JUSTgottaBELIEVE

QUOTE(FlaCWS @ Apr 7, 2007 -> 10:26 AM) I was one of the few who thought re-signing Contreras was a mistake. I realize it's easy to bring it up now, after that disastrous first start, but if you think about it, the extension was based on a great 2nd half of '05 and 1st half of '06. Other than those two half-seasons, Contreras hasn't done much at all in the majors. I obviously hope I'm wrong on this, but I think we may see some more brief stretches of greatness, but never again will we see the consistency that he showed at the end of '05 and early last year. I do think he's done, and I wish the money we gave him (and Vazquez) was used to extend Buerhle and Garland instead. i think alot of people forget that contreras was great in his first season with the yankees http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5373 people only seem to remember the next year when boston lit him up time and time again which forced steinbrenner to want to rid himself of the cuban when he was then traded to the white sox halfway thru that second season. take out the 2004 season and he has actually had a solid career up to this point 48-28 4.37 ERA career numbers however, that still doesnt answer the question if he is done or not because i think only he knows the answer to that question and maybe guys like coop and ozzie have a good idea too

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Apr 6, 2007 -> 12:44 PM) Ok OK, please dont go down the path of comparing Rocco to one of the best ever, please. just cut that convo off and start again. thank you

QUOTE(BearSox @ Apr 6, 2007 -> 12:15 PM) Did I say Baldelli has the power to hit 46 homers and ability to hit .382??? NO! I said that they play similar games. Their swings are similar, and they play(ed?) a similar CF. Like I said, Baldelli doesn't have the talent of Dimaggio, but their games are similar! no, i realize you did say that he is a lesser version of joe D but i still disagree that they are comparable tools wise. joe D had much more power and was a much better contact hitter than baldelli (joe struck out 39 times as a rookie in 637 AB, while baldelli struck out 128 times in 637 AB as a rookie) so i wouldnt even say their swings are similar at all. i guess that ends that discussion

QUOTE(BearSox @ Apr 6, 2007 -> 12:04 PM) actually, this is a common comparrison. Not only do they look alike and are both from Italian decent, they both play a similar type of game. Of course Baldelli is no where near the talent of Dimaggio, but there are similarities in their play. once you get past the same position, same ethnic descent thing i really dont see a whole lot of similarities. i didn't realize baldelli has the power to hit 46 homers in a season or the ability to hit .382 for a whole year. maybe im missing something?

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Apr 5, 2007 -> 11:17 PM) Baldelli might be oft injured but he's still only 25, has a very affordable contract and has all the same tools as Joe D. In other words, if they choose to trade him they're going to get a valuable piece to add to their rotation. Plus the whole Sean Tracey incident in AAA, Dukes is a crazy son of a b****. did you really just compare baldelli's tools to joey D? wow

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 05:57 PM) Just off the top of my head, what about what he did with Thronton? like i said yesterday im not quite ready to anoint thornton as a huge success until he has another good year this year. masset looked awesome though and thats great to see he should be a huge bonus to this bullpen.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 5, 2007 -> 12:06 PM) There's a big difference between the consistency of a long-ball or slap-happy offense. A long-ball offense might put up 12 runs one day and spread out 4 hits over the next 2 games. A slap-happy offense is less likely to do that. They will also be better at driving in crucial runs one or two at a time and taking advantage of opportunities. A long-ball club is just going to try and pull everything into the stands and hope that someone managed to get on base ahead of them. The slap-happy offense also won't get mowed down by bad pitchers who just go low-and-away the entire game. that is probably one of the most overrated theories in the game of baseball. just for kicks i went back and compared the twins "slap happy" offense of 2006 and the "long ball" offense of the chicago white sox in 2006. For a quick and dirty evaluation of consistency with a given offense i chose 5 runs as a benchmark. every game that the white sox and twins scored 5 runs or more last year i kept a tally. white sox-85 twins-77 so...the white sox scored 5 or more runs in 52.5% of their games while the twins scored 5 or more runs in 47.5% of their games and AGAIN why did the twins win the division and the white sox finish third? PITCHING and DEFENSE, the two most important aspects of the game of baseball QUOTE(LVSoxFan @ Apr 5, 2007 -> 12:12 PM) Yes there is a HUGE difference between spreading hits around the lineup and relying on three guys to jack one to save our asses. REMEMBER? This is how we pretty much played first half of 2005. Sure we hit tons of homers but we were not RELIANT on them for offense. If somebody pulls the stats for '04 or second half last year you can see what percentage of our runs came from homers... and that's not what we want. Sure a run is a run, but it's the difference between being a piranha or living on feast-or-famine, which I never want to go back to. i bet the percentage of runs scored off homers last year was very comparable to the percentage of runs scored off homers in 2005. on top of that we scored alot MORE runs last year compared to 2005. and once again, what was the difference between those two teams?

