JUSTgottaBELIEVE

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 06:13 PM) That's still not going to be near enough. Cleveland and Detroit are #3 & 4, respectively, in league offense this season, while the Sox remain towards the bottom at #12. You are adding Wieters as an upgrade at catcher. Ok, but his sparkling .683 OPS isn't going to put much of a dent in reducing that gap between the Sox and their two main division rivals on offense. Who else are you bringing in that will close that gap and help stifle those who believe a rebuild is in order? Moreland? Still coming up a bit short there, I'm afraid. Similarly, with Cleveland having superior pitching overall to that of the Sox, and Detroit arguably a notch or two higher, how does Volquez and his 1.47 WHIP improve our chances to compete with those two teams? Remember, it's not about upgrading from the garbage we saw this year. It's about upgrading to a point that puts us in a position to win the division and/or compete for a wildcard. I'm afraid the addition of Volquez and return of Petricka and Putnam doesn't get us close to those other two teams, either. In other words, you are far overrating the current roster, and underestimating the extent to which the quantity and quality of upgrades to the team would need to be for the Sox to compete for the postseason next year. See post #270 in this thread Also much of the upgrade at catcher with Wieters is primarily due to his defense not his offense as you continue to suggest.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 05:48 PM) Players that can, according to your standard, magically transform the Sox into "a team that can absolutely compete for a play off spot" And I don't mean jumping over 5 or 6 teams and 5 or 6 back of WC 2 for the duration of the year. So you think replacing Navarro/Avila with Wieters, Schuck with Fowler, Shields/Danks/Ranuado with Volquez, Avi/Morneau with Moreland, and Albers/Kahnle/Ynoa with Burdi/Putnam/Petricka will have little to no impact on the number of wins next season? That's an interesting thought. I happen to think that those additions could result in as many as 10 additional wins and a total in the upper 80s, which absolutely positions them to be a playoff contender. Sure I will admit that a lot has to go right but if it doesn't then tear it down in July and sell off anything of value not in the mid-long term plan. I feel it's a very prudent approach.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 04:42 PM) Matt Latos made a huge impact for four starts... I'd be curious to see what his definition is. Did Indians fans think adding Napoli (age 34) and Davis (age 35) would add "anything of impact" coming into this season? Did Rangers fans think Ian Desmomd (the guy that no one else wanted) would have this type of impact (ie. outproducing Gordon, Upton, and Cespedes)?

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 04:11 PM) well, let's put it this way.. the kind of payroll that is required to acquire anyone of any impact…. not impossible but unlikely.. What's your definition of "anyone of any impact"?

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 03:39 PM) The biggest hole of all in your argument, dude….is that JR is gonna all of sudden magically add payroll.. not gonna happen... How do you know this?

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 02:49 PM) The "throw anything against the wall and hope it'll stick" approach? Sure, it sounds familiar. It's been happening for quite some time with Williams and Hahn at the helm. Great way to build a team capable of sustainable winning, eh? I did not agree with signing Rollins, Latos, and Avila/Navarro this past offseason. Would have much preferred signing Desmond and Fowler to 3 year deals and someone like Fister to a 1 or 2 year deal while sticking with Flowers for another year once Wieters accepted the QO. I would still give Fowler a 3 year contract this offseason but it's even harder now because they likely won't have a protected 1st pick or a comp pick for losing shark. I think that's where the front office blew it by not truly going all in last offseason. I'd still like to see them go for it this offseason by signing the before mentioned vets that have shown the ability to succeed in the AL and are still producing this year at a much higher level than our current options at C, CF, #5 SP, etc. Still have to be strategic in these signings can't just willy nilly sign whoever is left at the end of the offseason. But again this is tied to payroll constraints so JR needs to open the checkbook a bit wider than he did last offseason if wants the "all in" approach.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 12:56 PM) They did do a good job at the rebuild both times they did it during the times you referenced, and to use Reinsdorf speak, they got from Point A to Point B. Where they came up short was getting to Point C, but that's not what we are talking about here. We are not at Point B right now, so what I'd personally like to see is the effort to do the Point A to Point B exercise again, and then deal with getting to Point C when the time comes. Right now, I really don't know at what point this team is at all. Seems stuck somewhere in the middle, quite honestly. And still the only baseball championship that either side of town has witnessed during our lifetime is the one following an offseason of patching obvious holes at catcher, second base, right field, fifth starter, and bullpen with mid-tier free agents and trades. Sound familiar? I think this whole discussion goes back to how far away one thinks this roster is from being a contender. I happen to think filling the obvious holes in the 25-man roster with productive players will result in a competitive team. As much as people keep saying it, last offseason was not "all in." If anything, that was a "stand pat" approach. What was their most expensive signing? Austin Jackson for 1 year at $5MM? I'm advocating signing 4 guys that exceed that type of contract but also don't reach the level of a Cespedes or Encarnacion - more in line with the 2014/2015 offseason approach because I believe the Sox have less holes to fill now than they did in 2014.

