JUSTgottaBELIEVE

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 11:29 PM) Who cares about any of this? We need to rebuild now because we're unable to build around our core assets before their value is completely gone. It doesn't matter if fans are miserable for the next few years or if attendance drops. All that matters is building a major league core and minor league pipeline that can lead to sustainable success. Sucks we're at this point and I don't look forward to the next few years of White Sox baseball, but it's the only option for us at this time. You would think all of our core assets are gone after next season with the way some people talk. They are all locked up thru 2019 at a minimum. Here's the other thing - the original core of Eaton, Sale, Q, and Abreu is growing as we speak by adding guys like Rodon and Anderson and hopefully in the near future Fulmer, Burdi, Collins, and Hansen. Can always retool by not only signing FA but also by trading expiring contracts like Melky, Robertson, Gonzalez, and Frazier too if they don't fit into the plan thru 2019. Sure they won't get the haul of a Sale or Q but did anyone think the Cubs would get the type of hail they got for expiring contracts Feldman or Shark/Hammel?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 12:41 AM) You're really betting a LOT on Wieters' quite questionable health history. And you're only going to get him to Chicago on a one-year deal, with the contracts of Melky and Frazier expiring next year, they're not going to commit to anything beyond 2017 in terms of veteran acquisitions, IMO. Fowler had an opportunity to play for the White Sox and Orioles last year, and chose the Cubs...he would be a nice get, but you can't just assume the same first half he had in 2016. He's actually tailed off quite a bit the second half of the season, and he's been far from a "sure thing" statistically (career-wise) until he doffed a Cubs' jersey. Next, there's at least a 50/50 chance Volquez ends up staying with the Royals, they control his rights for 2017 until they buy him out. Until he joined the Pirates/Royals, he was one of those talented enigmas like Puig that nobody knew what to do with and everyone was afraid of signing and also just as equally afraid of not signing him because of "potential/ability/upside." He does have a lot of wear and tear on his arm...it wouldn't be a shocker at all to see him as a 4.75-5.25 ERA pitcher with the White Sox (and yes, KC has been playing as the third best stadium offensively, duly noted). The main question would be whether he could give you enough innings to protect that bullpen. (Basically,the same exact role another former Royal was supposed to fill). Moreland's going to make more money than Morneau because of his relative youth (31), but anything is possible there offensively...he's just as likely to put up a 725-750 OPS as an 850. Just wonder the effect when you strip away some of the protection he gets in that Texas line-up. He would be expected to be the 4th or 5th best hitter for the White Sox, not a bottom of the order guy you just throw in there at the 7 spot. It's also far from clear whether Burdi will be in the big league bullpen (with Robertson traded) or starting in Winston-Salem or Birmingham instead. 1. Wieters will end this season with more than 400 PA and had nearly 300 last season. Every player comes with an injury risk but he appears to be past his Tommy John at this point. 2. In the past 6 seasons Fowler's lowest WAR has been 1.5 in his one season with the Astros. Even if he does what he did with the Astros that's still a big upgrade from Jackson/Schuck. 3. I still think the Royals cut Volquez lose but even if they don't it shouldn't be that hard to find someone to fill the #5 SP role (Fulmer?). Even an ERA in the 4.75-5.25 range as you suggest is a massive upgrade from what this team has gotten this season from that spot. The combined ERA of Danks/Shields/Ranaudo is just below 8! 4. Moreland is a career 765 OPS. Even if he dips to 725-750 that's still an upgrade over the combined numbers put up this season by Avi/Sands/Morneau. Also, I have him slotted in the 6 hole behind Fowler, Eaton, Abreu, Frazier, and Melky. He typically bats 6 or 7 for the AL best Texas Rangers.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 09:13 PM) Give the fans credit, complaining or non complaining, for at least populating boards like this and showing some interest. It's been a brutal run of baseball, and the complainers could very well have turned into who-gives-a-damners Eh, I think some fans like to complain for the sake of complaining and I'm not sure that's better than the who-gives-a-damners. Many Sox fans have stated that they have no interest in attending games with the current state of the team so I would expect that will turn around if they get the full rebuild they so desperately desire. I'll be curious to see what the attendance figures show, numbers don't lie...Wouldn't be shocked to see them dip below 20k/game if they roll out a couple consecutive seasons of 90+ losses after this year.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 08:37 PM) They are certainly not going to miss what's resulted from the retooling approach of recent years. It's been a brutal several years lately to be a White Sox fan. Retooling led to the 2005 WS title. No one is happy with this team since 2012 but we will see what a full rebuild brings. I will just have zero patience for those complaining about terrible teams over the next few years if they decide to go the full rebuild route. And yes, they will be terrible. Looking at a rotation along the lines of Rodon, Fulmer, Shields, Danish, and Ranaudo over the next two years if they deal Sale and Q and don't get a major league ready SP in return. Going to be some really bad baseball on the South side. You think this is bad, try less than 70 wins bad over the next couple seasons. Hopefully they can complete the rebuild in less time than it has taken the Twins...

