caulfield12

Merkin/Rongey in rain delay...to summarize Sox will decide on Sale after meetings on Friday and/if the MRI comes up clean. KW is deferring to Ventura and the coaching staff, hasn't e-mailed anyone in the media since last FRI in DET. Ventura seems to be the one who is most adamant about Sale NOT starting and being in the pen this year. Obviously, RV doesn't want to be responsible for a career-threatening injury when Sale just doesn't have enough strength built up in the past 2-3 seasons...hasn't pitched 100+ innings, etc. Cooper and Sale are more on the side of him starting, and of course Cooper's going to support what Chris wants as his position coach. Used the examples of Bard and Feliz being backed off and/or put back in the pen this year as well. Everyone is confused and wondering why they announced that the move to the bullpen was "permanent" last Friday but now there's backtracking again. Ventura either speaks directly about an issue or refuses to speak entirely, so that's leading to part of the confusion. KW has basically said his plan was to bring Sale up to the big league club quickly as a member of the bullpen, then put him in the rotation when Mark Buehrle left (assuming he had the foresight to know they weren't going to keep Buehrle back in mid 2010 when the team was in 1st place).

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 9, 2012 -> 04:32 PM) The only place any "drama" exists is on the board and in your head. It's not like people on the street are like, "the Sox are f***ing Chris Sale." Most people don't get angry over conjecture and speculation. Yea, I'm personally responsible for 45 pages of posts and numerous threads about this situation. Nobody else is concerned or speculating, lol. In fact, I keep saying "the Sox are f***ing Chris Sale" over and over again. Wait. Where in any thread ever written at SoxTalk have I used those words?

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ May 9, 2012 -> 04:43 PM) You got it. I think even if we moved Morel we have other options at 3B. I am guessing he isn't going anywhere though other than maybe a platoon role Ummm...not really. Our current options at 3B are: Lillibridge Escobar Kuhn McPherson None of those are good options. Only Lillibridge if he was hitting like last season, but he's still more of a platoon/role player and there are a bunch of questions about his defense on the infield, especially on the left side.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ May 9, 2012 -> 05:55 PM) 私は、フィールドにもっとプレイしてバットでより多くを取得したい I think this might be the Japanese translation to I want to play more and get more at bats I don't see the problem does anyone else? No, that's "I love sex, but that doesn't mean I'm easy."

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 9, 2012 -> 04:10 PM) It was funny, in that thread, no one did provide a quote that fit what I asked for - until I did. And even then, everyone forgot that I never said it didn't happen - I said I hadn't seen it. I was questioning the leap being made, seemingly without evidence, since no one provided it. This is what this is all about - the yell and scream crowd. You did it as a perfect example here. So did the people with the OMG THEY ARE FUKEING SALE AROUND WHAT THE HELL ARE THE DOING THEY HAVE NO PLAN OMG WTF BBQ reactions about Sale going to the pen. Have whatever opinion you'd like, but if you make a statement that makes an unfounded leap, then you will gete called on it. That's one of the great things about this board. I knew I'd get called out about Sale, so I just kept asking for proof of inconsistency. I finally found it myself. What you did was the opposite - you made the leap without evidence, and haven't been able to find any evidence the leap has any foundation in reality. Because you kept changing the target, first it was where he wouldn't be starting for the remainder of the year, then where it was permanent, that under no possible circumstances ever would Sale ever start again, then it was it had to be a "direct quote" from Ventura/KW/Cooper, and not the writer's understanding or characterization of what those various people said...you were making a leap contrary to an overwhelming (albeit contradictory) body of evidence over the first 2-3 days of this that they weren't messing around with Sale. So then I'll ask you to define what exactly is "messing around with a player" in your idea. Give me an example of where a team DID mess with a player and the fanbase/s had a right to be critical or upset, whereas we don't right now have any right to be concerned. The foundation is based on every single quote from Chris Sale saying that HE wants to start...and contradictory quotes from every single other person involved in this about when or if that will actually happen.

Why didn't they just do this a week ago and avoid all the needless drama? They simply could have skipped one of his starts (arguing it was part of their plan all along to skip a start here or there, especially around offdays and in order to keep his final innings pitched total for the season down to 120-140ish) and it would have been a "small" story and there would have been SOME speculation, but not nearly to this extent.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:42 PM) Including you... except you turned it into the most extreme, controversy-creating possibility there is. That is why people pounded you for it. Do you not see that? But didn't you just in the Sale thread take 3-4 counter-examples that ran contrary to what you were arguing and refuse to admit them as evidence? So now if I'm getting pounded for something, the "group think" is right, but if a number of posters in that thread are disagreeing with you, you still feel you're right and entitled to your opinion, correct? Do you not see why many on the board are upset, without needing confirmation from Chris Rongey that therefore validates their right to be upset or confused?