and for those thinking mid-tier free agent signings never work out just take a look at the Indians this year. They aren't nearly as good without the free agent signings of Rajai Davis and Mike Napoli.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 11:38 AM) The irony here is that you are willing to trust this front office with a job that they have a poor established track record on, i.e., retooling, but are unwilling to trust them with a job like rebuilding for which we actually don't know how good they'd do at such a thing. It's not ironic at all. Would you agree that missing on the prospects involved in a Sale/Q package is much more detrimental to the long term future of the franchise than missing on a 2-year FA deal for someone like Moreland or Volquez? In one case, you no longer have Sale/Q and a bunch of crappy prospects/major leaguers. In the other case, you still have Sale/Q and a bunch o crappy prospects/major leaguers. If you are going the total rebuild option you better be damn sure you have the best front office and scouts in place to make those decisions - do you think we do? It's ironic that anyone thinking a front office that has failed with previous trades and FA acquisitions will excel in a total rebuild. That makes no sense to me. Sign a few mid-tier free agents this offseason, a new manager, and see if it comes together. If it's still broken come mid-late June then there better be a clean out of the front office and let the new front office start the rebuild process in late July by unloading Melky, Frazier, Gonzalez, and Robertson. They can even wait until the following offseason to trade Sale and Q if they don't get blown away at the deadline. Those guys are under team control thru 2019 for goodness sake.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 09:40 AM) Now you're all over the place. You don't trust the front office, but yet you're on board with them retooling with basically the same approach as has been exhibited over multiple seasons. Mix and match a bunch of middling, serviceable players. What? Retooling with guys like Wieters, Moreland, Volquez is not rocket science. These guys are known commodities and have shown they can succeed in the AL. They are also guys that will not require excessive long term, high dollar commitments that can make or break the future of the franchise. Trading all of our vets for a bunch of prospects is something else altogether. If we are going that route, I'd prefer to do it with a different front office. If you screw that up you really can break the franchise much worse than it is currently broken. How well has the rebuild worked for the twins since 2010? They are still 2-3 years away from fielding a competitive team in the best case scenario, which is still no guarantee. Not all can't miss prospects turn out to be stars - just ask the twins about their one time #1 overall prospect in baseball Byron Buxton. MAYBE he will be an all star by the team he reaches free agency but MAYBE he will be a fourth outfielder too.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 09:19 AM) These aren't the kind of upgrades that will transform this current team into a contender. What you are proposing is same church, different pew from what's been happening through the retooling efforts of recent years, and which would inevitably result next year in yet another year of meaningless, boring baseball on the South Side. Time for a different approach. That's your opinion. Mine is that roster can be competitive. If not, unload at next year's deadline. I'm willing to wait the first 4 months of next season to let it play out and clearly the front office is as well.

