Vance Law

QUOTE (JorgeFabregas @ Sep 15, 2010 -> 07:53 PM) Which cases are you considering? Game by game? Or are you counting Hudson's White Sox starts vs. Jackson's White Sox starts? You don't trade or acquire a player's past--you trade for their future. Using the phrase case by case, I meant to refer individually to each of the trades, as I did in the post. I think the point has been made, Hudson and Clayton are considered #4 or 5 starters in the AL, especially in our park. You wouldn't want to count on both of them. We got rid of Clayton, our third best lefty starter to pick up Peavy. That makes sense to me still. The injury is unfortunate. Jackson has a better arm and has been better for the Sox than Hudson was. Yes, we sacrificed the dollars and years of Hudson for the superior, more expensive Jackson. We knew that going in. I'm fine with that happening in a pennant race when you lose a starter for the season. And Gio has been good in a good pitcher's park. It would be nice if we still had him. It would be even nicer if we still had Swisher, who we traded Gio to get. It would be nicer still if we didn't have Guillen as the manager.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 16, 2010 -> 09:01 AM) The rotating DH is like Communism. They both work in theory. The idea of a "rotating DH" isn't inherently good or bad. Would a rotating DH unit of Pujols and Ryan Howard be good? Yes, it would be great. How about one that features Jim Thome or Aubrey Huff? Excellent. How about one that gives the most at bats to Mark Kotsay? Terrible. It's players that are good or bad. And Ozzie is an idiot for demanding Kotsay be on the team and given those at bats.

QUOTE (Rooftop Shots @ Sep 15, 2010 -> 08:24 AM) Only problem was, that we got him to be a clutch hitter and drive in runs, so in essence, he really hasn't done squat for us when doing what he is being paid to do. You can't get a player and have any expectations about what they'll do in a sample size as small as 13 games (meanwhile, he as a .429 OBP with the Sox). You pick up Manny with a month to go, however, if you're in a pennant race and you have a manager dumb enough to demand that Mark Kotsay be an integral part of your offense for a substantial part of the season. Manny will without a doubt be an upgrade, as he has been. And there is a very good chance that he'll be excellent, just like he has been overall this season, and last season, and the season before that, and every single season he has played in the big leagues. Mark Kotsay's best offensive season was not as good as Manny's worst offensive season. Kotsay's career best season was not as good as Manny's worst season. Kotsay's career best season was not as good as Jim Thome's worst season.

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ Sep 15, 2010 -> 04:05 PM) There is nothing wrong with having a fourth or fifth starter who pitches for less than a million a year. True. We had that when we brought Danks and Floyd into the rotation, but they are getting to their expensive years. We had it with Garcia this year. Potentially with Sale next year. You are right that developing our own pitching has not been a strong suit recently. Nor has developing our own position players.

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ Sep 15, 2010 -> 03:34 PM) It's aggravating to watch the Twins handle the Sox year after year with a much smaller payroll. Sox handled the Twins in 2005 and 2008. In 2010 their payrolls: Sox $103 million Twins $97.7 million

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ Sep 15, 2010 -> 03:15 PM) As the Sox move into the off season and a possible decision looms between keeping Ozzie or keeping Kenny, I won't dwell on the $4 million wasted on Manny Ramirez, who has contributed more bogus haircuts than RBIs or extra-base hits. Instead, I'll note that Daniel Hudson, Gio Gonzalez and Clayton Richard, three pitchers making under a half-million each, three guys at least four seasons from free agency, three guys drafted by and developed by the White Sox are a combined 32-17. All three have earned run averages below 3.50. All three have allowed fewer hits than innings pitched. All three are five games over. 500. Not keeping any of the three was a colossal blunder by the GM and the collective decisions will contribute to financial difficulties on the roster in the next few years. There. Now I feel better. On a case by case basis, Edwin Jackson is still kicking Hudson's butt. And we got him because we needed results now for a pennant race With Gio, the only problem I have is that because of Guillen's nightmare ego/personality we had to give up Swisher for basically nothing. Clayton's got a 3.70 ERA in the best pitcher's park in baseball. And it's in the NL. And it's in the NL West. That grades out probably to a notch or so above average in the AL. Looks worse only in hindsight with Peavy's injury. It's the Swisher to the Yankees deal that I think is the worst during Kenny's tenure (and I blame Ozzie). He could have been playing right field all year with Quentin at DH, Kotsay on a fishing boat somewhere, and we would have clinched the division by now (joking).

