caulfield12

QUOTE (Charlie Haeger's Knuckles @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 12:40 PM) If he pitches well, this probably punches the ticket for Rienzo and Carroll next season. That'd be something, to get that righthanded power arm balance for the rotation without the Sox diving into the deep end of the free agent market. If you'd like to congratulate him, do so here: https://twitter.com/C_Bass419 Yes, but you would have thought the same with Erik Johnson coming into this season. I'll be absolutely shocked if Bassit posts better numbers for a month than EJ did last September...especially when facing teams that are desperate and hungry for wins like that Tigers' line-up.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 02:25 PM) Viciedo's failure was not hard so see during that 25 homer season -- the 25 HR number was literally the only positive hitting data point he had. It's a hell of a feat to hit 25 homers and still have a below average offensive season, but he did. It absolutely screamed fluke, and when you dug into his plate discipline peripherals, it looked even worse. And yet I'm sure it would be hard to find a lot of people arguing in the 2012-2013 offseason that he should have been traded. Maybe it's there. Yes, there were warning signs. But it's also not like he didn't show some significant progress in the minor leagues in those years, and he looked really dangerous as early as 2010 as a 21 year old up for the first time with Ozzie protecting him with favorable pitching match-ups. There's just no way KW's baby was getting traded away by Hahn at that point. Dumping Keppinger, Paulino and Downs, that's a whole lot different.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 02:17 PM) I've seen Semien & I think he may have some real hitting abilities, but like Rios, maybe mentally he can't get there. I like some of what I have seen though. I wonder if Ravelo & Anderson and maybe Wilkins are pretty similar. I haven't seen any of those guys. There are always going to be mental and mechanical things that can come into play but I think there is a base ability that some guys have and others don't. I'm talking to myself here but caulfield is in this thread, and that's great, because he'll talk to me. Anyway I like turtles still. Just relax, lol. You're thinking way too much, or overthinking this. Clearly, it's been an issue with the White Sox for a generation of prospects. That said, they've always been able to identify guys like a Dye/AJ/Iguchi...Jim Thome when some thought his career was over with the Phils...two MVP-type hitters in Carlos Quentin in 2008 and now Abreu, not to mention Alexei Ramirez. OTOH, all those big-time failures like Borchard, Fields, Anderson and Beckham are a lot to overcome, and Semien struggling mightily in his call-up didn't help matters much. We're going to have to cross our fingers Eaton can stay healthy and that Avisail Garcia can mature into a middle of the order presence he appears to be physically...but with the homers and doubles to go with it.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 12:03 PM) As someone who listened to a ton of Fringe Average Podcasts (RIP), Parks really WAS all over the Cubs nuts. He would bring them up constantly, while Mike Ferrin would be discussing other things. I mean, the Twins have a loaded farm system too and he never spoke of them, other than Buxton. Really sad to not have Parks as a prospects resource anymore. He was really funny and I enjoyed hearing him talk prospects. But as soon as I heard he was going to work for the Cubs, I stared laughing because that was such a perfect fit for him. I'm still not sure how having such a "homer" working for your team helps in any other way other than public relations, like a Scott Merkin. Why would any other organization who's looking to trade for a Cubs' prospect do anything but take what he says with a grain of salt and actually perform a lot more due diligence to compensate for the fact that few prospects can ever live up to such constant hyping and media sensationalism.