Why do people assume a total rebuild will guarantee a higher level of organizational talent? Also if the Sox are going in that direction I'd much prefer to have a different front office pulling those strings. I'm sorry but when Jackie Bradley Jr is reportedly the centerpiece of a Sale trade I don't know how that improves the organization. Sure we don't know what other 3 or 4 prospects were requested but if they were guys like Devers/Kopech/Swihart I don't see how that dramatically improves the major league club now or in the future.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 07:17 AM) So Wieters and his .683 OPS, Volquez with his 1.47 WHIP, and some magical 3-4 game improvement by the existing cast in the bullpen will be what turns this 76 win team into an 86 win team? Ok, if that's the direction you'd like the team to go in. Meanwhile, some of the rest of us prefer a cease-and-desist on launching another failed retooling exercise and instead move in the direction of trying to successfully execute a full rebuild. It's time. Wieters would be a significant upgrade over Navarro and Volquez would be a significant upgrade over Danks/Shields/Ranaudo. Did I ever say they are all star caliber? No, well I suppose Wieters did make it this year due to a strong first half. I'm not asking for all star performance out of those guys but even serviceable would be a vast improvement over the black holes we have had at those two spots this season. And yes, with the addition of Burdi, Putnam, Petricka, and possibly one other arm via trade or free agency I expect the bullpen to be much better next year. It also helps when your fifth starter doesn't completely destroy your bullpen every 5 days, this aspect cannot be understated.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 10:58 PM) Fowler would be a legit upgrade in CF, but Moreland would only be a small one at DH/1B and Wieters doesn't seem to be much of an upgrade at all at C. That's not nearly enough improvement to make us serious contenders and will cost us a 1st round pick to boot. Not to be a dick, but that's a half-ass offseason plan if I've ever seen one, which is exactly what we need to avoid. Either go big or blow this s*** up. Can't keep being stuck in the middle. Considering Dionner Navarro and his negative WAR was our starting catcher for most of the year, Wieters would represent a significant upgrade. Also, Fulmer/Volquez should represent a HUGE upgrade at fifth starter. Consider the fact that the White Sox are 7-19 in games started by Shields, Danks, and Ranaudo (with an ERA around 8). For the sake of discussion I'm going to call that three headed monster the "fifth starter." Wouldn't even need a stud filling that spot but league average and this team is 5 or 6 wins better. I also expect the bullpen to be much better next year which I think can account for another 3-4 wins. Really not asking for much here and that's a ~10 win improvement if everything else stays the same.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 10:02 PM) Teams also won't deal major leaguers at the deadline. Generally that's true but not always. Regardless, I think most here are in favor of dealing major league talent for prospects, which will still be an option come July.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 07:43 PM) Your hypothesis has more holes than a 76-77 throwback jersey after Chris Sale got his hands on it With a limited payroll, weak FA buyers class upcoming, and not a lot of real strong prospects,to get anything of serious value ..what voodoo is the Sox FO going to perform by holding on to anything of real value, and still yet catapult themselves to an AL Central contender by opening day 2017? How do you see them acquiring these 3 or 4 acquisitions you speak of? With every passing opening day, you are closer to the Crown Jewels of the Franchise. Sale and Quintana ..being closer to the day they will no longer be cost controlled. Fowler - CF Eaton - RF Abreu - 1B Frazier - 3B Melky - LF Moreland or Alvarez (whoever is cheaper) - DH Wieters - C Lawrie/Saladino - 2B Anderson - SS Sale, Q, Rodon, Gonzalez, Fulmer/Volquez That team should absolutely compete for a playoff spot next year IMO. Wouldn't take a drastic payroll increase either.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 08:28 PM) Not sure you read his post. His theory is to wait until next July and if the team is still struggling blow it up. He thinks the trade pieces will be worth more next July. Meanwhile go out this winter and get a C, CF, 5th starter and DH. I asked how will you acquire the first two w/o trading since it didn't work last winter. I also don't agree guys like Eaton, Frazier and Melky will be more valuable next July than they will be this off-season. Melky is having a better than career year for example. Teams tend to get more desperate at the deadline and many teams actually prefer guys like Cabrera and Frazier on expiring contracts since they aren't committed beyond that season. That's why I think those guys may actually be more valuable next July. It's not like Melky, Robertson, Frazier are having career years. I already said I'd sign Wieters to fill starting catcher and Fowler to fill CF. If the Sox end up with an unprotected first round pick and Fowler receives a QO I may be more inclined to sign Reddick rather than Fowler. Both would provide a nice upgrade in the outfield. I prefer Fowler though because of his ability to play CF. Hopefully the Sox end up moving up a slot from their current position at #11 to #10.