caulfield12

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:04 PM) We've loaded up on C/C+ prospects. That really can't move a system that much, really at all. The kid we got from the Padres has all the ability in the world to be a B+ or better, just like Molina. You start the Futures Game, that means everyone is baseball is aware of your existence.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:03 PM) It serves no good purpose to let anyone know what the plan is. Hey, isn't that what Mao and Stalin said...?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:00 PM) The all-mighty AA gave him third round money. He has to be good. Knew that one was coming, lol. Where's j4l with his take today, watching NFL or sleeping off the weekend still? I sincerely hope we can't still be the worst MLB farm system in the game at this point. Let's hope we can progress to 25th-27th.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:56 PM) Then why didn't the Sox draft him in the 3rd or 4th round? Because KW didn't have any more kids available (at least with the same family name)....? Sorry, bad joke. Poor KW

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:46 PM) You are really stretching that comparison. Apparently Danks wasn't valued as much as we must have thought either and he got $13M a year to stay. I think what I am most upset about is the complete lack of firm and understandeable direction and the willingness to overlook past fiascos made by our GM. And only $8 million this year. It's not until the future forward years the numbers really pick up, when his limited NTC kicks in correspondingly. We're still in "win now/trade in 2013" mode with Danks, in all likelihood. There's flexibility to go either way depending on 2012 results and attendance figures.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:51 PM) Drop the draft pick rankings stuff. Both were guys who went way over slots in the later rounds. Jaye was paid like a third rounder. You would have expected one of the friendly "White Sox Family" draft picks to have made an impact by now, based on their draft positions and bonuses, haha. We've had some comical ones with the kids of KW, Ozzie, Shaffer, someone's daughter, I forget who it was?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:48 PM) We're at about $97 million in commitments, then another $6 million or so in league-minimum guys to fill out the roster, then there's a $4 million buyout for Peavy at the end of the year. So we're to that mythical $20 million cut that many insiders projected, based on disappointing box office returns. And you have the mystery numbers for Jake Peavy coming back in 2010/11 in the form of insurance subsidies/write-offs. And we still have Crain, Ohman, Thornton, Floyd and possibly AJ that could all go in the next 3-4 months...and Konerko if they go off the deep end. Peavy getting traded would mean he's nearly in 2007 form, and that puts us right back in the playoff hunt, but saving that $4 million buyout would be a nice bonus that could be invested elsewhere.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:42 PM) If you would have read what I posted, I'm not mad at this particular trade, but some are going to make these "prospects" out to be far more than they really are. For Quentin, I'm not upset they traded him, it was very obvious it would happen. I think the return is like this return. Nothing. I believe he should be worth a little more than that. Both of the guys from the Padres could impact our team as early as ST, particularly Hernandez. And the other one was 2-3 in the Jays' system the previous year, so it's not like the guy is chopped liver...all things considered, the return for Quentin was much better, and the arguments were probably about equivalent for dumping both of them without any return by not offering arbitration. If you could get the same type of return for Will Ohman, wouldn't you do it? Now, if we traded Crain and Thornton and received nothing back, it would be a shocker. Still, Matty's lost a lot of shine from his star because of 2011, his age, concerns about a fall-off by a tick or two in his stuff...his quasi-closer salary, etc. However, with no FA lefties better than the likes of Darren Oliver and Arthur Rhodes, KW controls a very valuable market if he chooses to sell off Matt to the highest bidder out there, like the Yankees (potentially).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:41 PM) The one good thing about this kind of deal, targeting guys who have issues or are really low in an organization, is that just as the Sox can't project them very well...neither can the team giving the players up. Sometimes, that's how you get a real steal: you target a guy who is low enough that even the team which currently holds him doesn't know what they have. See Liriano, Francisco for an example...Nathan and Bonser were a lot more polished at the time and seemed the primary targets.

A five way deal could get us a Pujols or Hanley Ramirez for sure. It always works for annoying callers during the post-game show. Or let's just package a random 10-12 of these guys with Dunn/Rios and some team out there would be foolish not to take TEN players back, right?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 11:40 AM) The last 3 big guys to sign in this sort of pattern out of Cuba (Alexei, Viciedo, Chapman) signed contracts that were basically "rookie" contracts, where the team commits x number of dollars, but then has control of that player until they would normally become free agents. So, the team would get 6-7 years of control of the player once he gets to the big leagues. A team could always write the deal to allow them to become a FA earlier, but the recent trend has been against that. That's what the Yankees did with Contreras's original deal; the team was required to cut him loose after the deal ended regardless of accumulated service time. That has not been the case with these last guys. So, if a team signed him, kept him in the minors for 1.5 years, called him up mid-2013, they'd have him under control until ~2019 assuming they offered him arbitration every year. Are his salary raises in years 4-6 based on his contract numbers preceding it (not being able to cut more than 15%, etc.) or based on a statistical formula for what guys all around baseball SHOULD be making in those years, such as Danks/Quentin/Crede/Jenks, etc., when they were with the Sox and going back and forth with just one year deals and no long-term extensions? What would/could we predict Viciedo's 2014 salary at? It can't be based on the increase from his small (relatively) salary next year...?