We're long past the time of dealing Viciedo. If you'd written this thread in 2012 and challenged everyone that a 23 year old coming of a 25 home run season as a rookie (and fielding better than average) was going to regress completely, and also based on how guys like Cespedes and then Puig were having such huge impacts, it wouldn't have seemed possible that Dayan would be the one huge swing and a miss of all the Cuban hitters signed so far, but he clearly has been. As well as they scouted Alexei and Abreu, they missed something this time around that's hard to pick up on in Serie Nacional video or controlled batting practices and "showcases" for scouts. The other thing that everyone really fell in love with Viciedo was his arm strength. If not for that and his ability to drive the ball to the opposite field without much effort, we'd never have heard of him. Those are two tantalizing aspects that don't overcompensate for the lack of walks, the overswinging, the missing of way too many hittable pitches in the zone, the double play balls and numerous defensive lapses, the difficult hitting RHP and just in general hitting pitchers with great stuff (above 93 MPH) up in the zone. As with Crain and Floyd last year, almost every single player that was on the borderline this year has fallen off to the point where they have zero or negligible trade value, except for Alexei Ramirez, who we can't trade if we actually want to compete before 2017. I suppose they could use their magic 8 ball to know Gillaspie, Noesi and Putnam will regress next year, but all three of those "success stories" are likely to be back in Chicago next season for different reasons.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 08:12 AM) I think any season the White Sox play before Chris Sale clutches his elbow or shoulder, where they are playing out the string with over a month to go, is not a successful season. There's a really good Passan article about the Yu Darvish "tenderness" issue and why they're being so careful with him when there's nothing to play for going down the stretch except holding the #1 overall draft pick...and about examples like Daniel Hudson, where pitchers were rushed back too quickly from TJ.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 11:14 AM) The last prospect that Hawk was obsessed with was C.J. Retherford. He hit .201 in AAA before playing Independent ball the following year. Or Ryan Sweeney, when he looked so good that one spring.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 11:05 AM) I didn't say they are realstic, I'm just using the logic you used to show why it's a ridiculous premise. They are virtually irrelevant yes. They do it for traditions' sake. It's the same reason they keep track of W-L. Ultimately, RBI means nothing other than had ample opportunities to drive people in. Homers are different because a home run is the ultimate form of production and efficiency - there is no other hit in the entire game that guarantees a run than a home run. Ultimately, I want good hitters. A lot of times, guys who hit a lot of home runs are good hitters. Home runs absolutely are not irrelevant. Dunn shouldn't return a lot. He's a mid 30s player in the last month of his contract whose only real utility is his productivity against RHP, and even that is limited to some extent by his contact issues. There's still value there, and they should be able to save some money or get a semi-useful prospect out of the whole deal. I wouldn't expect confidence in Dunn into his mid 30s either, but on a 1-2 year deal, he isn't the worst option. I still don't see him re-signing with the White Sox. I could care less if they re-sign him, but I'd prefer they search for alternatives first. If he's the fat chick at the bar, then I have no problem with the Sox bringing him back. It's never going to be a key to the offseason and I've never even come close to saying anything like that. I was primarily criticizing you for using RBI as a justification for run-production when the correlation between hitters and RBI numbers is derivative of their approach at the plate, who they hit behind, and how many at bats they get. If Gordon Beckham hit behind prime Rickey Henderson and Kenny Lofton at the top of the lineup, and Adam Dunn hit behind Rey Ordonez and Mario Mendoza at the bottom of the lineup, who do you think will get more RBI? But, with 2 outs, a runner on 1B, and down by 2 in the bottom of the 9th, who would you prefer at the plate? NEITHER. A hitter I would be confident in actually putting the ball in play, like a Victor Martinez.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 10:09 AM) Micah was speculated to go to the outfield due to the log jam in the MI, his under average defense at second and yes his speed could help him become a solid outfielder if he can get good reads and jumps which he's plenty young enough to learn. Take a look at Viciedo and DeAza, they are a joke out there. I see no reason why Micah could not be better than both with a little time and patience for him to learn LF. His weak arm could hurt the Sox more at 2B than LF as its going to be used more often at 2B and be a weakness on DP's as well. Moving Micah to the outfield makes too much sense. I HIGHLY doubt Micah Johnson's going to put up better defensive metrics than DeAza for at least a couple of seasons. Johnson to LF is highly unlikely.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 10:42 AM) So if Adam Dunn hit .500/.650/.900 with 60 home runs, but no one got on base in front of him and he only have 60 RBIs, you would say he is not a run producer. That is the logic you are using when using RBI to define "run-producer." If you had the preseason odds for who was more likely to win the World Series and the choices were Padres, Cubs, or Twins, your answer would be "who gives a s***, it isn't going to happen so why bother?" I mean, we could be talking like 100:1 versus 150:1 versus 200:1 and no matter how you slice it, none of them are likely. The answer will be evident this off-season...the market forces will reward Sandoval and scoff at Dunn. Sure, if Dunn's willing to play another year for a Justin Morneau-type contract, he becomes a bit more interesting. Does anyone believe he's going to sign that deal with the Sox after struggling here for 4 disappointing seasons? WHY?