That's like saying the Big 10 reporters didn't have a right to ask Bobby Knight why he threw a chair onto the floor...maybe LESS of a right since the player or coach's action in this case didn't affect the course of action in the game, but Maybe the better analogy is someone like Tiger Woods who is constantly being brought to task for cursing or throwing clubs. You can guarantee he is ALWAYS asked those questions after a round and usually has a similar response to Wood. Doesn't mean the reporters aren't going to mention it. And there's definitely something of a double standard at play, compared to someone like Zambrano or Milton Bradley. And then sometimes, there are players like Bradley that the media knows are more emotionally fragile and that asking a question like that can be enough to create a meltdown/emotional scene and lead to headlines...where the reporter is intentionally baiting the athlete and trying to create a story. It's definitely a fine line between reporting the story and making/being the story, see Mariotti or Cowley, for example.

What happened to that vaunted Braves' offense? Guess good pitching always wins out over hitting that has feasted mostly on average pitching so far this year.

Fine, then why did Gonzales even bother to report this? Why is it noteworthy enough to include in a column? How is it significant? Until someone can show the actual quotes in Japanese, then I can sit here and argue that Mark Gonzales knows more what's going on in that clubhouse than we do and maybe there is an issue there, who knows? Everyone is simply commenting on the English translation of what was said. It might have been 3-5 minutes of conversation boiled down to a one-sentence English translation. It might have been something perfectly innocuous, that's also true. "Fukudome, if possible, would like to play more, if the opportunities are made available to him by the manager, whose line-up decision-making process has to be respected." Okay...lol.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:55 PM) Judging by last night, he's going fastball/slider and not throwing the change-up. I agree with the innings thing over the course of the year...it was more the next few weeks where it seems they're possibly risking it. Any possiblity that this is a stress fracture type thing waiting to happen, as that makes more sense than elbow ligaments based on how it's being treated. Back to PTAC talk again, haha. All we ever hear as "lay people" is that the slider puts a tremendous amount of torque on the elbow, and the example of Liriano is always raised here. One would THINK throwing change-ups would be less stressful than sliders on the elbow, yes? Does throwing 10-15 fastballs at 96-99 MPH put the same amount of stress as 40-50 at 92-94? If you look at Liriano, the thing that's very clear is that even after the TJ surgery, which has almost become a "stuff strengthener/improver" a year or year and a half after a pitcher returns from this particular surgery...Liriano is definitely a counter-example there. He's never come close to having the same slider as in 2006. With a pitcher with Chris Sales' frame, is it the mechanics that are causing more stress? His arm angle? His body density or lack of muscle? Does being thin like a Randy Johnson cause more wear and tear than someone built like Mark Prior or Kerry Wood? How realistic is it that Sales' mechanics could be changed/improved/adapted so that post TJ surgery he could pitch for a long period of time without any additional problems while simultaneously keeping his same stuff, deception and movement or pitch effects (whatever you want to call it) when he throws the ball?

Randy Johnson had a very thin frame too, did he ever have a major surgery? I don't recall that happening early in his career, if at all. OTOH, CJ Wilson blew out his elbow after three seasons in the minors with a moderate minor league starting. But he was able later in life to jump from reliever's innings up to 200+ innings, seemingly without any trouble. He also went through bone spurs as a reliever, missed about 6 weeks and then returned the following season with no adverse repercussions. In the end, this is a messageboard. Isn't the point that everyone has a right to an opinion? Nobody said they're "smarter" than the White Sox or have more information...but to say the way they're handling this is beyond our questioning is not realistic, either. Otherwise, not a single thread would exist here. It should be just a website that reposts information from Rongey, Scott Merkin, chisox.com, Brooks Boyer on marketing/promotions, etc. To say we don't have enough information to have an informed opinion, then I'm sure you could go back and take every major trade or acquisition KW has made the last 3 years and could spin it in a way that makes it defensible. Does that matter if the results are bad every time, even if the decision-making can be defended as sound? If a "general trend" emerges and the storyline becomes "what the heck are the White Sox doing, they SEEM like they don't have a clue" it really doesn't matter in the end, does it? Perception is more important than reality. We can observe a general feeling of apathy or sentiment that many fans simply aren't going to go out to the ballpark again and spend their hard-earned dollars until the organization produces some results on the field of play.

Guess Dave Duncan didn't matter so much after all. I remember when Marquis, Anthony Reyes and Jaime Garcia were the pitchers that looked the best on that team, other than Carpenter.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 9, 2012 -> 08:19 AM) Sale himself said it was not in the cards this year to continue starting. Because Ventura and perhaps Cooper or Herm Schneider convinced Chris it was the best thing for his future, even if it wasn't what he wanted. So he was supposed to say what, that he refused to go to the pen and was going to file a grievance with the player's union?

QUOTE (fathom @ May 9, 2012 -> 08:15 AM) Hawk sure seemed to think it was permanent with his comment about how it's more difficult to find a good closer than a starter. Just watch. Next time he starts, all the Billy Wagner, Jr., talk from Harrelson will be out the window again and he'll be the second coming of Randy Johnson, Lester, Sabathia and CJ Wilson all rolled into one bundle of dominance to anchor our rotation for the next decade. Harrelson should know better how easy it has been for the White Sox to find closers ever since the 1980's. It's the back end starters and rotation depth which have always been the main concerns and the line of demarcation between contention and also-ran status most of those years.

