JUSTgottaBELIEVE

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:55 PM) LOL - are you serious?! Were you around for seasons 2013, 2014, & 2015? Those were three, long and brutal seasons for the fan base to endure. The Sox were last in TV ratings and 27th in attendance in all of baseball last year. If that doesn't translate to frustration to you, I don't know what will. Wow. Yes I'm serious. How many people on this site alone have stated that they have never been so frustrated and upset with White Sox baseball? There is absolutely more angst amongst the fan base now than there was a year ago at this time.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:39 PM) Same sense of urgency in place one year ago: long playoff drought and impatient fan base. Yet you saw the retooling efforts they expended last offseason. Again, do you really expect anything different from a payroll perspective from the owner? And what's your view if he won't raise the payroll? Then what? Do you honestly believe the White Sox fan base was as impatient and frustrated one year ago as they are today? I strongly disagree with that assessment.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:14 PM) The only real argument for "going for it" in 2017 is the additional presence of Tim Anderson (and hoping for no sophomore slump). Of course, in the 2nd half of 2015 it seemed as if Rodon had taken the next step too, and they didn't do much of anything to shore up the back end of the rotation. Everyone for months knew that Erik Johnson was likely to struggle and that the organization appeared to have soured on him. You had the usual concerns about Danks that have been there for the past 3 years or so. Turner was at best, a reclamation project. In the end, they were fortunate to come up with Gonzalez, but that was almost luck and the bottom line is they were resting on their laurels OR simply not willing to commit to spending more on the rotation coming into the season. If you want to lump Burdi and Fulmer in there with Anderson...and Collins in late 2017, you could take that approach...or you could also say there's no reason to rush Burdi and Collins and you need to see if they can develop as a starting pitcher (instead of reliever) and starting catcher (instead of DH), respectively. There's no reason to think Burdi shouldn't start the season with the big league club. He's ready. Based on DA's post from last night, I suspect the White Sox number 1 priority this offseason will be to trade Robertson. That frees up a significant amount of cash and clears the way for Burdi as the presumptive closer (not to start the season but by mid-late season). Also, I see no reason why Collins couldn't contribute to the big league club at some point late next season. He appears to be on the Schwarber plan and I'd expect him to start the season in AA with a promotion as early as June depending upon the state of the big league roster.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 08:53 PM) Well, he wasn't willing last offseason when we were essentially in the same situation as we will be heading into this offseason. With seemingly the same resources at his disposal as was available last offseason, what changes this time around where you might expect him to increase payroll to the extent necessary to acquire the quantity and quality of additions it would take to turn this lemon of a roster into a legitimate contender? I'm hopeful that a greater sense of urgency resulting from an increasingly impatient fan base will be enough for him to increase it $15-20MM higher than it was this year (roughly in line with 2011 levels). It's not saying much but they are on track for their highest season attendance since 2012 so I'm hoping that helps too.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 08:10 PM) If that's true, then he wouldn't have cut Danks, Latos and Rollins, brought up Anderson and added Shields. Of course, in the end, you can't cover catching injuries, CF and bullpen replacements very easily in the middle of a season when you have a barren minor league system. Meanwhile, lots of teams like the Cardinals, Indians, Rangers or Royals just muddle through any injuries because they have depth and talent at almost every position waiting for an opportunity. Good intentions with the shields trade but he targeted the wrong guy. At least he recognized they weren't going to be able to compete for the playoffs starting Danks every fifth day (unfortunately the same thing turned out to be true with shields).

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 07:25 PM) So it is your belief that we were not intending to compete this year? I think they intended to compete but sure didn't spend like it last offseason. I honestly believe even Hahn knew that the signings were destined for failure but he was likely given a hard cap on what he could spend. Do you think Hahn would have settled for guys like Latos, Rollins and Jackson if he was given a larger budget? That's why I have been saying that if they want to compete next year JR has to be willing to increase the payroll. They won't be able to compete otherwise.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 07:14 PM) Yes...we signed not 1 but a platoon of catchers. We signed a center fielder. Brought back Matt Albers. Do you really think we'll address those positions with more vigor next year? I would hope so if they are planning to compete. I don't consider signing 2 over the hill catchers and rapidly declining CF and SP as addressing those holes. Give me guys that aren't on a rapid decline in the prior year(s).