We also gave up Jose Valentin, Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee for essentially nothing as well. Pods and Vizcaino...essentially, it's more important what they do with all the money they are saving BY NOT PAYING Quentin, Buehrle, Frasor, Teahen, Edwin Jackson, Santos, Vizquel, Pena, Castro, and potentially Thornton/Ohman, Crain, AJ, and Floyd. Cespedes, whoever it is, this year or next.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:23 PM) Well, we can then add De Aza, Viciedo, Reed, Axelrod, Flowers, and maybe 1 more bullpen guy like Infante or just give up on Stewart as a starter and put him there. Maybe Santiago thrown in as well if we can clear a spot for a LHP in the bullpen. We could use a backup IF. You don't think that Lillibridge, Oswaldo Martinez, Tyler Kuhn or Escobar could fill that role? Or you want a more experienced/seasoned guy? In other words, we essentially have spent $700,000 more on last year's draft...another way to look at it. If you add that $700,000 investment, what would that make the Sox total for 2011 signees that are now in the system?

Phil Rogers was already ripping on the idea that the Padres would get rid of a LHP (Hernandez) who actually threw 92-95 MPH with steady/reliable control in today's Tribune. Rightfully...pins the future of the KW regime on the 2012-2013 offensive output of Viciedo, Rios, Dunn and Beckham.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 11:10 PM) It's bizarre to me that competing in 2012 is so important. The goal is sustained excellence. Even if our best SS prospect (Saladino) is close to being a major league regular, he won't make much of an impact until 2013 at the earliest. You have Ramirez signed for the next 4 years, ages 31-32-33-34 in his contract. Essentially, according to most here, the only two players who are "trustworthy" offensively are Konerko and Ramirez, and Paulie's due for a decline at some point, yes? Other than that, the surest thing in the current projected line-up is Viciedo, unless you count DeAza. AJ will be AJ, which is about major league average if you consider all aspects of his game. So that leaves the building to occur around Morel, Beckham, Flowers (maybe), Lillibridge, DeAza, Rios and Dunn (the last 2 due to their contracts being as immovable as the iceberg than sank the Titanic). Of that aforementioned list of 7 hitters, are there any that you (currently) believe would be connected with the term "sustained" excellence? If you start over from scratch around a young starting rotation and youthful bullpen, you're going to have to hit every single position player acquisition, FA/international signing and June 1st round draft pick right on the head...and almost all of them to hit the majors in a 1-2 year "wave" because if it's just 1-2-3 players per year, by the time they're peaking in years 4-6 of their careers, they're all becoming expensive at the same time and you're only buying yourself that 2-3 year window (realistically) when they're all making maximum contributions and affordable simultaneously. With your theory, only Sale, Molina, Addison Reed (and not even Reed, although there has to be a closer and Reed on the cheap makes 10X more sense than Thornton/Crain/Frasor, etc.) are not to be traded, and from the position players, you're basically asking to get rid of them all, including Viciedo. You haven't said much on the Konerko front, but one would have to assumed that Paul Konerko and forward-looking sustained excellence is a bit of an oxymoron.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/de...ntin-white-sox/ Dick, you're really not going to give up, lol. I think if you took ANY GM in baseball who had an 11 year track record with one team, you could find 25+ dubious transactions, like the Berry/Barry one, Wells/Fogg/Lowe for Ritchie, Durham for Adkins, etc. We're just going to have to deal with him (KW) for at least another two years, so we might as well embrace that fact and come to terms with it fully.

http://local.sandiego.com/sports/padres-se...n-trades-rumors Of course, there are some key differences with the Sox, Padres and other teams. We haven't shown a willingness to go through 3-5 years of losing/late 80's and 90's "these kids can play" seasons with long-range development as the strategic plan. We haven't been able to pile up high draft picks, nor have we shown a "concerted willingness" to spend much internationally (beyond Viciedo) and on the June draft. However, we clearly have the ability to post a payroll between $100-130 million, compared to other teams like the Pirates, Royals, Padres, Indians, Blue Jays, Rays, A's, etc., that don't have the organizational/front office resources to jack up their spending. Just thought it was a good "flip side" read to the tenor of most posts (including many of mine!) the last 2-3 seasons of "malaise ball." Now we're oscillating between "complete rebuild" and "rebuilding on the fly" camps. If nothing else, some of us (obviously not Milkman, J4L or Fathom) are starting to buy into the Kool Aid that we can be competitive in 2012, while others remain rightfully a bit skeptical or even cynical where it comes to KW.