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 02:32 PM) I guess the eight year playoff drought doesn't bother you. And obviously you aren't willing to wait another 4 months of next season to start the rebuild. I am. I'd like to see it played out before unloading all of our major league pieces of value. Clearly many here think the White Sox have no chance to compete for a playoff spot next year with 3 or 4 acquisitions this offseason but I do. I don't think they are as far away as many here are portraying. There is so much parity in the AL and in the Central even with the way the Indians are playing that I believe plugging the gaping holes in this 25 man roster will result in a much better and more balanced team. It wouldn't take a star player to get much more production out of C, DH, CF, and 5th starter. Bullpens are funny too - add Burdi, return Putnam and Petricka, and pick up another arm and that will look like a completely revamped pen. Again, if they are out of it next July, sell the pieces then when they are arguably even more valuable than during the offseason.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 09:30 AM) Because the formula with them clearly isn't working, with the Sox well on their way to a second 76/77 win season with those fellas in key positions. And the approach of signing the additional guys who don't "cost a draft pick" or "cost big money", i.e. DUMPSTER DIVE moves, well, how did that work out for us this year. A big NO THANKS to a repeat of 2015 & 2016 in 2017, thank you very much. No, with the Sox YET AGAIN near the bottom of the barrel in both attendance and TV ratings, with a team that plays in a hitter's ballpark like the Cell but YET AGAIN is at the bottom of the league offensively, and most importantly, a team that YET AGAIN has failed to make the postseason for the eighth year in a row, it's time for a change, folks. Time to tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Shake this disaster at its core and let's go in a new direction. Any direction, because it can't be any worse than what the organization has been mired in for far too long now. TEAR IT UP! That's a very dramatic post but still doesn't change my stance that signing a few players this offseason and seeing if it comes together during the first half of 2017 is a good approach. If they are out of the race next July then sure tear it up. The Sox aren't losing any players of value this offseason and guys like Melky and Robertson might both be MORE valuable next July then they were this year or this offseason since they will have less money remaining on their contracts. I see no reason to be in a big rush here. This starting staff is going to be really great next season with the emergence of Rodon and Fulmer and possible addition of a capable #5 starter. Fill the holes in CF, C, and DH and see what happens. Players like Moreland and Wieters are not dumpster dives like Rollins, Latos, Avila, etc. but they will require JR to open the pocketbook a bit wider since they are another tier up.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 09:30 AM) Because the formula with them clearly isn't working, with the Sox well on their way to a second 76/77 win season with those fellas in key positions. And the approach of signing the additional guys who don't "cost a draft pick" or "cost big money", i.e. DUMPSTER DIVE moves, well, how did that work out for us this year. A big NO THANKS to a repeat of 2015 & 2016 in 2017, thank you very much. No, with the Sox YET AGAIN near the bottom of the barrel in both attendance and TV ratings, with a team that plays in a hitter's ballpark like the Cell but YET AGAIN is at the bottom of the league offensively, and most importantly, a team that YET AGAIN has failed to make the postseason for the eighth year in a row, it's time for a change, folks. Time to tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Shake this disaster at its core and let's go in a new direction. Any direction, because it can't be any worse than what the organization has been mired in for far too long now. TEAR IT UP! That's a very dramatic post but still doesn't change my stance that signing a few players this offseason and seeing if it comes together during the first half of 2017 is a good approach. If they are out of the race next July then sure tear it up. The Sox aren't losing any players of value this offseason and guys like Melky and Robertson might both be MORE valuable next July then they were this year or this offseason since they will have less money remaining on their contracts. I see no reason to be in a big rush here. This starting staff is going to be really great next season with the emergence of Rodon and Fulmer and possible addition of a capable #5 starter. Fill the holes in CF, C, and DH and see what happens. Players like Moreland and Wieters are not dumpster dives like Rollins, Latos, Avila, etc. but they will require JR to open the pocketbook a bit wider since they are another tier up.