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 06:57 PM) But we tried to address those holes last offseason and what happened? Did we really?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 06:32 PM) Someone touched on this the other day and I have touched on it in previous weeks...so as of now Abreu is raking and Sale and Q are both pitching fairly close to what we would expect from them....and yet...WE ARE STILL NOT WINNING consistently. Who cares what things might "look" like. There is proof that even with these guys clicking, we still cannot win consistently. This simply is not working. But WHY aren't they winning consistently? Let's keep this very simple. Remove our 3-headed monster filling out the fifth starter spot (Ranaudo/Shields/Danks) and this team is 60-53. That's without even addressing the GLARING holes at catcher, center field, and middle bullpen.

I'm just surprised that OP and a few others bashing Jose earlier in this thread haven't returned since early August. Probably just a coincidence.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 04:32 PM) Abreu .298 now This offense sure looks a lot better when Jose is hitting like Jose. He has a good chance of ending with 100+ RBI once again and average over .300. He will probably fall just short of 30 homers again though. Nevertheless, very encouraging sign if they do give retooling a try for next season. Jose putting up an OPS of 900+ makes the entire lineup better.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 02:39 PM) I never suggested the Sox trade all of their vets for prospects.. I said the Sox have a golden opportunity this offseason, in a sellers market, to command prospects and established major leaguers for assets that will command more than simply lateral moves, as you are suggesting in your re-tool scenario... which players specifically then are you suggesting the Sox trade? and who are you trading them for?

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 02:09 PM) You are so far off of the rails with your argument at this point, it's getting to be almost impossible to follow you… First off, the franchise is not going to be sold.. It will be in the hands of JR until he passes on, and will be left to his heirs.. the investors are so remotely not considering selling that countless interviews have them totally in the dark as to how it would actually transpire… Forget your fantasy land Disney scenario of the Sox somehow magically re-creating 2005.. How many more years of failure is it going to take for you to be convinced that how they got their in 05', is simply ineffective at this point? The Sox have been "all in" since 2006, and except for backing into the playoffs in 08, and going out in the first round.. have absolutely nothing to show for it.. with the moving of Sale and/or Q in the offseason, the Sox have an unprecedented opportunity in a sellers market to possibly reload with established ML'ers. but also prospects who could be a part of the franchise for years to come.. Yes, nothing is guaranteed.. But the way I see the Sox don't have anything to lose at this point..especially considering they are mid market payroll, mid market revenue, still suffering the effects of a neglected farm, and an octogenarian owner, and a roster filled with talent, that if traded.. can only result in parallel moves…. But apparently you seem to be content (or maybe oblivious) to the fact that the fan base is seriously eroding, attendance at or near the bottom, rock bottom TV ratings, and an ungodly terrible record against the teams they absolutely need to be beat, to be considered a contender… we're not going to agree on this. you can believe whatever you want to believe that trading all of our vets for prospects will result in a Cubs-like turnaround. in my opinion, that is even more far-fetched than the retool and competing next year scenario I proposed.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 02:09 PM) I don't know if you've noticed, but retooling has not even come close to working out with this particular roster. And unfortunately, the retooling you've been suggesting wouldn't work either. Retooling isn't just about upgrading over the subpar players on the current roster and then claiming success. Retooling is getting players of a certain caliber that collectively can join the core and enable them to legitimately compete for a chance for the postseason. Adding Wieters, Volquez, Fowler and Moreland to this current roster does not get this team to that level. That's just the 2017 version of adding Melky, LaRoche, Robertson and Duke. you state everything so matter-of-factly. I have said that I believe that team can compete, obviously nothing is guaranteed. not sure how you know for a fact that team couldn't compete. I'm sure you took the Rangers and Indians to have the two best records in the AL this year too. since you know exactly how everything will play out, who is going to win the world series this year?