Castro, 23, went 7-8 with a 5.63 earned run average in 22 starts between Double-A San Antonio and Triple-A Tucson last season. Going into the 2011 season, Castro was considered one of the top three prospects in the Padres system. But after six starts with Tucson (2-2, 10.17 ERA), the right-hander was detoured to extended spring training and returned to San Antonio, where he finished stronger with the Missions (5-6, 4.33 ERA in 16 starts). Originally signed as a non-drafted free agent in May of 2006, Castro was 29-33 with a 4.24 ERA in 117 games (113 starts), over six minor league seasons in the Padres organization. The left-handed Hernandez, 22, went 10-3 with a 3.49 ERA in 28 games (18 starts) across three levels in the Padres organization last season. The Venezuela native split the majority of his 2011 season between Single-A Lake Elsinore and Double-A San Antonio, going 8-2 with a 3.03 ERA and 87 strikeouts against 16 walks between the two clubs. He also made four starts for Triple-A Tucson last season and has a fastball in the 92-95 mph range.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 07:38 PM) 1.) Cespedes will not get $30-$50M and start in AA 2.) The difference between Danks and Ramirez is obvious. Danks will be 27, Ramirez 31. 3.) There isn't one player on that roster, save Sale, that I would hesitate to deal to get a grade A starting prospect. As I've written, they've made nice strides so far shoring up the rotation. Ramirez isn't Magglio Ordonez or C-Lee, he doesn't have the type of frame and body that just goes south like an Andruw Jones in his 30's. There's no reason the White Sox can't be a competitive team in 2012 and 2013. There are certainly arguments why they might not be competitive...but you can't make a convincing case it will be impossible for them to compete in the Al Central, when history shows otherwise. Some would argue Sale should be traded before he loses his value as a starter or suffers a debilitating injury. Of course, upside is off the charts. How confident can we be that will happen? 50/50, at best. Same thing with Viciedo. Although very very few GM's in baseball would trade either one of these two guys without seeing what they can do first. BY THE WAY, does anyone think it's a coincidence that we're adding so many Venezuelan players now that Ozzie's NOT the manager? My count, that's 3, at least.