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 09:13 AM) The 2 Abreu homers went 430 and 465 ft. The 465 footer was the longest HR at Target field in the Stat-Cast era. Absolute BOMBS http://m.mlb.com/video/?affiliateId=clubMEGAMENU Oh yea Jose is back. With the addition of a few players, this offense is going to be much improved next season. This is what I want to see: Fowler Eaton Abreu Frazier Cabrera Moreland Wieters Lawrie/Saladino Anderson Really digging the balance of that lineup - speed at the top and bottom, high OBP at the top, and power in the middle. That's a lineup combined with top 3 in the league pitching that can win a lot of games.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 2, 2016 -> 01:52 PM) With a big September it's absolutely possible. So what changed? That's the question. The lineup looks so much better with a Jose Abreu posting a 900+ OPS, especially if the holes at C, CF, and DH are addressed this offseason. https://mobile.twitter.com/CSNHayes/status/...%7Ctwgr%5Etweet That's a decent road trip

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 4, 2016 -> 09:18 AM) They didn't sign Frazier - they traded 3 young players for Frazier. That's the problem. And for what end? They aren't contending, so why dump the young guys? Volquez, fine. I actually think Hahn might be able to build a team if he would acquire young players. The few snippets of him using that approach have been reasonably successful. But the model of building through vets that other teams want to trade, plus modest FAs has a very little chance of working even if well-executed. And Hahn's execution of what is a bad plan has been poor. Heck look at the Tigers...they get their best pitcher (and AL ERA leader) via a July trade of a veteran. Hahn has basically sat-out the July trading period, which heavily favors sellers. How do you not get rid of Robertson and Melky? It's mind-boggling. And yet none of those guys are free agents until after NEXT season. Why the big rush to dump them this season? I see nothing wrong with holding these guys and making a few acquisitions in the offseason to go for it again. If they are out of the race again next trade deadline then dump them at that time. If they are in the same position again next season and hold guys like Melky until season end with nothing in return, then I will criticize their "all in" approach. Until then I see nothing wrong with signing guys like Moreland, Volquez, Wieters, etc since they won't cost a draft pick nor will they cost big money. Maybe just maybe they catch some breaks and it all comes together like 2005. If not, wave the white flag next July and unload anything of value set to expire at the end of the season.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 4, 2016 -> 01:31 AM) When's the last time the White Sox were successfully able to execute this strategy to get a legitimately talented player back? The problem is signing players that end with essentially zero value or contracts too big to dump...or at least players that aren't dumped until the final year of their contract. And yeah, it would be nice if the Sox were as successful as the Cubs have been executing these veterans for younger talent or even talented "suspects" like Arrieta or Gavin Floyd. We'd have a much deeper farm system now at least. I do think it often comes back to financial limitations. Even to sign guys to short term deals in that mid tier. The Fowlers, Desmonds, and Fisters of the world are perfect examples. Rather than affording the one year $7-10MM range the Sox are restricted to the $3-5MM range (i.e. Jackson, Latos, etc) which does make a difference. So if JR is truly "all in" he is going to need to allow Hahn to increase payroll. It doesn't need to be a $50MM increase but probably $15-20MM increase. Also for those worried about Shields' $10MM the next two years (Sox portion). 2016 Danks + Latos + Turner + Gonzalez = 2017 Shields + Fulmer + Fister/Volquez + Gonzalez in terms of dollars while better accomplishing the goal of filling out the rotation (IMO). This even assumes Shields is thrown in the bullpen filling the current Turner role of mid/long relief (as bad as he is he would still probably be more effective than Turner in this role).

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 3, 2016 -> 09:01 PM) There's nothing wrong with signing the veteran IF you have the strong young core. But that's the problem...the Sox have a very thin core. The Sox core is 4 or 5 players with no depth. The Cubs had twice that, with depth. The Cubs traded their veterans to build their team. Look no further than how the teams approached Samardzija: the Cubs get their franchise shortstop, and then Rick Hahn, off of 73 wins, adds 1 year of Samardziaj for 4 young players. That trade alone showed the difference between a quality front office and a front office that doesn't know how to build a team. The have added veterans 2 years in a row to "go for it", and not only didn't make the playoffs, haven't come close to .500. Enough is enough. But isn't that another reason for signing mid tier talent like Fister or Volquez to short term deals? I mean it's not going to break the bank and if they produce you can dump them at the deadline for young talent if you are out of the race. It's not like signing them will cost a draft pick either. If they don't produce then you aren't stuck long term with a bad contract. Not sure why anyone would have a problem with those types of signings.