You should put a vote thingy in your post. The best thing in the world that could happen to the franchise would be Ozzie getting fired. Anyone, absolutely anyone, would be better than him.

QUOTE (CQMVP @ Sep 14, 2010 -> 11:07 PM) Even so, he just has nothing left to offer the game of baseball. .885 OPS this season

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 13, 2010 -> 11:55 AM) Did you watch The Club? Ozzie did in fact get his way with the rotating DH, and he wanted Kotsay as part of it. In addition, there is an article from the offseason where Ozzie is quoted as saying (I'm paraphrasing now), "I never ask Kenny for specific players. The only guy I ever asked Kenny about was can we keep Mark Kotsay..."

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 13, 2010 -> 11:22 AM) So...guys...the ones who keep pointing at other things that went wrong or that hurt the Sox this year are missing the point. Yes, lots of things have hurt the White Sox this year. There is, however, a reason why we keep coming back to the Thome thing and the DH spot; unlike so very many of the other things that have hurt us, the DH spot being a problem was entirely predictable, and it was a completely self-inflicted wound. By that, I mean, first and foremost, we didn't lose out on Thome because we were outbid (although you could slightly make that case regarding Damon). We didn't come into the season with Kotsay and Jones as the primary DH's out of necessity, we did so out of choice. Go up and down the list of other things that went wrong for us...and Hell throw in the Twins...you won't find a single example of a self-inflicted wound anything like what we did to ourselves with that decision. Some examples of things that went wrong; Jenks imploding; yeah it was predictable, but we took steps to cover it (Putz, Thornton). Peavy getting hurt; yeah, predictable that we'd lose a starter, so we went into the season 6 deep there. Teahen struggling on defense? We've got Vizquel as a backup/late game replacement. Quentin struggling on defense? Jones is a solid defensive replacement. Joe Nathan getting hurt? Hardly missed a beat. Justin Morneau going down? Didn't miss a beat. Bad things are going to happen to teams. Some times you can't plan for them; the Twins wouldn't have recovered had they lost both Mauer and Morneau. The Sox got hit hard when not only Jenks struggled, but Thornton and Putz hit the DL and Santos hit the rookie wall simultaneously; you can't recover when 4 different parts of your bullpen suddenly stink. The difference with the Kotsay thing is everyone paying attention could see it coming. Even if he was very good, Kotsay would still have gotten too many at bats, been a defensive liability in the OF, been week against LHP, and at best put up a .750 OPS. There really was no way that the DH spot wasn't going to be a weakness even if everything turned out right...and the team managed to, through some mental gymnastics, convince themselves not only that this wouldn't be a problem, but that this would be a major asset, and that Jim wouldn't do any damage to us if he was on the Twins! Listing other things that went wrong doesn't change the fact that this error was entirely predictable in January. That's why we keep coming back to this, whether we like it or not. It was a mistake on day 1. It was never going to work. Exactly.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Sep 13, 2010 -> 05:28 AM) I agree. He can pick throws out of the dirt (and he gets plenty of those) better than most. His range is limited, but to me it doesn't seem to adversely affect him too much. Range is ultimately what UZR is judging, hence the low number for Konerko. I don't think it takes into account picking balls in the dirt which is definitely one of Paulie's strong suits.

QUOTE (J.Reedfan8 @ Sep 13, 2010 -> 12:03 AM) One year should not define them as hitters. How about the last 2 years? Quentin WAR -.3 Jones WAR 2.6 Basically Quentin needs to put up MVP type numbers to be as worthwhile as Jones because his defense is such a nightmare.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 12, 2010 -> 11:16 PM) Number wise: Thome has been worth 3.3 WAR this year. Subtract 3 wins from Twins and they're 82-61. Add 3 to us and we're 82-61. Round up to 4 wins and they're 81-62 and we're 83-60. And that's not even adding the fact that Kotsay has been -.7 WAR. Thome instead of Kotsay is roughly equal to 4 wins to us.