from baseballamerica.com Simon Castro, rhp Age: 23. Born: April 9, 1988 in San Jose de los Llanos, Dominican Republic. Ht.: 6-5. Wt.: 210. Bats: R. Throws: R. Career Transactions: Signed as nondrafted free agent by Padres, May 8, 2006. Club (League) Class W L ERA G GS SV IP H R ER HR BB SO WHIP Tucson (PCL) AAA 2 2 10.17 6 6 0 25.2 37 30 29 5 18 21 2.14 San Antonio (TL) AA 5 6 4.33 16 16 0 89.1 95 48 43 9 16 73 1.24 Total 7 8 5.63 22 22 0 115 132 78 72 14 34 94 1.44 Owner of the best slider in the Padres system prior to the trade, Castro seemed poised for big things in 2011 as he tackled Triple-A for the first time, but the bubble burst early. Castro landed on the disabled list with a lat injury after six starts for Tucson yielded a 10.17 ERA and 21-18 K-BB ratio. He recovered somewhat after a demotion to San Antonio in June, and he closed out the season on a high note, notching a 35-5 K-BB ratio and 2.53 ERA over his final seven starts. At fault for Castro's regression: out-of-whack mechanics in which he failed to extend on the front side of his delivery and also recoiled his arm. He's always pitched with a long arm action, so the Padres traced his troubles back to his starting assignment in the 2010 Futures Game, in which he allowed two runs in one inning. He hasn't pitched with the same consistency since. Castro's velocity dipped into the high 80s early in the 2011 season before he recovered to pitch at 92-94 mph and touch 96 with tailing action later in the year. His slider showed trademark late bite and 82-84 mph velocity at times, though just as often it resembled a three-quarters slurve. The changeup could be a fringe-average pitch in the mid-80s with more refinement. If Castro rediscovers his two plus pitches and control he still profiles as a mid-rotation arm or set-up reliever. Pedro Hernandez, lhp Age: 22. Born: April 12, 1989 in Barquisimeto, Venezuela. Ht.: 5-10. Wt.: 210. Bats: L. Throws: L. Career Transactions: Signed as nondrafted free agent by Padres, Nov. 1, 2006. Club (League) Class W L ERA G GS SV IP H R ER HR BB SO WHIP Lake Elsinore (CAL) HiA 5 0 2.70 15 6 0 56.2 52 19 17 3 6 44 1.02 Tucson (PCL) AAA 2 1 6.00 4 4 0 18 28 17 12 3 6 7 1.89 San Antonio (TL) AA 3 2 3.48 9 8 0 41.1 39 17 16 4 10 43 1.19 Total 10 3 3.49 28 18 0 116 119 53 45 10 22 94 1.22 Hernandez always has thrown a quality changeup and shown strong command, but his prospect status began to take hold when his velocity began to creep up halfway through the 2010 season. Signed at age 18 out of Venezuela, Hernandez initially topped out near 87 mph but that has since become the low point for his fastball range. The Padres say the lefty has touched 95 on occasion, but more often he sits in the low 90s and works both sides of the plate with a riding fastball. Batters don't pick up the ball well against the short and stocky Hernandez, which helps his solid-average, low-80s changeup play up. Hernandez's mid- to low-80s slider/cutter doesn't elicit much praise, but it could be a fringe-average offering for him in time. Hernandez may not have a deep enough repertoire to start in the big leagues, but he could grow into a nifty lefty reliever capable of facing both righties and lefties. So we have another nice piece to go with Hector Santiago in terms of our LH pitching depth (both starting and relieving)...probably makes it even more certain that Matt Thornton is traded FOR the best haul of the offseason (in comparison to what many are saying about Molina). Marinez (Marlins) and this Hernandez kid will definitely get long looks for the pen coming out of ST. The Sox are going to have to decide ASAP about whether they want Stewart, Santiago and Hernandez as starters or relievers for 2012. Seems more likely now they'll try Hernandez to go with Ohman and let Santiago continue to build up his innings pitched and experience in getting AAA hitters out with the Knights. Here's the problem with scouting reports. Just reading them, it makes it look like KW just fleeced the Padres, acquiring two quality arms (one of them a valuable lefty) for a piece he probably considered non-tendering at different points in the 2011 season (like when he was on the DL).

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 06:28 PM) I can't really look into this myself since I've begun drinking Tank 7s tonight..... but can we look at those Cuban stats for Cespedes and say Alexei's Cuban stats were against comparable competition? Is there some way of finding this out? They played in the same league, so comparable. The problem is that Ramirez was seriously underrated because of 1) his lack of a clear position defensively (he was actually capable all over the field, which worked against him) and his slight frame. Everyone in baseballs knows/knew about Viciedo, Cespedes, Gourriel, Soler, etc. Just don't see the White Sox winning a bidding war...although if anyone is in a position to judge how much he's worth and how good he really is, it's the likes of Contreras, El Duque, Alexei and Tank. Surely, Williams has talked extensively (through interpreters) to both of our current Cuban players about the pro's and con's of acquiring him, and what he brings to the table.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 08:02 PM) 1.) At 26, if Cespedes gets between $30-$50M he will not see the minors. 2.) A better pitching prospect than Molina is needed before I'm comfortable with the state of the starters going forward. Plenty of international free agents have been given huge amounts of money and not seen the majors right away. Nobody in baseball thinks this kid is ready for big leagues in 2012...even on a non-contending team. Everyone complains that Beckham was rushed through the system, and then we want to invest 3X-5X what we put into Viciedo and deal with the permanent repercussions when he flops and loses his confidence? Obviously you're setting yourself up for the "trade Alexei Ramirez" comment. By all means, go for it. Why not just package Ramirez and Matty Thornton together in a "super trade" to satisfy Marty alone? You really want Escobar, Martinez or Tyler Kuhn to be our starting SS? Lillibridge? And you think you can just stick him there because he played the position "so-so" 2-3 years ago with the Braves and our team's going to win more than 70 games? Arguably, Brent has played much better because he could relax offensively, not having to worry about the stress of playing SS or a middle infield position (like 2B). Playing the OF is 10X more relaxing mentally. Trade Ramirez but sign Danks? What's the point? We might as well just deal Floyd, Peavy, Ramirez, Thornton, Crain, Frasor, Ohman, Konerko, AJ, etc., get it over with one fell swoop and totally demoralize the entire fanbase. Why are you obsessed with having another pitching prospect, anyway? Our AAA rotation (especially with Zach Stewart there) and AA rotations will be strong as they have been in 2-3 years, Last time I checked, we had 10 "super pitching prospects" about a decade ago and almost none of them panned out...the predicted dynasty never materialized until we acquired Jose Contreras and then it lasted for about 16 months, at most (2005/first half 2006).

