caulfield12

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 10:38 AM) I think "always" is the wrong word to use in this situation, as there are always exceptions - guys like Jose Abreu and Jermaine Dye come to mind immediately. Still, I think you know what he meant. We don't need to play this semantics game. It's a good and valuable discussion and I don't want to see it degrade into a pissing match. Alexei Ramirez also comes to mind.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 10:18 AM) Uhhh, another $35-45? You'd assume somewhere around $10-12 mill a year for Robertson and $8-10 mill for Miller. At the most, that's $22. You bring in a couple of flyers - not $6-10 million type guys, but $2-5 million types or minor league free agents who aren't going to cost a ton of money. And then a 4th outfielder who hits left handed and is fairly good defensively? That costs like $5 mill at the most. No, it's nothing like $100,000 in student loands, what's another couple hundred thousand, because that's all borrowed money. It's like "I have $70,000 I can spend on a new car, and while I should go for something reasonable that will cost me in the $20-$30,000 range, I am going to splurge on a $55,000 car and hope nothing comes up." It's risky but has high dividends. It's not may favorite way of going and I'm not advocating it, but if you get Victor, you may as well try and set yourself up the best you can to win this season. Robertson's already guaranteed $15.3 million. He's unlikely to get any $36 million/3 year deals, so he ends up staying in NYC... If we're bringing in $2-5 million reclamation starting pitchers, Dick Allen will have his own website. They would be better off going with Noesi and Bassitt in that case, unless Don Cooper really knows something nobody else does....never mind. And why are we adding a 4th outfielder when we don't even have a 3rd one? Sounds like you want Aoki, Denorfia or perhaps DeAza again.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 10:04 AM) Obviously dependent upon price. We can argue that until the cows come home, but I agree his bat would look good in the lineup. I just don't think the price is going to match up for what the Sox are willing to pay compared to others. If it does, that's awesome. At that point, they may as well go out, spend big money on Robertson and Miller, bring in a couple decent starting pitching flyers, sign or acquire a left handed outfielder who is good defensively, and see what happens. Another $35-45 million when you just blew $17-18? It's kind of like when you have over $100,000 in student loans, what's another couple of hundred thousand at that point?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 10:02 AM) Apparently you were only focusing on the bad signings then? You didn't mention the big one, nor did you mention all of the little things that have worked otu. When has signing a 36 year old to a 3-4 year guaranteed free agent contract (and not a convicted in the court of public opinion PEDS user) ever worked out in baseball history when that player was coming off an anomalous statistical career timeline performance in his contract year, which happened to be in his mid 30's?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 10:00 AM) I am not switching arguments. You made my point. You have to spend money to sign good players. Besides, if the White Sox do improve just a little bit, the cost for signing a free agent will become a 1st round pick if they wait. Again, I wouldn't go 4 guaranteed years for Martinez. 3 with performance based incentives to make it 4, but he is perfect for the White Sox line up. Abreu and Tanaka were unique circumstances. We only had 2-3 competitors for Jose, when normally the big spenders would have been involved. In this case, we're fighting with 6-8 (maybe even 10) teams (the majority closer to the playoffs) who could use Victor Martinez at either DH or 1B. The other teams are all kicking the tires on Sandoval, Hanley Ramirez and Headley, who might quickly sign with the Yankees and further decrease the supply and push up demand.