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 10:44 AM) I'm not saying Dunn is valuable. He isn't terribly valuable. Sandoval, however, would be less valuable. I'd rather give Andy Wilkins a chance than sign a guy with a .755 OPS. If the White Sox thought Wilkins' hit tool could actually play at the next level, they already would have parted ways with Dunn a LONG time ago. His not being promoted despite the hottest hitting streak in the minors (and Charlotte's homer frenzy in general) should tell you everything you need to know. There's clearly some flaw or hole in his offensive game/swing/approach that MLB advanced scouts are already excitedly waiting to exploit.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 10:42 AM) So if Adam Dunn hit .500/.650/.900 with 60 home runs, but no one got on base in front of him and he only have 60 RBIs, you would say he is not a run producer. That is the logic you are using when using RBI to define "run-producer." Yes, because those numbers are so realistic for Dunn. Why even continue to count RBI's or batting average with RISP? They're irrelevant, right? Because it's "lucky/random" from season to season? Why even care about homers at USCF (for someone like Conor Gillaspie)? We only need to track SLG and OBP, yes? Go ahead and be Rick Hahn and sell/spin the return of Adam Dunn to the White Sox when nobody else in baseball wants him and he's not even sure about playing himself. I don't hate him irrationally, but I have ZERO confidence in Dunn being the solution at DH going forward in his mid 30's. Now if you said we would have Shields, Martin, Melky Cabrera and a closer, I could care less about Dunn coming back. But if you're going to label bringing him back as one of the KEY off-seasons moves for the White Sox, the fanbase is going to have a huge laugh about that and respond with even more malaise/apathy.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 10:33 AM) Right, huge need for a DH bat, which really ought to be somebody who at the very least outhits Dunn this year. With Gillaspie able to play 3B/1B and Semien able to play 2B/3B/LF, the Sox have the luxury of being able to pursue the two best hitters they can get, regardless of position, as long as at least one of the two can play a position other than DH/1B. If the two best hitters they can get aren't better than Dunn, then just bring Dunn back. Gillaspie at 3B and Dunn at DH >> Gillaspie at DH and Sandoval at 3B, at least from an offensive standpoint. Factor in that Sandoval is probably going to cost more than Dunn and it doesn't really make sense. This is what you have to keep in mind if you want to move Gillaspie from 3B to DH: .812 is a fantastic OPS for a 3B. .812 is a decent OPS for a DH. Find somebody who will put up an OPS better than .812. If that guy happens to be a better 3B than Gillaspie, then fine, move Gillaspie to DH, but moving Gillaspie to DH so you can make room for a .755 OPS guy at 3B is counterproductive. If Dunn is as valuable as his metrics would say in 2012/13/14, why has it been so impossible for Hahn to trade him? And has Adam been a run-producing bat this year? Not really. He barely has 50 RBI's, for someone paid quite handsomely to produce them. If you had the preseason 2015 odds for who's the most likely to finish in the Top 10 MVP voting in the AL, would it be Gillaspie, Sandoval or Dunn with the best odds? I just think a LOT of people are nervous about him replicating those same numbers....they can use LD percentages and "unlucky" his doubles haven't turned into more homers or BABIP, but it's still a big unknown. OTOH, it really blocks Matt Davidson to acquire Ramirez/Sandoval, and Hahn's unlikely to do that.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 10:22 AM) While we're hijacking threads....Justin Morneau was placed on waivers then claimed by the Brewers but a deal wasn't done. If they're open to trading him in the offseason, which they seemingly would be, I'd hope the Sox do what they can to get him to the South Side. He seems to be back to form to an extent just sans the big power. .343/.389/.540 vs RHP this year and for those who wanna bring up playing in Colorado, he's hitting .325/.376/.500 on the road this year. He's also got a pretty friendly contract. 6.75M next year and a 9M option for 2016. Gimme Morneau, upgrade LF and call it day offensively. But who are we realistically willing to give up for him? Alexei Ramirez, if Tulo's traded? Therein lies the problem...for example, would you be willing to give up Anderson or Montas or Danish for him when you could sign someone in the free agent market without giving up that kind of talent?

