kwolf68

Thrilling stuff. In reality, the meetings did NOT go the Sox way. -Poor value for Santos. -2 and 3 are pure conjecture and hopes -Four was set in stone when we put unmovable dead weight on the roster. Mark was not THAT much overpaid. Had we not overpaid UNDESERVING duds on our team already then we could have brought him back to help lead the staff The winter meetings went our way? Can't wait for the encore.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 06:18 PM) Been aware of being a Sox fan since 1964 and Mark Buehrle had the best 10+ year run of any Sox pitcher during my fandom. Great talent (fastball velocity is just one tool); great command of all of the little things a pitcher can do to control a game; great competitor; great durability and dependability; great public ambassador for his team; and, by all accounts, great teammate. And what a great body of work: year after year of 30 starts and 200 IP; two no hitters (one a perfect game); feared pick-off artist who shut-down running games; 3X Gold Glover with some incredible highlight reel plays to his credit; 4X All Star; and, of course, World Series Champion, with a win AND a save. It's unfortunate that some very poor management choices made it impossible for the Sox to pay good old #56 anywhere close to market value on what's likely to be his last big contract. Pity. Like many, knowing that these poor management choices (and poorly performing players) led to an impossibility of keeping our own as one of those rare one-team players, can't help but stick in our proverbial craw in the coming years. If you ever happen to read this thread Mark -- thanks for playing the game we all love in the way most of us imagine that we would play it, but probably less than one in a hundred pros ever really pull-off. It's been a privilege having you as my favorite pitcher on my favorite team. I can't say that I'll root for the Marlins because I've grown to detest Ozzie as a manager, but I'll definitely root for you to take no prisoners in the N.L. -- perhaps an ERA title, another GG or two, how about another no hitter, and, while we're at it, maybe HR #2. Good luck #56! And thank you!!! Could not have said this any better.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 05:07 PM) Oh god. Especially after this Ozzie quote: "that means we're showing people they want to play for us, for me." It's all about playing for you Ozzie, nothing to do with the money at all. Glad to see Ozzie still has his ego in check.

Great player, class guy, wore the colors with honor. Will be missed. Hatred for Rios/Dunn/Peavy likely to reach higher levels as it sinks in the that the face of this franchise and leader of the staff is now pitching elsewhere.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 05:00 PM) LOVE that f***ing guy. So sorry to see him leave. That's life. Glad we have so much invested in the likes of Rios and Dunn to even enter into the conversation of re-signing the leader on the staff. Now I have another reason to root for the Marlins. Agree with this except rooting for the Marlins. I will root for Mark, but that's as far as it goes.

I think Morel is certainly a good candidate for third baseman of the future. His glove is already high level and all his numbers throughout his minor league career project to being a very solid prospect. Why are we ready to dump a young guy after 1 year? He showed improvement as last season went on. Further evidence that he is on the right track. Morel has a career .300 BA over his minor league career with his last year in Car being .320. He has above average plate discipline and above average speed (25 steals one year). His power numbers may not project as much as you'd want a corner fielder, but with improvement I think he could reach 15-20 homer level...if he is hitting in the .275-.300 range while playing the type of defense he plays you can't argue with that. I like Morel and want to allow him to continue to develop, especially if we're rebuilding. And if we're rebuilding, moving on Hanley Ramirez is less likely than Minnie Minoso returning to the team. I think the last thing this team needs to worry about is replacing Brent Morel.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 03:42 PM) I would imagine Reddick would be involved in any deal as well. Personally, I don't think Boston is a good trade partner. I guess I am one of the few who would love Reddick on the team. Not sure where he fits (even if CQ is moved), but I love his approach at the plate and his defense is very good. As far as a matchup with Boston...they don't really have any stud pitching prospects, but they have a few good ones (Alex Wilson comes to mind). While Boston isn't a perfect trading partner, I think some potential exists there.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 02:50 PM) I agree with you, but here's how I see it: We have to admit that, especially with Paddy, the Sox are in a much better position to evaluate this prospect than we of the internet. If there was consensus all around the league, we could safely assume his quality level is in line with that consensus, but there isnt' Some people are saying 'meh' while others are saying top-of-the-rotation prospect. I think we have no choice but to give KW and Paddy the benefit of the doubt on how good of a prospect he is. Like you said, we don't know if his fastball is 87 or 96, but you can bet that KW/Paddy know exactly how fast it is. What we can evaluate is the strategy behind it. So, I look at it as Santos (young, promising RP aged 30 on a good contract) for Molina (legitimate AA SP prospect with top of the rotation ceiling), which I'm way down with. Bad teams should dump RP's at peak value for high end pitching prospects. So, are we critiquing the trade or are we critiquing the Sox ability to scout and evaluate talent? In my opinion, we (as posters) have little to contribute to the latter discussion at this point. If we're evaluating the trade by itself, assume that Molina is a top shelf prospect in the Sox opinion, I think it's harder to find fault. I am personally critiquing the trade and not the talent level of the player. To that end, I believe value was left on the vine. This said, I have reservations about Kenny's staff to properly evaluate/scout talent. We have one of the worst minor league systems in the majors and Kenny has recently traded off middle to top of the rotation talent (Hudson and Gio) for which we now have nothing to show. The Edwin Jackson trade was utterly mind boggling, because of who the agent was. Kenny knew Jackson was a short term solution and he really wasn't that much of an upgrade (if any) over Hudson. And OH BY THE WAY, take a prospect WITH HUDSON as well. What kind of sense was that trade? none!!! The Gio trade, which included another elite prospect + going for a mediocre outfielder is also something a 'good front office' does not do. The people responsible for the current sorry state of the White Sox are the ones we are asking to rebuild this thing!!!! I just have my doubts. I really am very cynical right now, as much as I've been in a long time about this franchise, but as White Sox fans I guess we're used to that on some level.