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 07:44 PM) Hahn himself at the deadline said that an offseason moving of players made more sense mainly cause teams are less likely to move established major leaguers at the deadline, that are in contention So if things don't work out again in 2017, push the rebuilding back another year, to 2018 The Sox are in a unique position this offseason, in a sellers market...the franchise has never been in this strong of a position to set the franchise up for years to come. And maybe not as many down years as you would think. Quite possibility the FO might just be better at this major overhaul thing. As has been mentioned, the sheer numbers of a haul they can accomplish could very well overshadow their scouting and talent evaluation shortcomings Time will tell. I'm just looking forward to very few complaining on these boards once they do move forward with the rebuild. I'm not sure what some people are going to do if they can't complain any more.

I'm gonna be so pissed if a Sale or Q trade is centered around Jackie freakin Bradley

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 07:00 PM) He said it without saying it. I am 100% certain. Mentioned pivot poins. Said there was one in 2007 and after 2012 and they got those wrong. Said if they did not rebuild after this year, with their contract situations, would have to after next. It I S going to happen. I was hoping they'd give it one more crack before starting the rebuild but I guess everyone here gets what they want now. Should see a surge in attendance the next few years since this is what everyone wants to see. Yippee another 5 years of sub .500 baseball

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 06:13 PM) That's still not going to be near enough. Cleveland and Detroit are #3 & 4, respectively, in league offense this season, while the Sox remain towards the bottom at #12. You are adding Wieters as an upgrade at catcher. Ok, but his sparkling .683 OPS isn't going to put much of a dent in reducing that gap between the Sox and their two main division rivals on offense. Who else are you bringing in that will close that gap and help stifle those who believe a rebuild is in order? Moreland? Still coming up a bit short there, I'm afraid. Similarly, with Cleveland having superior pitching overall to that of the Sox, and Detroit arguably a notch or two higher, how does Volquez and his 1.47 WHIP improve our chances to compete with those two teams? Remember, it's not about upgrading from the garbage we saw this year. It's about upgrading to a point that puts us in a position to win the division and/or compete for a wildcard. I'm afraid the addition of Volquez and return of Petricka and Putnam doesn't get us close to those other two teams, either. In other words, you are far overrating the current roster, and underestimating the extent to which the quantity and quality of upgrades to the team would need to be for the Sox to compete for the postseason next year. See post #270 in this thread Also much of the upgrade at catcher with Wieters is primarily due to his defense not his offense as you continue to suggest.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 05:48 PM) Players that can, according to your standard, magically transform the Sox into "a team that can absolutely compete for a play off spot" And I don't mean jumping over 5 or 6 teams and 5 or 6 back of WC 2 for the duration of the year. So you think replacing Navarro/Avila with Wieters, Schuck with Fowler, Shields/Danks/Ranuado with Volquez, Avi/Morneau with Moreland, and Albers/Kahnle/Ynoa with Burdi/Putnam/Petricka will have little to no impact on the number of wins next season? That's an interesting thought. I happen to think that those additions could result in as many as 10 additional wins and a total in the upper 80s, which absolutely positions them to be a playoff contender. Sure I will admit that a lot has to go right but if it doesn't then tear it down in July and sell off anything of value not in the mid-long term plan. I feel it's a very prudent approach.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 04:42 PM) Matt Latos made a huge impact for four starts... I'd be curious to see what his definition is. Did Indians fans think adding Napoli (age 34) and Davis (age 35) would add "anything of impact" coming into this season? Did Rangers fans think Ian Desmomd (the guy that no one else wanted) would have this type of impact (ie. outproducing Gordon, Upton, and Cespedes)?

