anderson, unless he keeps up his current pace, which would put him somewhere further up in the order. There are few teams which have good offensive players at every position. If the top 2/3 of the order produces enough, that would be sufficient, with a good defense, great starters and a dominant bullpen. So how do you improve the top 2/3 of this offense? Barring any trades, which would subtract from the current roster, we have the following guys who fit into that top 2/3 of the order: Eaton Melky Abreu Frazier Add a potent LH hitting, middle of the order bat, and one more significant offensive contributor and the Sox could have a productive offense. Trading away one of the two best starters only creates a huge hole in the key area of starting pitching. If they are really going to "go for it" again next year, they probably can't afford to trade either of Sale or Quintana and may not need to. If you really think that they need to fill all the offensive holes with really good players, they aren't really ready to compete, and need to rebuild. In that scenario, sure, you could consider trading one of the two top starters. Agreed!

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 09:12 AM) Matt Davidson and Avi Garcia should be red flags in regards to anyone thinking these guys are better at identifying minor league talent. Don't forget future middle of the rotation starter Nestor Molina! Check out these Kenny quotes from 2011. In his eyes they already tried "rebuilding" back in 2011-2012: http://www.espn.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id...s-nestor-molina I think this is the same type of "rebuilding" that can be expected this offseason, which is why I predict their first move is to trade David Robertson.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 07:26 AM) How did you jump to this conclusion? Nothing in that article suggests the White Sox would accept a deal built around one high-profile pitching prospect for Sale. Did you even read the article? Actually I did read the article, did you? As stated in the article: Position players can be acquired more easily through free agency or trades involving lesser players, he said, so “you’ve got to get huge-upside, young, controllable pitching if you trade a once-in-20-years pitcher like Sale.’’

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 06:50 AM) http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/sale-it...consider-trade/ Sox might be targeting young starting pitchers and relievers for Sale... So let me get this straight. They would consider a Sale trade largely built around a high profile pitching prospect (i.e. Glasnow, Giolito) in hopes that guy can eventually turn into Chris Sale-lite? Better be getting a high profile MLB ready catcher or CF in return as well otherwise that does nothing to improve the team over the next 5 years. I'm not trading Sale for one big time SP prospect and a bunch of B level prospect position players and relievers. That's terrible.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 05:54 PM) True, you've provided specific names.. but you've also predicated most of your scenarios on the fact the JR woke up from a dream and a vision one night, a vision where he magically and mystically increased Sox payroll from middling, at least upper middling… Here's my plan.. I think YOU should be the GM .. screw Hahn, screw Kenny.. you're the man with the plan to take the Sox to the promised land… to walk the disgruntled and miserable fandom from the darkness... It's funny how you're challenging people for names and specifics, when the folks who are actually being paid to make the deals, probably aren't even sure at this point what is and isn't on the table…. My Plan? Let's see the Sox let go of the fact that they are Kings of Baseball when it comes to having the sweetest cost controlled players in MLB…. Then, let's see the Sox make some SERIOUS efforts to get the best and I mean, best in the biz.. scouts and talent evaluators…. Then, let's make Kenny Williams accountable for every dumb silly ego driven football-type move he's ever made.. and ever dumb silly thing he's ever said… Let's find a manager who didn't play for the Sox (Martinez being the possible exception) in the 80's, 90's or 00's.. who actually has some professional coaching or managerial experience… Let's figure out what exactly Don Cooper is contributing to the organization at this point, and if there's another out there better….. Let's find a hitting coach that absolutely refuses to let a player pick up a bat until that player has a plan against the given pitcher that day… Let's analyze and pick apart our Central division opponents, and build a team around beating THEM, instead of building a team around a core of contract friendly, cost controlled players And of course, as a priority, lets AGRESSIVELY shop both Sale and Quinana this offseason .. no, not mid season 2017.. THIS OFFSEASON.. and work from there.. the goal being an influx of properly evaluated young AND more established talent… Huh? The moves I suggested increase payroll to approximately 2011 levels. Why is that some sort of pipe dream? I'm not asking JR to spend $200MM next year or even $150MM. I agree with everything you say about the front office, coaching staff, etc. No argument there. I'm challenging the full rebuild crowd because I want to know how trading Sale and Q improves the outlook of this franchise over the next 5 years. So let's start with the basics. You are trading Sale and Q, what are you getting in return?