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 10:16 AM) Why are we discussing acquiring infielders? That ranks 7th on the Sox priority list behind bullpen, starting pitching, outfielder, catcher, DH and hot dog vendor. Here is the current 2015 IF depth chart: 1B: Abreu, Gillaspie 2B: Sanchez, Semien SS: Ramirez, Semien 3B: Gillaspie, Semien There is no need there. Unless 1-2 of the aforementioned guys are sent out in a trade for a SP or LF, then there aren't going to be any IF acquisitions. (Also, not meaning to short Semien in any way. He could very well win the 2B job, and even if he doesn't, I expect he would get plenty of starts at 2B/3B.) Because we have a HUGE need for a DH bat as well, so you can see rotating players in and out...Sandoval, Hanley Ramirez with his recent injury track record would be another prime example, Headley or Conor, etc. Pablo Sandoval has finished 7th in an MVP vote, won a World Series MVP and made 2 All-Star teams. But it's crazy to think of him as more of an MVP-caliber player than Chase Headley? C'mon.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 10:07 AM) No, why would we assume he can play Cf when he's been a 2b? Corner OF is a step up in difficulty, why on Earth would we push him to CF? We have at least 1 anyway. I was putting up the comparison of Semien going to LF with Alcantara from 2B to CF with the Cubs...Semien DEFINITELY won't be in CF, unless Adam Eaton gets injured yet again.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 10:08 AM) So when someone mentioned Headley and I just said that he'd play 3B instead of DH over Gillaspie because he's a better defensive player, we get Caulfield mentioning that Sandoval is an MVP caliber player. This has gone full blown crazy. Sandoval: .285/.326/.429, .328 wOBA, 115 wRC+ - that's an MVP caliber player? No. He's legitimately had 2 seasons where he put up All-Star level numbers, and that's it. Jose Abreu is putting up MVP caliber numbers this year. Sandoval has never really gotten close to those numbers. Fine, experienced post-season/World Series player who at least has that type of proven, run-producing offensive ability, compared to Chase Headley at this point in his career. We could have a poll, who would you rather have, Chase Headley at $30 million for 3 years or Pablo Sandoval at, let's say, $70 million for four seasons, and who do you think would win in a landslide? Headley's only had one really good offensive season in the last 3-4, Sandoval's been MUCH more consistent over that time.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 09:58 AM) You've just run into my problem with most of the moves that people have suggested in the free agent market - they're high-cost, marginal improvements. Upgrade at 3b? Great. High-cost, marginal improvement. Upgrade rotation? High-cost, Marginal improvement. Upgrade at catcher? High cost, marginal improvement. Right now we've got a corner OF slot where it seems like we can make more than a marginal improvement, but that's it, and there's a chance Semien might be moved to one of those spots too. Which offensively in 2015, MIGHT be a marginal improvement over DeAza/Viciedo...and Semien's defense is a complete unknown out there as well. Can we just assume he'll play CFer about as well as Alcantara has for the Cubs? Well, he can't hit in the 220's with limited power like Arismendy and hold down LF because it's not like we have the equivalent of Baez/Bryant/Soler arriving on the scene in the power department. Then you look at the #1 LFer available, Melky Cabrera, giving him more money than Jose Abreu and watching it blow up in your face is a ticket to disaster for Rick Hahn. You could just as easily substitute the name Colby Rasmus there as well. Easier said than done finding this year's Seth Smith or Willingham's offensive production the first year he came to the Twins. Justin Morneau in Colorado or Victor Martinez at his advanced age in that pitcher's park known as Comerica, etc.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 09:52 AM) While the Sox magically add nothing, right? I'm going with PTAC's take on things until proven otherwise. The Cubs are going to be under HUGE pressure to bring in a top-line starting pitcher. We'll undoubtedly have a new LFer, but expecting the equivalent of Shields, Russell Martin, Melky Cabrera and an established/veteran closer in one offseason is just asking for tons of disappointment if you're a White Sox fan and have watched free agent markets come and go over the years. The fact of the matter is THIS is the offseason to do it, as we SHOULDN'T have that protected first round draft pick again. Have to strike now, rather than extending the window for competing (and risking a Sale injury) out another year into the uncertain future.