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 04:11 PM) well, let's put it this way.. the kind of payroll that is required to acquire anyone of any impact…. not impossible but unlikely.. What's your definition of "anyone of any impact"?

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 03:39 PM) The biggest hole of all in your argument, dude….is that JR is gonna all of sudden magically add payroll.. not gonna happen... How do you know this?

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 02:49 PM) The "throw anything against the wall and hope it'll stick" approach? Sure, it sounds familiar. It's been happening for quite some time with Williams and Hahn at the helm. Great way to build a team capable of sustainable winning, eh? I did not agree with signing Rollins, Latos, and Avila/Navarro this past offseason. Would have much preferred signing Desmond and Fowler to 3 year deals and someone like Fister to a 1 or 2 year deal while sticking with Flowers for another year once Wieters accepted the QO. I would still give Fowler a 3 year contract this offseason but it's even harder now because they likely won't have a protected 1st pick or a comp pick for losing shark. I think that's where the front office blew it by not truly going all in last offseason. I'd still like to see them go for it this offseason by signing the before mentioned vets that have shown the ability to succeed in the AL and are still producing this year at a much higher level than our current options at C, CF, #5 SP, etc. Still have to be strategic in these signings can't just willy nilly sign whoever is left at the end of the offseason. But again this is tied to payroll constraints so JR needs to open the checkbook a bit wider than he did last offseason if wants the "all in" approach.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 12:56 PM) They did do a good job at the rebuild both times they did it during the times you referenced, and to use Reinsdorf speak, they got from Point A to Point B. Where they came up short was getting to Point C, but that's not what we are talking about here. We are not at Point B right now, so what I'd personally like to see is the effort to do the Point A to Point B exercise again, and then deal with getting to Point C when the time comes. Right now, I really don't know at what point this team is at all. Seems stuck somewhere in the middle, quite honestly. And still the only baseball championship that either side of town has witnessed during our lifetime is the one following an offseason of patching obvious holes at catcher, second base, right field, fifth starter, and bullpen with mid-tier free agents and trades. Sound familiar? I think this whole discussion goes back to how far away one thinks this roster is from being a contender. I happen to think filling the obvious holes in the 25-man roster with productive players will result in a competitive team. As much as people keep saying it, last offseason was not "all in." If anything, that was a "stand pat" approach. What was their most expensive signing? Austin Jackson for 1 year at $5MM? I'm advocating signing 4 guys that exceed that type of contract but also don't reach the level of a Cespedes or Encarnacion - more in line with the 2014/2015 offseason approach because I believe the Sox have less holes to fill now than they did in 2014.