QUOTE(LVSoxFan @ Apr 5, 2007 -> 11:52 AM) You win the thread. You're exactly right about the offense. And yes, Cleveland beat our asses by playing like... the 2005 Chicago White Sox. come on guys does it really matter how you score the runs? whether its via long ball or slap-happy twins style 7 runs is 7 runs. i agree that the appraoch and lack of exectution at the end of the game was poor from the offensive standpoint but, really, how many times can we expect the offense to cover for crappy pitching? i mean the offense puts us up 3-0 in the first and the next inning we are already down 4-3. then the offense puts us up 7-5 and in a matter of a couple innings we are losing again. at some point in the game the pitching needs to get it done and hold a damn lead. and anybody that thinks the twins offense is a bunch of slap hitting singles and doubles hitters better think again. they have guys that can drive the heck out of the ball and guys like morneau, hunter, and cuddyer come to mind immediately. heck, i think mauer is going to start putting up some decent power numbers too as he gains more experience. i hate the twins as much as any other sox fan, but i respect the hell out of them at the same time

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Apr 5, 2007 -> 10:17 AM) yeah after a 0-2 start he will be fired. Probably in a day or two. You just can't go 0-2. Not in a sport with such a short season. i wish people would actually read the thread before they make comments like these. this whole thread is based off speculation and the assumption that the pitching staff continues on its recent performance (which includes the second half of last year, not just 2 games). it was never stated that he WILL be fired, big difference.

TEAM A 79-31 3.21 ERA 7-6 4.15 ERA 80-76 4.84 ERA 42-32 4.35 ERA 80-96 4.89 ERA TEAM B 97-66 3.83 ERA 82-68 4.44 ERA 48-28 4.37 ERA 100-105 4.34 ERA 0-0 -- ERA i have listed the starting staffs for two teams above and the career numbers of each member of the staff. team a certainly has a more dominant #1 starter but overall team b seems to have a deeper rotation based on these numbers with the possible expception of the unknown at the #5 starter since he is a rookie. as you have probably already guessed team a is the twins and team b is the sox. you cant tell me on paper that the sox don't have talent and the potential to be a very good starting rotation still. the numbers tell me they can. now all things considered if i had to pick between those staffs based solely on these numbers its a toss-up. so if you are telling me that the twins starting staff outperforms the sox starting staff by a whole run this year then there is certainly something wrong

2000- 4.66 ERA 2001- 4.55 ERA 2002- 4.53 ERA average ERA of 4.58 pre-coop 2003- 4.17 ERA 2004- 4.91 ERA 2005- 3.61 ERA 2006- 4.61 ERA in his first 4 full seasons with the sox cooper has compiled an average ERA of 4.33, which certainly is an improvement over the 3 years prior to his arrival but not nearly as great as alot of people on here seem to think im afraid. good thing for 2005 otherwise he would be right on course with the previous 3 years. twins win 7-2 what else is new they pick up washed-up ramon ortiz and all of a sudden he is a solid #3? sure don't hear about rick anderson complaining about lack of pitching talent even after losing both radke and liriano...just saying

QUOTE(knightni @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 08:32 PM) Yeah. I guess he just stopped BELIEVING. yea im actually quite the optimist generally but its awfully hard to be optomistic when you see whats going on with our pitching, even you have to admit that QUOTE(Jimbo @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 08:30 PM) Im telling you we need like a private soxtalk forum for the approved posters. These new guys are such crap. and why would you go there?

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 08:05 PM) If I were the hitting coach of the Yankees, they'd score 900 runs this year. Seriously. And if they had the greatest pitching coach in the history of the universe, it'd be a miracle if their team ERA was under 4.00. Talent means so much more in baseball than coaching, and right now, the White Sox rotation is just flat out not that talented and they've faced a very talented offense that has looked very good. In other words, I don't think you understand what you are arguing. how can you say they arent talented? how did they go from a consesus top pitching staff pre-2006 season talent-wise to where they arent even talented anymore? i know they lost freddy but you cant tell me thats the difference. they got crappy because both mark buehrle and jose contreras have fallen apart since post-all star break last season, which exactly proves my initial statement

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 07:45 PM) Our offense then was tits then in 04 because if you look at our overall numbers we scored a lot of runs, and hit a lot of homers. But then again, we got rid of 3 of our offensive punch because we were sick and tired of scoring 12 runs in one game and then getting 2 hit for the next few. We had a chance to score a lot more runs today, hitting a home run is great and all. But to me hitting the ball for a single to drive in the tying or winning runs is just as important. When we fail to score because we give away outs, or more imporantly strike out. We had 8 ks against a bunch of guys who dont strikeout people. i agree to an extent but any time you score 7 runs you should win 90-95% of those games. how many games do the twins lose when they score 7 runs? just saying