QUOTE (J.Reedfan8 @ Sep 12, 2010 -> 04:19 PM) [Quentin] is a much better hitter than Kotsay/Jones. Have you looked at Andruw Jones' numbers? Quentin and Jones have identical .333 OBPs Quentin's OPS .810 Jones' OPS .824 Jones' 2nd half OPS .902 Quentin's 2nd half OPS .711 Jones 2nd half HR 6 (in a little more than half the PAs) Quentin 2nd half HR 5 And oh yeah, Jones is insanely better in right field. He should have become the full time right fielder weeks ago.

QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 12, 2010 -> 06:50 AM) But the decision to not sign *Thome* AT THE TIME was not that bad of a decision. It's almost like going back to a draft after 5 years and figuring out who should have been drafted. nope. read the opinions of a huge number of posters in the 66 page thread from January. January was before the season started. QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 12, 2010 -> 06:50 AM) But honestly, I believe if we did sign Thome, we'd still be in this spot and people would be ripping on K-Dubya and Oz for going into the season with an aging DH who couldn't play full time. some people would. an enormous number of posters would not. peruse the 66 page thread from January to determine who thought what in the offseason, which was before the season started. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76042

Jones now has the same OPS as Quentin. Fangraphs has Jones' defense at 1.4, Quentin at -17.6.

Melton just now says: The Sox have about 165 home runs (they have 155), they may have 200 by the end of the year (they will not). Wants to see the Sox steal bases with more success, thinks they're around 50% (they are at 66%) Thinks Manny will get a standing O in Boston.

QUOTE (T R U @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 02:06 PM) s*** I think he has a shot at AL MVP if he finishes strong and we make the playoffs Josh Hamilton disagrees

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 30, 2010 -> 11:42 PM) Really? Why? I would guess because it's not unlikely that De Aza is an all-around more valuable player than Pierre.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 26, 2010 -> 03:00 PM) Can they be traded if they cleared waivers though or does that not matter? I'm sure that no one claimed either guy. Yes. If they have not already cleared waivers, they would. With ease.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 09:49 AM) Still find it puzzling that he is batting last in the lineup. He's been one of our most productive and consistent hitters since the ASB and gets the least amount of ABs. 2nd Half: .342/.398/.558/.957 5 HR 23 RBIs You are aware of who makes the lineups aren't you?

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 22, 2010 -> 11:23 AM) AJ/Castro platoon now (or 2 months ago) fixed

QUOTE (stretchstretch @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 10:47 PM) the shame of it is, in the playoffs NY will put Cano about 50 ft into right field and Thome will ground out to him about 5 times and go hitless in three games Can they play Cano in the right field stands? How's Cano's defense against a base on balls?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 04:04 PM) I wish somebody could go through all the threads last year saying how people were sick of Thome. I can't believe suddenly big Jim is so popular around this board when people were glad to see him go. You can also just go back to to an enormous thread in the offseason during the period Ozzie was deciding whether or not to pick up Thome and see a very large number of posters expressing shock, dismay, and horror at the idea of letting Thome get away in favor of Kotsay.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 01:16 PM) Did anyone ever consider that Thome may be a better fit for the Twins than the Sox? 31 teams balked at signing Thome and the Twins may have offered his last chance at being on a team only at their demands. The DH by committee is only a failure because it's filled by Kenny's lightning in a bottle approach. Kotsay was kept to help give PK a rest at 1st while Paulie can DH. Thome gives you no options other than needing a pinch runner. His 2009 numbers are not what you want from a DH anyway. I couldn't disagree more with all of this. Thome was glaringly a better fit for the Sox, who had, and still have no left handed power and no legitimate DH. The Twins didn't have room or a need for Thome. He was simply too good of a deal to pass up. He played way less than he deserved in the first half because the Twins have full time starters in outfield, 1B, DH. He's so clearly good that they found at bats for him against righties. And the smartest thing- what are the chances that at some point one of your outfielders, first baseman, or DH gets injured? I'd say not insignificant. It doesn't hurt so much to lose Morneau when Thome is putting up pretty comparable numbers. And it wasn't 31 teams (there are 30 major league baseball teams) that passed on Thome, it was 12 other than the White Sox (14 teams in the AL). Of those 12 you logically exclude any of the low payroll teams with no chance of contention (why would they spend money on a DH) and the potentially competing teams who already had a DH (Boston, Yankees, Mariners, Texas, Rays, Detroit, Angels).