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 02:13 PM) You "retool" something that was good to begin with. Like a Navy sub with new electronics and missiles. you don't retool the Titanic. so the tigers were "good" last year? the red sox were "good" the last 3 seasons prior to this year?

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:58 PM) OK. There are two strategies that SORT OF make some sense: 1. Trade Sale and/or Quintana and the complementary parts for all the prospects you can (total rebuild) 2. Keep everyone essentially in place and try to catch lightning in a bottle again ("go for it") The one move that definitely does NOT make sense would be to trade all your complementary pieces but not Sale and/or Quintana (not even sure what this strategy would be called). That would get you exactly nowhere. So there is only one way to rebuild and that is by trading everyone? What would you call the moves the Tigers made last season or the Red Sox a couple seasons prior or the Rangers after the 2013 season? I guess they just retooled because none of those teams traded EVERYONE of value from their major league roster. I guess retooling can work out pretty well too.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:43 PM) So you want to trade everything but Sale & Quintana for a one year shot in 2019? Because Sale will be gone after that season. Why not just trade Sale? Is that one year window really worth what your forgoing in value today for Chris? If Chris keeps pitching like he has his entire career, he will have PLENTY of trade value come 2019 before he hits the open market.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:36 PM) But that's not a rebuild, that's just more retooling. And how does it help us maximize the three year window we have with Chris under control? You're punting at least the 2017 season by trading guys like Frazier, Melky, & Robertson and now have three big holes to fill before the 2018 season. If all goes well, which is unlikely for reasons listed numerous times, you have two seasons to compete before you lose Chris Sale for nothing. Does that really sound like a good plan to you? Again, this retooling nonsense has to end. Like Hahn said in the STH event, we aren't going to get better until we take a step back. More retooling is just delaying the inevitable. There are obvious risks when it comes to rebuilding, but they are far less than more half-ass retooling. Our track record over the past 10 seasons speaks for itself. Rebuilding doesn't necessarily require trading everyone of value from your current major league roster. If they unload everyone but Sale and Q, they sure as heck could afford extending Sale and Q if they wanted or they could go out and sign Manny Machado and Andrew McCutchen for true "all-in" seasons 2019 and beyond. I know that would be out of character for this franchise to sign high profile FA's but realize that there are more ways to rebuild than just tear the whole thing down to the ground until nothing is left. It is possible they would consider breaking character ahead of the new TV deal and possible sale of the franchise by landing a big star or two, I wouldn't rule it out completely especially if the rest of the payroll is already suppressed.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:10 PM) And what's that going to accomplish? Trading a bunch of guys coming off average to below average seasons with only a year left of control? How does that make us better exactly? That's just a half-ass rebuild and we'll end up losing Sale in three year with no chance of being competitive. You're so anti rebuild that you're not even making sense any more. It is possible to do a near-full rebuild by not trading Sale and Q but it would involve trading just about everyone else - Eaton, Abreu, Melky, Gonzalez, Frazier, Robertson, Lawrie. Should be able to get some really nice pieces for those guys. Sure it won't be the haul that Sale and Q would bring back but I would still expect 4 or 5 top 100 prospects that are near MLB ready (Eaton should bring back 2 by himself). Would be great to get another young high profile arm to round out that rotation. A rotation consisting of Sale, Q, Rodon, Fulmer, and Glasnow would be fun to watch even if the offense stinks while guys like Collins, Anderson, Tilson, Sanchez, Navarez, Engel and whoever else comes over via trade take their lumps. Certainly that would be one way to clear major salary ahead of the 2018-2019 FA class. Would likely clear enough payroll to be below $75MM heading into 2018-2019 free agency.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:06 AM) Make it simpler than this; ignore the wild card for a minute. Pretend it doesn't exist in your planning. Is that team, on paper, clearly better than the Indians? They'll have some people like Napoli regress yes, but that roster is still pretty loaded, they'll have money to spend after a playoff run too, they'll be looking at having Brantley back and Miller for the whole season, plus other guys farther along. Does that patched together White Sox team stand out relative to them? If not, then you're in "and if everything goes correctly we can compete for the wild card" territory, and that's not good territory to be in. Indians have followed four 90+ win seasons over the past 15 years with 85 wins or less the next season. MLB isn't NBA - nothing is guaranteed with the best team on paper. Field a competitive team and you have a chance. Also, since the advent of the second wild card, a wild card team has won the WS exactly the same number of times as the team with the best regular season record in baseball (once). Just get there and see what a rotation of Sale, Q, Rodon, and Fulmer can do. Playoffs are a crap shoot and pitching typically rules in October.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 09:16 AM) Isn't that what Dick just said Hahn said? If not this year than surely after next year ? S they still might give it a go next year . Probably will. Dick said the plan is to start the rebuild this offseason