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 07:51 PM) He said the same thing about Marquez and Nunez. You would have preferred..."Carlos just wasn't worth the money he was going to get in arbitration. He's an injury-prone, one-dimensional player who broods too much and can't offset his defensive weaknesses with consistent offensive production. Dayan's my boy anyway, had to finally stick him in the line-up to justify that huge signing bonus that made me look like a Krazy Genius. And we don't give a crap about these 2 Padres' prospects, maybe Cooper can fix 'em, who the hell knows? Keith Law? He's hated me since the Sirotka Swindle. We just didn't want Carlos to go all Incredible Hulk on us if we non-tendered him, so we gave him some dignity to go with his departure."

QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 05:03 PM) It's like the Sox are trying to suck. Couldn't KW have gotten more for CQ had he dealt him at the winter meetings? How could anybody buy season tickets for this team? Maybe a 10-game package if they have those. If I lived in Chicago, five games a summer would be more than enough trips to the Cell to watch this s*** develop. Greg, we had to open up a spot in the line-up for Viciedo to play, period. How many seasons has Quentin been healthy and consistently productive since August, 2008? None, pretty much. Is Quentin the type of player you want to pay $7-10 million down the road for one dimension only, power? Not when you have Viciedo and Dunn signed for 3+ year to do the same exact thing. If nothing else, it's a sign to fans that we're finally going to give our younger players like Viciedo and DeAza (not super young, but should be in his prime) a shot to play full-time...whereas Quentin was never part of the plan for 2013. If KW could have gotten more, he would have dealt him last year at the All-Star break. Every GM in baseball saw the same weaknesses in his overall game that we did, it's not nuclear physics why he wasn't the most desired player on the trade market. I think you're letting your 2008 The Carlos Quentin glasses color your judgment on this deal. Not to mention his Jermaine Dye-ness in RF, where he has been one of the 3 worst defensive RF'ers in the game pretty consistently. This is going to be one of those trades (like the CQ trade itself from the DBacks) that most people around baseball pay little attention to (because really who cares much about the Padres?) but looks like a steal when Quentin's on the shelf for 2-3 months and one of those two pitchers develops into something under the tutelage of Cooper and the minor league instructional staff. If Beckham, Morel, Viciedo and Ramirez hit like they're capable of, as well as Rios and Dunn, then the lack of pop from DeAza isn't such a big issue, and DeAza actually slugged at am impressive clip last year compared to your guy Pierre. Who would want to watch the likes of Mark Teahen, Juan Pierre and Quentin for another year? Not I. Let's face it, Quentin had already peaked with the White Sox and totally gotten pull-happy and away from what made him a great hitter in 2008, and a league MVP-caliber player. DeAza and Viciedo are fresh faces and will bring new energy and excitement to the team. We saw glimpses of it at the end of 2011.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 03:22 PM) I hope they can. If they move him and Floyd the payroll would be at ~92M and they could make a serious run at Cespedes. Sign him and put Viciedo on the block. First thoughts went back to five years ago when I was celebrating New Year's on another bridge (last night with seemingly 10 million plus in Shanghai), that time in Prague. Danks/McCarthy. Darned if he didn't do it again, albeit this time a much LESS larger scale trade in the overall scheme of things. First of all, Marty34, are you crazy? Have you ever seen Cespedes play? Have you even watched the video, which seemingly ranks right up there with the Dayan Viciedo Video of 2008? Now you want the White Sox to fork over $30-50 million for this guy? Based on a hunch or theory? Cespedes would arguably be playing all or most of 2012 in High A or AA ball, so how would trading Viciedo help at all? That would make our OF DeAza, Rios and Lillibridge/Jordan Danks. That's honestly what you feel is a good idea? Trading Viciedo "low" is logical? Why/how? Here's the thing, KW has added something like 7 or 9 arms (can anyone think of the others besides those listed below) which are of decent quality or above in the last 6-8 months, correct? Don Cooper is one of the top 3-5 pitching coaches in baseball, yes? Most of Soxtalk wanted to jettison Ozzie Guillen even before 2011 and we still got back two former Top 10 prospects from another organization for him. In Marinez, Zach Stewart, Frasor (his upside is obvious limited, but he did suck with us last year), Molina, the two kids we just picked up from the Padres that both clearly have/had pretty good stuff...we're at least making SOME positive progress to building up our pitching depth chart/s in AA/AAA. If nothing else, we're really filling up the back end of our bullpen for the short term with a ton of prospects.