Jose Fernandez doesn't make a lot of sense because he ALSO isn't a very good defender and he's playing a position where we have three potential options (Semien/Sanchez, eventually Micah Johnson)... If we're going to upgrade, it has to be at C, 3B, LF and DH. I've read a number of threads and there's almost no mention of what Flowers is going to do next year...more of the focus has been on improving the 3B situation or whether Garcia will be a 2-3 WAR guy despite his defense and whether Eaton will/can stay healthy. I think Balta's right that there are just too many holes to fill that can't be filled (because it's cutting down the remaining money left considerably) by signing Victor Martinez. Let's say you have $15-20 million more to spend after signing Martinez (that wouldn't even get you ONE season of Robertson now). So I'll go back to my V. Martinez, Rasmus AND Brett Anderson or Sergio Romo example. Most here would say even if you added ALL FOUR of those players, you wouldn't have a surefire contender. All past evidence points to the White Sox adding AT MOST three pretty high level free agents. I'll substitute Edinson Volquez for Anderson and now we're close to $35 million again with Victor, Rasmus and Volquez and we STILL would begin the 2015 season with Danks/Noesi/Bassitt at the back end until Rodon came up....which might get us buried early. We STILL wouldn't have done anything to improve the bullpen. If you DON'T add a starter, you're stuck with the worst 3-5 rotation in baseball again. You're adding four players with LOTS of question marks. I honestly don't think there's a single player on the market right now 75% of the posters would be happy if we bought them on the free agency market because of the dollar figures/years. Ethier (subtract Danks and add $3.5 million, now no need for Rasmus) OR trade Danish, Montas and Hawkins for Heyward (which nobody will be in favor of) Victor Martinez +$17.5 million Then we'd have to add at least one veteran "second tier" starter to the rotation, let's say Volquez +$9 million Then you have $10 million left for one really good bullpen piece or two Luke Hochevars that are more speculative Eaton Ethier Abreu V.Martinez A.Garcia Conor Gillaspie/Semien Alexei Ramirez Flowers Semien/Sanchez (eventually Micah Johnson) That line-up STILL feels ONE player short, with quite a few question marks 5-9 IMO. Sale Quintana Volquez Noesi Bassitt/Beck/Carroll becoming Sale Quintana Volquez Rodon Noesi with Bassitt, Beck and Montas figuring into the bullpen puzzle, along with the $10 million you spent on a closer or two high quality set-up guys

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 08:25 AM) Yeah, spread it around. $4.25 million for Keppinger, $3 million for Belisario, $2 million for Paulino, $4 million for Downs, how did that work out? You are going to need a lot more than 5 or 10 Andersons to make it through the season. You do not "win bets", let alone win bets everytime loading your roster with players that cannot play even half a season. The same way Iguchi, Everett, Contreras, Pods, Vizcaino, Politte, Hermanson, Dye, AJ and El Duque worked for the White Sox...or the veteran additions the Red Sox made heading into the 2013 season. Remember Napoli, Victorino, Uehara, Gomes and David Ross??? None of those guys were "headliners" like Victor Martinez when they were acquired. Same thing with all the players the White Sox brought in (with the exception of F. Garcia)....Everett and El Duque were among the most expensive additions. Or the success the A's had for most of the season with Jessie Chavez and Scott Kazmir, along with their numerous "who the hell is that guy?" platoons?

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 08:17 AM) Very good summary though your solutions for the pen are a bit farfetched. No idea who Babbit is and Montas will be given every chance to stick as a starter and Cleto can't throw strikes. I was the one who suggested Saunders so if he could be traded for then there's no need to sign a FA OF and the remaining money after signing VMart could be used on the pen and/or innings eater SP . I don't like Aoki , his defense just isn't up to snuff for a slap hitter type. Bassitt, not Bruce or the novel name Saunders will now cost more than just Viciedo, if they actually intend to keep Dayan on the roster through the offseason. Like Aoki, Saunders is fine if you add a BIG bat in the middle of the line-up to go with Abreu and hopefully Avisail. He's going to give you marginal improvement, but he's the definition of a complementary player on a really good team. Now I would rather have him than Nick Markakis, but that's simply cost-benefit analysis, not who's the better player.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 07:56 AM) Brett Anderson hasn't pitched more than 83 innings in a season since 2010, and hasn't pitched more than 112 since 2009. Coming off back surgery, I don't know how anyone could project him to suddenly be a guy who can pitch the entire season. Giving him $5 million is a waste of money. Sign players that will actually help you win, not guys who will spend most of the year on the DL. Just like $60 million will be a HUGE waste of money for Martinez. I'll take 5-10 Anderson's and win that bet every time. The problem is that Hahn has to make much better assessments in that salary range than Keppinger, Belisario, Downs and Paulino (to a lesser extent). Besides, we wasted a lot more than that on Beckham and DeAza with little payoff as well.