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 02:28 PM) You can read into it however you chose, but I interpret "tear it up" as abandoning the status quo and approach, as the Sox try to right the ship for the 2017 season. apply a fresh attitude and, like most intelligent business enterprises do consistently, come up with a new battle plan when things don't work.. instead of trying to fabricate a million and one excuses and woulda-shoulda-couldas when you pick apart the last failed campaign… and again, not really sure what is so hard for you to understand here.. trying to launch your primary rebuild mid-season isn't the wisest approach, because of the fact that teams in contention for the last couple of months, will be less likely to include establish ML'ers as part of any package…. So what's the plan then? Who are we trading and what are we getting back? You can talk in generalities all you want but at least I have provided specific names for my plan to compete next year. What's your plan?

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 03:58 PM) That is exactly what I meant by saying "tear it up", and you are correct, it ain't that hard of a concept to understand. When I hear "tear it up" I hear trade Sale, Q, and all other vets on expiring contracts within the next two years. So what is YOUR plan then since I have seemingly misunderstood? Who specifically are you trading and what players are you getting back?

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 01:12 PM) I agree about the ceiling. I don't think we're going to be able to do much better than the packages Cameron threw around at the deadline (Moncada/Kopech/B prospect, Benintendi/Devers/B Prospect, or Urias/Verdugo/B Prospect). Could get one big piece, but I'm doubtful that two big pieces are going to happen (ie: Moncada and Benintendi together). Would folks here be happy with that type of return? Is that the type of return that positively reshapes the entire outlook of the franchise?

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 09:30 AM) Because the formula with them clearly isn't working, with the Sox well on their way to a second 76/77 win season with those fellas in key positions. And the approach of signing the additional guys who don't "cost a draft pick" or "cost big money", i.e. DUMPSTER DIVE moves, well, how did that work out for us this year. A big NO THANKS to a repeat of 2015 & 2016 in 2017, thank you very much. No, with the Sox YET AGAIN near the bottom of the barrel in both attendance and TV ratings, with a team that plays in a hitter's ballpark like the Cell but YET AGAIN is at the bottom of the league offensively, and most importantly, a team that YET AGAIN has failed to make the postseason for the eighth year in a row, it's time for a change, folks. Time to tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Shake this disaster at its core and let's go in a new direction. Any direction, because it can't be any worse than what the organization has been mired in for far too long now. TEAR IT UP! So how do you define "time to tear it up" and "shake this disaster at its core"? You clearly do not want to wait until next July to "tear it up" so I can only assume you want to "shake this disaster at its core" this coming offseason?

QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 08:53 AM) Offense across the league is up significantly from last year. The MLB-wide OPS has jumped 20 points. Slugging is up 15 points. Players are hitting home runs every 32.6 plate appearances compared to 37.4 last season. Here's my favorite one - last year 19 players reached 30 homers. This year 20 players have, and we still have over three weeks remaining in the season. So even though Abreu's triple slash is practically a carbon copy of last year's (and that's good considering the long slump), the standard of offense is now higher. If he puts up the same numbers but all the other hitters get better, then he's less impactful. If he hits 30 homers again but so does everyone else, then it doesn't mean as much. He needs to raise his game too and for the Sox to compete he needs to be a star. That's not his fault, that's the front office's fault. Obviously he hasn't been figured out. That was wrong. Coming out and saying he's only done it when it hasn't counted is textbook moving the goalposts and also one of the more annoying arguments people make about any player. Flip the scenario around. If he had started hot and the Sox hovered 7-8 games over .500 until August, then he went in the tank and the Sox fell out of the race, would that be any better? Just look at a guy's line; trying to analyze his season based on where the team was in the standings when he hit is a meatheaded exercise. Nah, that's just the "James Shields effect." Unfortunately, Jose doesn't have the privilege of facing Shields this season.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 10:06 AM) It's also possible you only see one monster package now and another one next year after teams draft and make other possible moves that adds prospect depth. So yes, in some instances it makes sense to trade Sale for the huge haul and then trade Quintana a year or two later if you don't get 2 massive offers this offseason. But according to many in this thread there is only one way to rebuild and that is to trade all major league pieces as soon as possible, but keep Rodon, Anderson, and Fulmer. The ironic thing is Rodon is only controlled one year more than Q and the same length as Eaton so might as well trade him too then.