QUOTE (TheHugeUnit @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 01:53 PM) I don't want to sound like a douche but the Yankees wouldn't do Banuelos for Danks straight up. The M's were thinking about Banuelos and Nunez for Lee and the Yankees offered them Montero instead along with Adams and McAllister in that now famous non-trade. The Yankees think the world of Banuelos, heck even Mariano called him the greatest prospect he's seen since he came up and Mo never really talks about the uoung guys other than a token he's going to be good, he's got good stuff, etc. the Middle INF spects you speak of, you mean Culver, Gumbs and the GCL crowd? Since they really don't have much else in the upper levels sans Adams and CoJo. No, you don't sound bad. I know Banuelos is highly regarded. I had no idea his reputation was THAT good. Ive even seen the other pitcher in your system ranked higher in some lists. Again, I believe there is a fit between the Sox and Yankees that would NOT entail the Sox getting ANY of the Yankees top 5 prospects. The Yankees have an excellent, deep system and if they can get a sturdy pitcher like Danks without giving up their prime 5 or 6 guys I think they (the Yankees) would be inclined to do it and the Sox (who have a wretched farm system) would jump at the chance to start retooling it.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 01:48 PM) I mean for the whole league not just with the Sox... I do believe Quentin will be traded tonight and Buehrle will also be leaving the Sox tonight. Not sure about CQ, but I agree about Mark. Very very sad. But I also understand the situation. If Dunn/Rios/Peavy play badly again next year the venom will make last year look like a walk in the tulips. Mark essentially is NOT coming back to the White Sox precisely because of those guys. 2005 seems like 40 years ago.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 01:43 PM) This is the last full day of the winter meetings and it has been pretty damn boring so far.. I thought there would be more trades and signings.. I think something else will get done before tomorrow. Also, the groundwork for trades may be happening now. Trades that may not happen until next month. If teams are offering garbage for John Danks, then I am glad we are hearing no news.

If we're talking catchers, Sabastian Valle of the Phillies would be a target IF Alexei Ramirez becomes available (the Phils would show great interest if Rollins leaves). For Alexei I think the Sox could get Valle + two other prospects (Michael Schwimer-pitcher) + 1 other. Thing is I think Valle is still a couple years away. Schwimer is getting close so it would depend on the third guy (Brody Colin-P or Fred Galvis-SS of future would be sweet)...

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:51 PM) High comedy right there. The fact I misspelled their names?

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:48 PM) Ha, "if he's the second coming of Greg Maddux, then he's a future #2." This was done on purpose, because we already have the next Steve Carlton (Chris Sale) and he's our #1

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:37 PM) I was simply debating your use of "best case scenario". But what is 'best case scenario'? I think every prospect has 'an upside'...and NONE have the upside of 'greatest pitcher ever'? But you are right, because this isn't an exact science Molina "could" become the next Walter Johnson. Reality speaking his upside appears to be a middle of the rotation pitcher (at this time). After we see him a bit more, he gains experience, the hitters adjust to him, then we are well within our right to re-evaulate him and adjust his 'upside'...which could be better (or worse) than initially thought. I don't think anyone knows (not even Kenny Williams) just HOW GOOD Molina can be. It appears his potential is all over the map, which for this deal...I DONT LIKE. To deal someone like Santos I'd have liked to have gotten multiple prospects (even one a bit lower ranked) or a single top prospect that has had more time at more advanced levels. There are still too many unknowns about Molina. Hell, i can't even get a good idea of where his fastball sits. I've seen high 80s...and I've seen 96.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:31 PM) Seems like Gio being available is really holding things up on the Danks front. It was said that KW was asking the Yankees for Banuelos and Montero. I would accept a package without those guys in it. The Yankees have some intriguing names. If Gio gets dealt somewhere else would the Yankees part with a package headlined by Betances? What would be a realistic package in return for Danks? I would love Betances, Gary Sanchez and Hector Noesi but even that may be unrealistic. They also have OF's Mason Williams, Slade Heathcoate, and Dante Bichette JR. No way the Yankees give up Betances, Sanchez and Noesi for Danks. I do believe a deal including Sanchez/Romine + Noesi + lower prospect is possible. Or the Sox could maybe get Banuelos in there, but remove Sanchez/Murphy (replace with JR Murhpy-Catcher) ... just tossing ideas out there The Yankees as you mention have a couple OFs plus a few interesting middle infield specs. I do believe there is a fit with the Yankees involving Danks and we wouldn't need to touch ANY of their top 5 prospects. Given that Danks is coming into his last year that's an argument to be made. Kenny asking for Montero and Banuelos is high comedy, although I like the go-for it idea...don't really know unless you ask. -edited for proper spelling-

