kwolf68

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 02:03 AM) David Aardsma had almost 40 saves in 2009 and about 32 saves the following year. I am pretty sure any team can pick him up for cheap, since Seattle doesn't want him back. There is only a few good closers out there today. The rest is a crap shoot from year to year KW did a great job on this trade today.. You want the definition of crap shoot...try minor league prospects. KW did a great job? I guess no one was stabbed in the ear with a butter knife so yea not bad. This was NOT a great job...at best it's a 'wait and see what happens in 2 years' job.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 01:55 AM) Duquette has only been the Orioles GM for about 3 weeks.. According to AA from the Blue Jays they have been working on this trade for about a month.. So what that Duquette has been GM for 3 weeks. He could have easily been contacted at any point in those 3 weeks. If this is one month of intense negotiations then I am even more confused. In my view Molina was expendable to the Jays given they have Syndergaard, Nicolini, Hutchison and Norris in their system with the couple terrific young arms in their current rotation. For what Santos brings to the mound and to the accounting office he should have netted more. I see NOTHING to suggest otherwise.

QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 01:46 AM) I liked Santos but I just don't get how people are claimimg he's an elite closer. He hasn't even been a close for an entire season yet and he wasn't all that lights out in the 2nd half of last year anyway. Maybe teams started to figure him out or maybe he just tired. Either way he's been dominant as a closer for about 6-7 weeks. To get a top pitching prospect seems like a good deal to me. Santos could just as easily flame out as become an elite closer. Exhibit A: The stock "Santos isn't that good" meme. First of all, no one said Santos was elite, but he was clearly a very attractive trading chip. Striking out 90 in 60 innings is pretty sick. And while his ERA was a bit high (largely due to a horrible September) he still managed 30 saves in his first year of closing. Santos obviously has a plus arm and it was proven at the major league level. He is in the prime of his career and he was INSANELY affordable. In this day and age of baseball where mediocre middle relievers are making more money than most state budgets it was pretty nice to have a player actually EARNING HIS SALARY. So what do we do? Trade him. Apparently to the first team who called for a perplexing return of a deal. Not saying Molina sucks. However, I see no evidence that Williams did not leave some value on the table.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 01:34 AM) Phil Rogers said a few weeks ago that Santos was being shopped to other teams... Evidently not the Orioles based on what their GM said. This just 'feels' like a haphazard trade.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:52 AM) Maybe enough that KW and company jumped at the opportunity? That seems unlikely, but I also can't deny that possibility either. I would like to hear how negotiations went and would love for a reporter to ask Kenny why he didn't approach other teams who may have been interested in Santos. Until then, we are all left to speculate. -Some think Williams blew the trade, coulda had more, he sold the player too soon and didn't exhaust all potential suitors. -Others like it, even are arguing that Santos wasn't that good anyway and this guy is the next Pedro Martinez