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 09:49 AM) Headley would play 3B, Gillaspie would DH. Headley is better defensive player than Gillaspie. That's just a marginal improvement over two positions, and when you consider the allocation of resources (let's say $30 million minimum for Headley, if not $40-50), it doesn't make a whole lotta sense. Especially when a lot of posters are already expecting a down/correction year from Conor, and we just don't know the effect of being a full-time DH would have on him or any younger player. If you're going to do that, you should really double down and spend another $20-30 million on an MVP caliber player in Sandoval (or even Hanley Ramirez) and try to get him straightened out offensively when paired with the strength and conditioning guys/Hermie. Or I'd rather spend the money you're spending on Headley for Billy Butler at DH, because I tend to think he's a much better bet for the next three seasons at USCF putting up some monster years. Chase at this point in his career just isn't a reliable middle-of-the-order hitter. As it stands right now, we don't have anyone that you can confidently put there with Abreu, not even Avisail.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 08:51 AM) Echo those sentiments. Sale, Q, and Abreu have all proven it where as the Cubs really only have one guy who has proven it that is part of that young core. Sure, but the big picture also magically changes again (in that 2015-18 window) when you add Scherzer/Shields/Lester to Rizzo, Castro, Arrieta, Rondon and all their other prospects.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 08:36 AM) Headley would definitely play 3B over Gillaspie. I don't know that they will look towards the free agent market. The last two traditional free agents (6+ years of service time, contract expired) the Sox have brought in to be full time players on offense were Adam Dunn and Jeff Keppinger. Even when guys were available, they've stayed away from that route. Instead, they've brought players in via waivers and trade. I don't see why that would change. Why? Conor's had a Top 30-40 (all of MLB) OPS (despite the lack of homers) for pretty much the entire season. What about Headley says he's going to rebound playing next year in the AL? Certainly not his statistics in NY, where he should be putting up at least a 750ish OPS. It makes no sense to bring in a guy that's going to get $8-10 million per year and already around that magical 30 year old mark where players now are declining without the PEDS to further their careers. Victor Martinez is one of the few exceptions that comes to mind.

If anything, the complaint should be too many middle/utility infielders in 1-2 above average tools but not the overall package....Leury Garcia, Saladino, Semien, Sanchez, Micah Johnson...and clearly not enough high impact bats. Every organization has 2-3 AAAA/filler guys like Wilkins and Brad Eldred and Dan Black who wouldn't last more than a week or two in the big leagues before getting exposed.

QUOTE (Brian @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 04:39 AM) That Price/Smyly deal has been pretty lateral outside of TB shedding cash. I picked up Smyly as soon as the deal was made and have been reaping the benefits. Can't even say lateral because of the negative impact on their outfield defense, forcing Hunter and JD Martinez to cover even more ground when they're both below average outfielders at this point, and Rajai's not exactly much to brag about, either.

To me, on a championship team, Quintana's more of a 3. We can argue this all day and into next week. We know his positives and negatives inside and out. He's not a guy you expect to have 10+ K's or shut down the opposition completely. The trouble with Quintana is how many 2 out runs he's surrendered this year, and how many times he's fallen apart when there were defensive lapses behind him. In 2012, by and large, he was able to persevere and pitch through those situations. He had that moxie/confidence that's lacking just a little bit in 2013 and 2014. He's very good, but I wouldn't trade 3 Top 100 prospects for him, either. Not unless I had two topflight guys in front of him and enough of a back-end that the only thing missing from the rotation was a 3. It's like the situation with the White Sox, as it's being projected currently. Rodon SHOULD be at least a 2, if not a 1...Sale/Rodon/Quintana is a very good start, and a very fair contract for the value he brings to the table.