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 08:46 AM) http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/chicago-white-sox/yearly/payroll/ This is where the problems start....just with built in salary escalators, not even considering arbitration, they're up another $10 million. If you didn't have Robertson and Shields on the roster, it might have been possible...at least theoretically. That's not accounting for the likes of Miguel Gonzalez and Lawrie, either. I see ~$8MM in salary escalators and who knows how much in arb but as I said those can be partially offset by losing guys like Latos ($3MM), Turner ($1.5MM), Garcia ($2.1MM), Albers ($2MM), and with the emergence of Saladino, Lawrie and his $4.1MM salary look to be a good trade candidate for a young RP with Carlos Sanchez filling the utility IF role. I'd fill the 4th and 5th OF spots with a combination of Tilson, May, league min vets.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 07:21 AM) Boras is going to get $10 million for Wieters from SOMEONE. $15 million for Fowler for one year. $7 million for Volquez. $8 million for Moreland. Wieters replaces the Avila/Navarro combo. $10MM vs $6.5MM or $3.5MM increase. Fowler is not getting $15MM AAV. I could see $10-12MM AAV over 3 or 4 years. Let's say $12MM vs $5MM they paid AJ this year or $7MM increase. Even if Volquez gets $7MM his salary combined with Shields and Fulmer amounts to $18MM or $2MM less than what they paid Shields and Danks this year. Moreland isn't getting $8MM AAV unless maybe it's only a one year deal. Even then, consider Pedro Alvarez as a decent comp from last season and he got 1/$5.75MM last offseason. I think Moreland gets $6MM AAV over 3 years vs ~$1MM they spent for DH this year. Add it all up and that's an approx. $13.5MM increase. I realize other players are due a raise because of arbitration, etc. but still that only bumps total payroll up $15-20MM from this season, no where near $40MM. I would expect some of those increases to be offset by losing guys like Turner, Latos and Avi and not buying out guys like Albers.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 07:00 AM) Where are they going to get the money to add roughly $40 million in payroll for next year? How do you figure that adds $40MM to payroll?

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 11:29 PM) Who cares about any of this? We need to rebuild now because we're unable to build around our core assets before their value is completely gone. It doesn't matter if fans are miserable for the next few years or if attendance drops. All that matters is building a major league core and minor league pipeline that can lead to sustainable success. Sucks we're at this point and I don't look forward to the next few years of White Sox baseball, but it's the only option for us at this time. You would think all of our core assets are gone after next season with the way some people talk. They are all locked up thru 2019 at a minimum. Here's the other thing - the original core of Eaton, Sale, Q, and Abreu is growing as we speak by adding guys like Rodon and Anderson and hopefully in the near future Fulmer, Burdi, Collins, and Hansen. Can always retool by not only signing FA but also by trading expiring contracts like Melky, Robertson, Gonzalez, and Frazier too if they don't fit into the plan thru 2019. Sure they won't get the haul of a Sale or Q but did anyone think the Cubs would get the type of hail they got for expiring contracts Feldman or Shark/Hammel?