If Mark does retire he walks away from the contract right. So I have no big deal with him 'changing his mind' from talking retirement to going for a 4 year deal. In fact, he may well be walking AWAY from money. If he truly wants to retire before 4 years, he could simply take a shorter deal, which would most likely be more money. MB has mentioned retirement a lot, but when the season starts there is no one you can count on more than him. Nothing I've seen so far has sullied my view of Mark Buehrle.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:42 AM) Perhaps the Sox went after Molina, not intending to offer Santos. The Blue Jays said, "you give us Santos and it's a deal." KW might not have wanted to back down off of their negotiations in order to shop Santos around, as they could possibly have lost their chance at Molina by walking away or hurt his reputation as a GM sort of in the way that Rizzo did it to KW. I'm not saying that it's a good reason, but it might be something along those lines. I can buy this. However, it has been suggested here that the Jays actively came after Santos. And how elite of a prospect is Molina that we'd be losing so much to walk away? Opinions are mixed on him...some say future relief pitcher, others say middle of rotation. I've seen no one saying he's a top end starter. It is clear (without me seeing him I'll admit) that he has impressive control, a big time splitter...but the other pitches don't appear to grade as high. The one thing I DO Like and this is the ONLY thing I like is that Keith Law doesn't like the trade.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:20 AM) because we werent shopping him! we weren't looking to trade him. We wanted Molina, and when AA said Santos, we pulled the trigger. You can't say "oh please give me a few hours to see if I can get a better deal". What kind of negotiating is that? If you feel you're getting a good deal, based on all the evaluations you've been making the last however many years, you take it. THAT'S the game. That's how it works. BECAUSE we weren't "shopping him" should have been further evidence to bring in a more impressive haul. It's players you are actively trying to dump that sometimes don't bring back the good value (crappy players who are paid a lot). And I don't think for a nano second that 'the game' dictates you can't tell the Jays GM that you'd like to shop Santos around if you can't get exactly what you want. If the Jays REALLY wanted him then they should have paid a better package. It's not like we have acquired this can't miss he's the next Bob Gibson prospect.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:10 AM) it was far from "brutal" If other possible suitors were not contacted then it was brutal. If the Orioles were contacted and they offered a package of equal/less value then no it wasn't brutal. Why if you're willing to move a player you don't try to get the absolute most for him you can? Again, this isn't necessarily a critique on the player received, rather on the common sense notion that each player moved should be moved for the absolute best package, which may not have been the case in this instance.

QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:03 AM) He was not being shopped. Jays have chased him for a while now. But as soon as you're willing to move a player, then you exhaust all opportunities, including calling the Orioles. Brutal trade.

QUOTE (The Baconator @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:01 AM) Is anyone else concerned with the Sun article when they talked about Santos? They mentioned that the Os would have been in on him as well but didn't know he was available. Um, if we're going to flip him, shouldn't we let it be known he was available to get the best possible offer? I just don't know why Williams wouldn't bid up the price on Santos. Having a team out there that would have been interested who wasn't even aware of Santos' availability just wreaks of bush league GM work. I don't get it. Every single expert on MLB Network is pretty much scratching their head over this move. Adding the fact at least 1 team confirmed to have no knowledge of player's availability just adds to the disappointment of this deal, because it likely (not guaranteed, but possible) could have brought us back a better package.

QUOTE (knightni @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 11:47 PM) Viciedo and Lillibridge are RFs. Why is Viciedo penciled in at RF? I'd rather have Dayan in LF. He probably got starts in RF because Pierre was playing the only position he could reasonably play (LF). And Lillibridge is a utility guy. He isn't a full time RF Reddick is a guy you put in RF and you'll get excellent defense and can play most every game (except perhaps against really tough lefties). If CQ is moved, then we either get someone back who can play RF, put a less than steller defensive player there or Rios enters the lineup (with De Aza moving to RF)....De Aza isn't much of a power bat so I'd rather have him in CF, but if Rios can (choking snort) rekindle his 25homer magic then we could carry a softer stick in RF. Just throwing stuff out there. I doubt Reddick is even in the picture with CQ, although I can absolutely see why the BoSox would like CQ.

The Red Sox have some 'nice' prospects. Someone like Alex Wilson...doesn't really project as a #1 starter or anything, but is a very solid prospect and I could see middle of the rotation potential. They have several others like him...I've seen Wilson pitch and I like him. Casey Kelly is a higher ranked prospect, but I don't know much about him. I also like Josh Reddick. I love how he commands the plate and has a cannon in the outfield. The Sox really have no right fielders if CQ is moved. Reddick would slot in nicely in RF for the next 5+ years. In Boston, not sure he has a spot so he could be a moveable piece. Would love to work a deal to get Reddick + pitching prospect (a Wilson type).

QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 11:19 PM) Gio Gonzalez is haunting KW at these meetings. Compromising Danks' value for sure. I don't know. You think people maybe think Danks is a more proven pitcher? Has post season mettle and has pitched his entire career thus far in a tough park for pitchers. Gio, while having electric stuff, hasn't done it but for 1 year plus he did it in Oakland (pitcher friendly park). A move of Danks better yield a very nice haul. Danks could easily slot into the #2 or #3 spot in nearly any rotation and be counted on.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 11:06 PM) No way Orioles give up Britton for anyone we're likely to give up. Perhaps...They would in the very least need a replacement for him, meaning at least a middle of the rotation starter. They do like Floyd. I don't see the point in a Floyd for Britton deal though, unless the Sox just wanted to get a younger starting pitcher. Could Floyd/Britton be expanded to include Carlos Quentin? I am not good with 'fake trades', but a starting point of Gavin Floyd and Carlos Quentin for Zach Britton + others.

QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 10:55 PM) Sox and Orioles could match up very well. Baltimore has a lot of what the Sox want now -young upside pitching. MLB guys like Britton, Tillman, or system talent like Parker Bridwell. But then who pitches for the Orioles? Maybe they'll just let other teams setup a T. Zach Britton is very interesting and I'd love to grab a kid with his arm. While I doubt the Orioles would move him, his first year wasn't overly inspiring, and his K rate was a bit pedestrian given he was really thought to be a strike out pitcher coming up, but he showed signs and I doubt the Os would move him. His arm is big time though. You also mention Tillman. He is much less exciting to me and doesn't project like Britton, which means someone like he would be a bit more likely.

Gammons said the Red Sox and Orioles would have "killed" for a guy like Santos. I suppose Williams didn't get the offer he wanted from them, assuming he even contacted them.

Trade for a closer? Huh?

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 02:23 PM) Ha, and I'd take Minka Kelly

I'd take the Braves #2 prospect as well (Vizcaino)....

I like the idea someone had about sticking Rios in Santos' luggage (return to sender). Anyway...I'm over it. Like the player, don't like the return, but I've been a White Sox fan since the 1970s and nothing will change that, so I'll wait on our next move in the meetings and see how the team starts looking.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 02:06 PM) Funny you should mention that he's a converted infielder....... I suppose so. Haha...still Santos is at least proven at the major league level. Again, my problem is these trades seem to lack levity. Kenny trades multiples of our prospects (from a system that has never been that good since he got here) and we can't get something like that on the flipside? I just don't understand him. I suppose he is living off 2005 like Ozzie did.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 01:57 PM) I am amazed (but not really) at the stupidity of this fan base. We have an inability to think logically about something. Instead, we overreact with the first thought that comes to our head. What's the LAST thing a rebuilding team needs? A closer. What's the first thing a rebuilding team needs? Pitching prospects. And everything you said here is NOT AN ARGUMENT to discount the main argument most of 'the stupid fans have' that this was a less than fair haul for Santos. Ok so he was 3.55 era and blew 6 saves...but at least he was pitching in the majors. And he's freaking cheap as heck... NO ONE has said the pitcher we got sucks. NO ONE (that I read)...the complaint is fair value wasn't met. Kenny couldn't have gotten more? We got a 22 year old who has all of 24 innings above the A ball level, a converted infielder for goodness sakes...there is a risk in going after this guy, a risk that would have necessitated a credible argument to maybe have another prospect (albeit lower ranked) added into the mix. We gave up THREE prospects (including 2 elite) for a mediocre outfielder (swisher). It's amazing Kenny being so willing to dump prospects by the bucketload is so easy to dupe on the other side. Try out his trade for Jackson...Hudson for Jackson seemed to be a MORE THAN fair deal, but freaking Kenny adds in another prospect (Holmberg) albeit a lower prospect.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 01:56 PM) Axelrod IMO should contend for a rotation spot next season. I REALLY like his stuff. No argument with this. We could have really built around a rotation of Sale, Hudson, Gio and Axelrod. (not to beat the dead horses anymore).

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 01:54 PM) Addison Reed would be my inclination. 108 minor league innings with 155 k's 1.41 ERA .74 WHIP Yes, I like Addison Reed myself a lot.