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:14 PM) I would take Pomeranz in a heartbeat for Beckham Now THAT is a projected top of the rotation starter.

Hell of a good kid. Best wishes to Sergio in Toronto...the Jays got them an excellent closer.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 11:55 AM) There is a note in today's Denver Post that the Rockies are interested in Gordon Beckham. Second base is a position where they think they need an upgrade. If Kenny listens, the Rockettes have several verry good prospects. I really don't want to trade Beckham. He is young and talented....you rebuild with players like him. However, if the Rockies are willing to pay the fiddler I wouldn't be totally opposed to a move. Trade rumors are just that...I wouldn't put stock into them. I suppose if Beck is moved Lillibridge is given a chance to play 2nd base full time?

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 11:49 AM) Molina seems to be similar to Hudson. Both guys have ace peripherals with mid rotation stuff. Both guys seems to have shot up the prospect lists out of nowhere. 2 questions... 1. Would you guys have been happy with trading Hudson for Santos straight up? 2. Did Edwin Jackson have less or more value than Santos? The biggest problem with all this is Hudson did it at higher levels. Molina has no real time above A ball. Sorry, but 22 innings isn't enough of a sample size. -To answer your question, damn right I'd trade Santos for Hudson, but that's not what happened here. We traded Santos for an A league pitcher. Hudson dominated at AAA at least, throwing over 100 innings. -Also to acquire Edwin Jackson, Williams gave them Hudson + another prospect (albeit lower down the line-David Holmberg). If we had acquired Molina + young lefty prospect who can hit 93-94 on the gun I'd have been fine with this trade. While we can debate if Molina is going to never make the show, be a mop up guy, a bottom of the rotation guy or top of the rotation guy, I see no debate that Williams left value on the table.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 11:11 AM) No, it's not. I've seen it mentioned that he's as high as a #2. And even then, that's all conjecture. The best case scenario is that he's the greatest pitcher of all time. YES, if he's the second coming of Greg Maddux (as someone comically brought that name up) then he becomes a #2, but get real. You don't project a prospect to reach a status that 1 player in like 40 years reaches. The player is a "nice" prospect...I think calling Molina a 'nice' prospect is more than fair. I didn't say he was garbage, but the counter argument is that we got some sort of bonafide stud, can't miss player is simply put wrong. And people are making this "he's a prodigy" argument to spin this trade by Williams that so many experts are calling into doubt (again, NOT because Molina isn't a nice prospect, but because Kenny sold low). NICE prospect...which really are not that hard to acquire, because most of them don't make it anyway.

QUOTE (PorkChopExpress @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 11:22 AM) So apparently the Dodgers are looking for a bat (OF or 1B type) and a reliever. Anyone know how their farm system is? Anything worthwhile for a Quentin/Thornton package? Any chance Konerko waives his NTC to play there again? It's an average farm system.

QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 10:47 AM) We've seen what teams will offer for relievers with a fraction of the friendliness of Sergio's contract at the trade deadline when they are over a barrel. I do not understand why to trade Santos this soon in a fair-at-best deal unless the Sox know something we don't. The meme now is the Blue Jays saw Molina as the 2nd coming of Bob Gibson and didn't ever want to trade him and Santos sucks anyway. Which of course is total hogwash...Most 'experts' see Molina's upside as a good relief pitcher or middle of rotation starter and NOT top of the rotation prospects. Now if he does make it to our 3rd starter that's actually a good thing, but keep in mind that is BEST case scenario and it's also NOT likely to happen (as prospects are really hit or miss, especially those with nothing more than cursory innings in AA).

Supposedly KW is asking for a kings ransom for Danks. Comparisons to the Ubaldo trade (4 prospects, 2 first rounders)...Even if Kenny is only able to get 3 prospects and 1 first rounder I'll take it. his first trade is tough to spin, but there is plenty of time to round out the system a bit and team.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 02:09 AM) Santos was expendable since the Sox got Reed and a few others to replace him. I personally thought moving Santos was a good idea. I don't believe the return was good enough. Either way, most of Kenny's acquisitions over the past few years have been terrible and I tend to believe this is another one of those bad moves. I believe Santos will thrive in Toronto and hopefully Molina won't languish in the minors or be relegated to mop up duty and can actually become a viable middle of the rotation starter.