QUOTE (chisoxfan310 @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 08:11 AM) Rasmus lost his starting spot last year. I think he may be open to taking a one year deal (plus incentives) to rebuild value to enter free agency next off-season still at a decently young age. The only way Rasmus is going to pay off is if we AT LEAST control him into the 2016 season. Otherwise, we're just another version of the Cubs for the last 3-4 years, and acquiring assets to turn around and sell them to the highest bidder.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 07:59 AM) If the Sox are going to compete, they must have one really potent, middle of the order, left handed bat. Hitting RH pitching is always of greater value than hitting lefties, simply because there are so many more of them. In the American League, and particularly in the Central Division, the Sox will arguably have most of the best lefties in Sale, Quintana and an emerging Rodon. It makes little sense to have a lineup full of right handed hitters, with most of the good southpaws in the League, on your staff. Whether or not you agree is less important than the fact that R. Hahn has openly stated this need for a potent left handed bat. There is simply no better option available to fill that need than Victor Martinez. The arguments have already been eloquently made for signing him, including the payroll flexibility and draft protection that makes his acquisition feasible. One of the arguments against signing him has been the need to fill other holes, and the inability of the Sox to contend without first doing so. I agree in principle with the position that it only makes sense to acquire V Mart, if the Sox can contend. In fact, Martinez himself has indicated that he only wants to play for a contender. The issue for me is whether or not the front office can fill the other holes this season. Many of you have expressed concerns about needing another outfielder. Filling that hole may not be that difficult. The Sox would not need a big offensive threat at that position. With Abreu and Martinez as the 3 and 4 hitters, Eaton leading off, the on base ability of C. Gillaspie, the solid offensive contributions of A. Garcia and Alexei, they could get by with a good defensive right fielder, with a good arm and decent on base skills. That would enable them to move Garcia to LF, where his raw defensive skills would not be a liability. Remember, Avi does at least possess good speed and a strong arm. It appears that Hahn has had interest in Aoki for that role. I first thought that Shuck might be that kind of guy, but the more I read about him the less convinced I am. Aoki is intriguing because he profiles as a good 2 hole hitter as well. The problem is that he is not very good vs RH pitching. However, someone like him, with reverse splits, would be adequate, and not that expensive, or hard to find. You would think that a team like Seattle, seeking a right handed power bat, might be willing to trade a good defensive right fielder, for Viciedo. I don't think that it matters from which side of the plate that outfielder bats. With Martinez in the middle of the lineup, the need for the left handed hitter would be filled. Someone suggested Saunders, and that would be fine, if Seattle were willing to make that trade. Then there is always the international pool of talent. Again, the Sox do not need a big bat in the outfield. The bullpen is a big concern, but with the additions of Babbit, one good left hander, Montas and Cleto the pen could well become an asset, rather than the liability it was in 2014. After all, while they lost Lindstrom and Jones, the Sox did witness the emergence of Putnam and Petricka as solid set up guys. J. Guerra also looks like he's back, and can be counted upon. Of course, they will have to find a closer, but they do have candidates, including the aforementioned Montas and Cleto. That brings up another issue. The Sox record was much worse than the teams overall effort, due to all of the games which the bullpen blew. How many times did Sale and Quintana give the Sox a great chance to win, only to see the pen implode? Fix the pen, and the won/loss column would look dramatically different. So, in summary: Sign V. Martinez? Find a good defensive R.F. with the ability to get on base and provide a little speed. Sign a #3 RH Starter Sign one good LH reliever That should be within the budget of the front office, and could very well put a contender on the field this coming season. Providing management could accomplish those other goals, I'd vote to try to sign Martinez. For me the question is; Would V Mart consider signing with the Sox, not should they offer him a lucrative contract. So, what would I offer him, if it were my decision (not necessarily my money)? I'd offer him what I speculated it would take to sign him; 4 years and $70 Million. It would be shocking for the White Sox to sign Martinez. And without Martinez, you can't have Aoki in the outfield. You're just giving up way too much power to acquire a platoon hitter who's a below average defender. The fact of the matter is the Royals have six Gold Glove caliber players in Moustakas, Hosmer, Perez, Cain, Escobar and Dyson. We can't afford to add position players who aren't going to be both above-average offensively and defensively, unless they're close to Gold Glove/Silver Slugger caliber.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 07:53 AM) I think Anderson will be lucky to get $5M + incentives based on innings pitched . Rasmus way too much, Romo and LaRoche very speculative as I think both are NL players. But it is probable LaRoche gets $10M+. The thing is, Rasmus remains the only young outfielder on the market who can be bought on a dip...but that doesn't mean he's going to be supercheap, because he had a very solid 2013. His age, more than anything else, works in his favor. I can't believe Rasmus is going to sign for something like $24 million for 3 years when Andrew Freaking Miller is going to make more simply based on 2014. C'mon. A LH SET UP guy is going to go for the same price as Rasmus? I'm not buying it at all. Let's say you're the Royals. Here are your choices for RF/DH: Nelson Cruz, Melky Cabrera, Torii Hunter, Michael Morse and Nick Markakis. Do you at least not seriously consider Rasmus, when all five of those players come with huge warts themselves? I'd have to imagine that signing those players for the White Sox would be even riskier than controlling an outfielder in the prime of his career for the next three seasons, two of them being years when the White Sox will desperately need LH bats and power. http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-colum...cle3503545.html By the way, the Royals are another good match for Brett Anderson and there's even a thought they would be willing to "sell high" on Greg Holland...along with the opposite thought, that they'll add Hochevar to the mix next year and try to make their bullpen even stronger for innings 6-9 so as not to overuse Herrera and Davis. At any rate, there seems to be a decent supply of those "mid tier" starters who would help the Royals bridge the gap to Finnegan/Manaea/Binford/Almonte.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 07:42 AM) Even adding the link from Oct. 24. Setting up the White Sox for the franchise-altering Domonic Brown deal.