and for those thinking mid-tier free agent signings never work out just take a look at the Indians this year. They aren't nearly as good without the free agent signings of Rajai Davis and Mike Napoli.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 11:38 AM) The irony here is that you are willing to trust this front office with a job that they have a poor established track record on, i.e., retooling, but are unwilling to trust them with a job like rebuilding for which we actually don't know how good they'd do at such a thing. It's not ironic at all. Would you agree that missing on the prospects involved in a Sale/Q package is much more detrimental to the long term future of the franchise than missing on a 2-year FA deal for someone like Moreland or Volquez? In one case, you no longer have Sale/Q and a bunch of crappy prospects/major leaguers. In the other case, you still have Sale/Q and a bunch o crappy prospects/major leaguers. If you are going the total rebuild option you better be damn sure you have the best front office and scouts in place to make those decisions - do you think we do? It's ironic that anyone thinking a front office that has failed with previous trades and FA acquisitions will excel in a total rebuild. That makes no sense to me. Sign a few mid-tier free agents this offseason, a new manager, and see if it comes together. If it's still broken come mid-late June then there better be a clean out of the front office and let the new front office start the rebuild process in late July by unloading Melky, Frazier, Gonzalez, and Robertson. They can even wait until the following offseason to trade Sale and Q if they don't get blown away at the deadline. Those guys are under team control thru 2019 for goodness sake.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 09:40 AM) Now you're all over the place. You don't trust the front office, but yet you're on board with them retooling with basically the same approach as has been exhibited over multiple seasons. Mix and match a bunch of middling, serviceable players. What? Retooling with guys like Wieters, Moreland, Volquez is not rocket science. These guys are known commodities and have shown they can succeed in the AL. They are also guys that will not require excessive long term, high dollar commitments that can make or break the future of the franchise. Trading all of our vets for a bunch of prospects is something else altogether. If we are going that route, I'd prefer to do it with a different front office. If you screw that up you really can break the franchise much worse than it is currently broken. How well has the rebuild worked for the twins since 2010? They are still 2-3 years away from fielding a competitive team in the best case scenario, which is still no guarantee. Not all can't miss prospects turn out to be stars - just ask the twins about their one time #1 overall prospect in baseball Byron Buxton. MAYBE he will be an all star by the team he reaches free agency but MAYBE he will be a fourth outfielder too.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 09:19 AM) These aren't the kind of upgrades that will transform this current team into a contender. What you are proposing is same church, different pew from what's been happening through the retooling efforts of recent years, and which would inevitably result next year in yet another year of meaningless, boring baseball on the South Side. Time for a different approach. That's your opinion. Mine is that roster can be competitive. If not, unload at next year's deadline. I'm willing to wait the first 4 months of next season to let it play out and clearly the front office is as well.