There was a point where Ventura said that Sale would be in the pen for the rest of this season, but then he backed off of those comments again in the last couple of days. "I enjoyed starting," Sale said. "I thought the transition was going well. I guess we'll see." Sale, who was named the White Sox’ closer Friday because he had been experiencing discomfort in his left elbow — raising concerns about the rigors of starting on his arm — still wants badly to start. And he might get another shot this season, even though manager Robin Ventura had said his move to the bullpen would be for the rest of the season. http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...e-to-start.html But posters on SoxTalk decided that must be true, so it was. Now they are saying it isn't permanent, and posters are all upset about the inconsistency. The inconsistency only existed in the heads of people here! We didn't decide. It's what the manager SAID!!! And now 2-3 days later, they're changing their tune again. That's why people are getting upset. Cooper is saying one thing, Ventura another, Sale consistently has been saying he wants to keep starting.

Okay...well, since they were also defining what players were and weren't under the draft rules versus eligibility for signing as an international free agent, I wasn't sure exactly what to call it.

Not to mention Chicago Hope. Never would have thought Peter Berg would be directing big-budget movies like Battleship all these years later.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ May 9, 2012 -> 06:12 AM) That's hilarious. You could also have a special "deep" segment where banned posters can have their say. Now that I think about it, there should also be a special "Braves' stupefylingly-amazing hitting progress due 100% to the exhaustive and incessant tinkering and soft toss drills of Greg Walker" of the Week Section, too. But I have my doubts Richie Allen will agree to appear in the segment. FWIW, more of the Braves' hitters are crediting assistant hitting coach Scott "Scooter" Fletcher with their hitting success this season, rather than the formerly-esteemed Mr. Walker.

CJ Wilson 2001 137 IP 2002 136 IP 2003 123 IP 2004 DNP (out for entire season, TJ surgery performed by Dr. Lewis Yocum) 2005 106 IP 2006 59 IP 2007 68 IP 2008 46 IP (http://www.lonestarball.com/2008/8/11/591405/cj-out-for-the-yr), Wilson misses the final six plus weeks of season for bone chips/bone spur surgery 2009 74 IP 2010 204 IP 2011 223 IP PTAC will enjoy this amateur Dr. James Andrews-ish medical analysis of Wilson's future when he came down with bone chips in the elbow in 2008 http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/1/31/7434...-injury-circums

http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie-talk/p...-163438080.html Why the Navy turned down THE AVENGERS but worked with BATTLESHIP...something to do with SHIELD/Nick Fury/The nebulous "Council" and the movie not being realistic enough (but apparently the alien invasion in BATTLESHIP is spot-on) Kind of funny...

Discussion by Passan of the pro's and con's of keeping Josh Hamilton, and off-the-record comments from others around baseball about the unique Hamilton contract negotiations http://sports.yahoo.com/news/josh-hamilton...s94I6yDN445nYcB

That's all fine and good, but isn't the risk even greater you fall out of the playoff hunt in the middle months of the season because you don't have a strong enough 5th starter...or that you're tempted to put him back in the rotation too quickly again as a result of the team falling further and further behind? Isn't 170 IP a bit too ambitious? Seems like 150 would be the more likely goal...but NOBODY knows what is going on or what goals the White Sox had in mind before the season started, let alone what their plan is for next week. If Stults and Humber get lit up Saturday and Sunday, there's going to be even more pressure mounting to bring him right back or risk the season being consigned to irrelevance.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,5373229.story For now, Humber will be moved back to get some additional rest and Stults will start Saturday against the Royals at home. Humber, Sunday. So it's Peavy, Floyd (extra day of rest), Stults (normal rest), Humber (extra day of rest), Danks (Monday vs. Detroit, extra day of rest) Sale was experiencing soreness in his arm, but as Sale admitted Saturday, he thought it was just normal soreness from his move to a starter. "Like I said, it's just tender. It doesn't hurt when I throw. It's tender to touch and it takes a little bit to get loosened up," Sale said. "I thought it was just soreness. It was just sore to me and doesn't hurt or anything. "They thought it might trickle into something else. I didn't see that at all. I just saw it as typical soreness after throwing. Like I said, those guys know what they are doing. They've been there and done that. You have to listen to them." No MRI was done on Sale's elbow, and Sale doesn't believe his unique pitching style or mechanics have anything to do with the soreness. He has been pitching the same way since college. A decision also was made that a trip to the disabled list was not needed. It was simply about managing Sale's workload, which the White Sox believe is easier to do with him coming out of the bullpen. "Obviously, you are out there and you want to put 100 percent into every pitch because the one pitch you take a little off, it might be the pitch to come up and bite you," Sale said. "I guess putting 100 percent into 10 to 20 pitches is where I need to be for right now instead of 120 pitches." "There were a lot of people discussing it, so it's not like we were winging it," Ventura said. "There was all this discussion and I'm sure that [disabled list possibility] is probably still out there as far as in discussing it to see if that would be the best way to do it. The biggest issue is we're trying to think of him first instead of us." Scott Merkin, chisox.com/mlb.com

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...asses-test.html Gordon Beckham diagnosis by Manto...good read