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 07:37 PM) If the Sox are scoring 6 runs per game because Jim Thome, Paul Konerko, and Jermaine Dye are unstoppable, like last year...but then the guys we need to create a more balanced attack, i.e. Anderson, Erstad, Uribe, Podsednik, Pierzynski wind up struggling with the bats...that says something. yes that would be a problem but so far this season anderson is 1-1, erstad is 3-6, uribe is 2-7, pods is 0-4 and pierzynski is 2-7 (8-25 combined) so that hasn't been a problem through the first two losses and you cant tell me coop doesnt have anything to work with. that starting staff still is fully capable of being an above average staff talent-wise and the bullpen has potentially dominant stuff

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 07:32 PM) Which one of them has more to work with? this isnt a question of who has more to work with, it's a matter of results. and if the sox are scoring 6 runs a game while allowing a 5.7 team ERA coop will be in trouble and walker wont

QUOTE(Wanne @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 07:14 PM) Walker goes WAAAAAY before Coop goes. how does walker go before coop if our offense scores 6 runs a game?

im not saying that i am advocating he gets fired i am just saying it is a real possibility if things continue the way they are right now and if anything else he needs to change his approach and light a fire under these guys a##es. he cant continue to tell me javy pitched well when he goes 6 innings and allows 5 runs like he did much of last year when i heard him talking on the radio. he needs these guys to man up and accept some responsibility for poor performances. and that is an attitude adjustment, something a coach can have an impact on.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 06:44 PM) so why would you fire a good coach then? i dont know ask the white sox why they fired tony larussa

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 06:35 PM) I think that if he spent less time calling the Mike North Morning show, and more time teaching our pitchers some things, we would be in better shape. well if you have heard him on the north show the second half of last year or this year you notice a much different man than the one from 2005 and the first half of 06. you can tell he snaps much more quickly and is actually very defensive to most things north says (surprise, surprise). either way this shows me that he too has some worries in his own mind if nothing else QUOTE(Soxfest @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 06:38 PM) That is wrong.....................Fire Coop he would have a job in 15 seconds. Lay off Coop! it wouldnt be the first time a good coach/manager has been fired and it won't be the last.

QUOTE(zenryan @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 06:19 PM) people are acting as if this has only been a 2 game problem. guess no one remembers 2006 no i mentioned that previously. thats what it is so concerning there is a trend developing and its seeming to get worse before it gets better QUOTE(Wanne @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 06:27 PM) That's ridiculous. Not like Coop wouldn't be snatched up in all of 3.5 seconds. Can Coop hold everybody's hand for offseason routines to see if they're are in 100% shape? Can Coop get into guys heads and control their mental states? Does Coop actually make the crappy pitches? Please...get a grip. i didn't say that i believe it is all his fault because i agree that a large degree of the blame falls on the players. but lets put it this way he isnt helping his own cause and coaches are judged based on the performance of their players, how else can you evaluate a coach? right or wrong, if things continue to go poorly for this staff cooper WILL take a large amount of blame which could very well result in his release

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 05:57 PM) Just off the top of my head, what about what he did with Thronton? what did he do with thornton? the guy did have one good season, i will give him that. but until he strings two or three good seasons together i wouldnt call him a huge success. if he reverts to 2006 neal cotts form this season what good is he? QUOTE(iamshack @ Apr 4, 2007 -> 05:58 PM) Cooper never deserved all the credit he got for the staff being great in 05', and doesn't deserve as much of the blame as some would like to place on him now, but certainly, he is nowhere near having his job in jeopardy at this point, and wouldn't even if the staff were to struggle into June. This is a knee-jerk reaction. i have to disagree, right or wrong, his job will be in jeopardy if the sox pitching staff is in the bottom 3 of the AL come june

sorry just a little fired up i mean this is just pathetic my confidence in this staff is less than that of a staff like the orioles right now

This guy went from savior to now being on the verge of having his job in jeporady in a matter of a year and a half. Following the 2005 season his name was one of the hottest out there as far as pitching coaches are concerned. I can even recall hearing rumors that the Yankees were trying to get him. Well, last year he deserved some slack because the team was coming off a championship but this year I think there will be very little slack and if this pitching staff continues to struggle into the month of May and June I wouldn't be surprised to see Coop let go. It is hard to fathom a pitching staff that was so solid in '05 look so mediocre last year and potentially BAD this year. What happened? And again not all the blame can be placed on the pitching coach because the players still have to perform but it's never a good sign when your players are performing worse and worse each time out and no longer progressing

so nobody has answered the initial question, does anybody know?