It's going to be eerily reminiscent of when they overreached with the House on the Monica Lewinsky affair.

http://news.yahoo.com/how-hillary-clinton-...-075943434.html Why it's exceedingly likely that Hilary Clinton will win in 2016...and nothing that happened last night runs against that momentum, except for the possibility of Booker's win in Colorado serving as a template for "Bill Clintonesque triangulation" all over the US....good luck finding candidates capable of that

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 06:55 AM) for the most part I am with you on this. but this got my head scratching. LaRoche will get his 15 mil. At his age, and with his splits....he could get $10 million, perhaps, but I don't believe he's a $15 million a year player in his mid 30's. Not at 1B/DH.

Someone will give Rasmus $36 million for 3 years because of his youth, ability to play all three outfield spots and "potential." Romo one year at $8-9 million. (If guys like Andrew Miller are getting $20 million plus based on one season...or Gregerson, that's not hard to imagine at all). Anderson's hard to predict...he won't want to sign a long-term deal, so he's going to try to max out a one year deal or a single year with option/s attached. If Jake Peavy's going to get $10 million (plus), then I'll put Anderson at $8.5 million (roughly where Josh Johnson was). That gets you to $29 million. Then LaRoche at $8.5 million for 2 years, for a total of $17 million. (Remember, Gold Glove caliber, etc., that comes with a price even if the White Sox want Abreu to play there the majority of the time). There's $37.5 million.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/dodg...1104-story.html Another Zaidi article......Pakistani raised in Philippines with a family of basically academic freaks, baseball is truly becoming globalized

Let's say they added Rasmus, LaRoche, Brett Anderson and Romo...along with the idea of Rodon joining the team at mid-season. Does anyone believe that's enough to put the White Sox in contention in 2015? We have to face the fact that outside of signing Scherzer, Lester, Sandoval, V-Mart or Hanley Ramirez, there aren't many INDIVIDUAL players who will move the meter until the Sox start winning again. The combination I listed above is going to cost around $37.5-45 million in added payroll, just a guess.