Why do people assume a total rebuild will guarantee a higher level of organizational talent? Also if the Sox are going in that direction I'd much prefer to have a different front office pulling those strings. I'm sorry but when Jackie Bradley Jr is reportedly the centerpiece of a Sale trade I don't know how that improves the organization. Sure we don't know what other 3 or 4 prospects were requested but if they were guys like Devers/Kopech/Swihart I don't see how that dramatically improves the major league club now or in the future.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 07:17 AM) So Wieters and his .683 OPS, Volquez with his 1.47 WHIP, and some magical 3-4 game improvement by the existing cast in the bullpen will be what turns this 76 win team into an 86 win team? Ok, if that's the direction you'd like the team to go in. Meanwhile, some of the rest of us prefer a cease-and-desist on launching another failed retooling exercise and instead move in the direction of trying to successfully execute a full rebuild. It's time. Wieters would be a significant upgrade over Navarro and Volquez would be a significant upgrade over Danks/Shields/Ranaudo. Did I ever say they are all star caliber? No, well I suppose Wieters did make it this year due to a strong first half. I'm not asking for all star performance out of those guys but even serviceable would be a vast improvement over the black holes we have had at those two spots this season. And yes, with the addition of Burdi, Putnam, Petricka, and possibly one other arm via trade or free agency I expect the bullpen to be much better next year. It also helps when your fifth starter doesn't completely destroy your bullpen every 5 days, this aspect cannot be understated.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 10:58 PM) Fowler would be a legit upgrade in CF, but Moreland would only be a small one at DH/1B and Wieters doesn't seem to be much of an upgrade at all at C. That's not nearly enough improvement to make us serious contenders and will cost us a 1st round pick to boot. Not to be a dick, but that's a half-ass offseason plan if I've ever seen one, which is exactly what we need to avoid. Either go big or blow this s*** up. Can't keep being stuck in the middle. Considering Dionner Navarro and his negative WAR was our starting catcher for most of the year, Wieters would represent a significant upgrade. Also, Fulmer/Volquez should represent a HUGE upgrade at fifth starter. Consider the fact that the White Sox are 7-19 in games started by Shields, Danks, and Ranaudo (with an ERA around 8). For the sake of discussion I'm going to call that three headed monster the "fifth starter." Wouldn't even need a stud filling that spot but league average and this team is 5 or 6 wins better. I also expect the bullpen to be much better next year which I think can account for another 3-4 wins. Really not asking for much here and that's a ~10 win improvement if everything else stays the same.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 10:02 PM) Teams also won't deal major leaguers at the deadline. Generally that's true but not always. Regardless, I think most here are in favor of dealing major league talent for prospects, which will still be an option come July.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 07:43 PM) Your hypothesis has more holes than a 76-77 throwback jersey after Chris Sale got his hands on it With a limited payroll, weak FA buyers class upcoming, and not a lot of real strong prospects,to get anything of serious value ..what voodoo is the Sox FO going to perform by holding on to anything of real value, and still yet catapult themselves to an AL Central contender by opening day 2017? How do you see them acquiring these 3 or 4 acquisitions you speak of? With every passing opening day, you are closer to the Crown Jewels of the Franchise. Sale and Quintana ..being closer to the day they will no longer be cost controlled. Fowler - CF Eaton - RF Abreu - 1B Frazier - 3B Melky - LF Moreland or Alvarez (whoever is cheaper) - DH Wieters - C Lawrie/Saladino - 2B Anderson - SS Sale, Q, Rodon, Gonzalez, Fulmer/Volquez That team should absolutely compete for a playoff spot next year IMO. Wouldn't take a drastic payroll increase either.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 08:28 PM) Not sure you read his post. His theory is to wait until next July and if the team is still struggling blow it up. He thinks the trade pieces will be worth more next July. Meanwhile go out this winter and get a C, CF, 5th starter and DH. I asked how will you acquire the first two w/o trading since it didn't work last winter. I also don't agree guys like Eaton, Frazier and Melky will be more valuable next July than they will be this off-season. Melky is having a better than career year for example. Teams tend to get more desperate at the deadline and many teams actually prefer guys like Cabrera and Frazier on expiring contracts since they aren't committed beyond that season. That's why I think those guys may actually be more valuable next July. It's not like Melky, Robertson, Frazier are having career years. I already said I'd sign Wieters to fill starting catcher and Fowler to fill CF. If the Sox end up with an unprotected first round pick and Fowler receives a QO I may be more inclined to sign Reddick rather than Fowler. Both would provide a nice upgrade in the outfield. I prefer Fowler though because of his ability to play CF. Hopefully the Sox end up moving up a slot from their current position at #11 to #10.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 02:32 PM) I guess the eight year playoff drought doesn't bother you. And obviously you aren't willing to wait another 4 months of next season to start the rebuild. I am. I'd like to see it played out before unloading all of our major league pieces of value. Clearly many here think the White Sox have no chance to compete for a playoff spot next year with 3 or 4 acquisitions this offseason but I do. I don't think they are as far away as many here are portraying. There is so much parity in the AL and in the Central even with the way the Indians are playing that I believe plugging the gaping holes in this 25 man roster will result in a much better and more balanced team. It wouldn't take a star player to get much more production out of C, DH, CF, and 5th starter. Bullpens are funny too - add Burdi, return Putnam and Petricka, and pick up another arm and that will look like a completely revamped pen. Again, if they are out of it next July, sell the pieces then when they are arguably even more valuable than during the offseason.