27. Brett Anderson, SP: The best gamble of the 2014 offseason is Anderson, still just 26 years old, still throwing hard from the left side despite myriad injuries. Because he’s coming off back surgery, he’s a bargain worth pursuing, big markets and small, for the significant upside. One of these years, he’s going to throw a full season, and when he does, his teammates will be thrilled they’re wearing the same uniform. from yahoo.com/sports (Jeff Passan, Free Agent Tracker) Of course, that leaves the left-handedness issue again...but if they could somehow trade Danks for Ethier (just an example), that would upgrade LF (although I'm still concerned Ethier is strictly a platoon guy at this stage) and exchange Danks for Anderson, you MIGHT just have something. Sale Quintana Anderson Noesi Bassitt (loser to bullpen)

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 10:19 PM) Sure its possible, just ask the Yanks. If it were up to me, this is how I would go about making the Sox a contender in 2015. Headley and VMart would be great additions and if Toronto signs Melky then the Sox could try for Rasmus. If not Rasmus, the Sox could look into an exchange of bad contracts like Danks for Andre Ethier. Essentially Ethier would add 3.75M to the current payroll which should allow plenty of space for Headley, VMart and a bullpen arm or maybe even two. IMO, this would would be the best way to fill in some holes while not trading away any prized prospects that the Sox have so few of in the first place. Since the Sox have so much room in payroll and a protected first rounder, it makes sense to hit the FA market. Problem is, will JR spend on multiple free agents. History says no but one can hope right? That strategy provides you an opening day rotation of Sale, Quintana, Noesi, Bassitt and Carroll/Beck.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 04:49 PM) Bleacher Reports thinks Ervin Santana would be a good fit for the Sox .http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2253830-projecting-1-impact-signing-every-mlb-team-will-make-this-winter/page/7 But remember that article just says if every team signed 1 free agent who seems the most likely candidate. Yuck. Perfect candidate for regression coming back to the AL in an increasily-difficult division. We'd spend $10-15 million to get, what, 2 more wins (arguably) when we already saw the fallacy of this with Ubaldo Jimenez...Santana's not going to move the meter enough to put us over the top, and he might not even pitch any better than Noesi/Bassitt (I do feel comfortable stating that he would outperform Carroll, though). You're going to get a LOT more bang for you buck when you make bigger upgrades in the LF/DH slots. That's when you look very closely at upgrading the final starting spot, assuming Rodon's looking like a killer. In the final opinion, since we wouldn't be likely to sign Santana for more than one year, it's kind of pointless. We can find more inexpensive "filler" in another throwaway season like the Cubs have consistently been able to find and leverage for trade.

QUOTE (Brian @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 12:06 PM) John Wick is only 90 mins? Not paying $8 plus popcorn/soda for 90 mins. Haha, by your argument, baseball should become twice as popular as basketball with games lasting nearly twice as long...of course, we've reached the point (with MLB) where consumers want "more for their money" but 3 1/2 - 4 hours is TOO much time "wasted" if you have a family. As for me, I'd MUCH rather spend that money on John Wick, than, say....Gone Girl, because GG came in around 2 1/2 hours and could have been cut to 1:45 and it probably would have been a better movie. By trying to include a majority of elements of the book, the overall story got watered down somehow, because they still glossed over many elements of the book that were important/memorable to readers. Regardless of their length, I'd happily spend that money for The Raid 1/2, John Wick and the majority of animated movies (How to Train Your Dragon 2 or even The Book of Life).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 04:21 PM) I can't think of him as an insurance policy because I can't think of him being useful in a backup role. An insurance policy is what you use when something goes wrong, so what do we do if things go right and we find a better starting OF somewhere? Like I said we can't keep him on the bench because he's such a poor fit for that role, he's shown no success with the bat to justify thinking of him as a DH option, basically he's an insurance policy against us failing to find a replacement for him. But Hell, play that guy we just picked up on the waiver wire, he literally cannot be worse. You'd rather have JB Shuck as a DH option than Viciedo? Unless we fill BOTH LF and DH this offseason, Dayan's likely to be given one more year...let's call it the "DeAza/Beckham Effect." In Dick Allen's scenario where we're spending $40-50 million this offseason on FA's, I'd agree that he should be jettisoned. It's just that very few see that (amount of spending) coming, realistically.

Nah, would rather you see John Wick, lol. Or lose 30-40 pounds like Jake G and gauntly haunt SoxTalk. Nightcrawler doesn't have that "event status" movie feel like Gone Girl or Interstellar...or, gasp, Hunger Games.