caulfield12

QUOTE (Crash73 @ Dec 26, 2011 -> 07:56 PM) C'mon! Very few sports people in HISTORY, have wanted to see his own team fail. Are you telling me Oz wouldn't have been happy with another WS ring? See Chicago Black Sox/Charles Comiskey.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Dec 26, 2011 -> 04:53 PM) Therein lies the problem. I really don't think that is the main focus of the organization right now, and I think the Santos trade proves it. "All in" teams don't trade their closer to put a prospect into the role. Obviously, they aren't going to trade Floyd for the sake of trading Floyd, but if a few guys they want become available for him, I doubt they would hesitate to trade him. How does it prove it? Maybe the front office really does believe Reed will be both better and cheaper in 2012. It's not like we're trading Floyd and replacing him with Stewart/Axelrod or trading Thornton and replacing him in the 8th with Ohman/Santiago/FA/waiver wire. Both of those moves would have obvious negative consequences for our ability to compete THIS year. You can also make the obvious arguments that Quentin basically HAS TO GO and Viciedo needs to be given everyday playing time. The only reason to keep Carlos is 1) you think you can compete better with him in 2012, 2) you can't get anything at all back in return and 3) there's a strong likelihood you believe that he will quickly be needed as additional depth to replace Rios and/or Dunn in the line-up offensively, playing the corners with Dayan, and DeAza in CF. Or sharing DH time with Dunn/Dayan. Is that worth $6.5-7.25 million to JR and KW? Guess we'll find out soon enough.

CUBS signed Andy Sonnanstine on the cheap. With Wood and now this recent acquisition, looking to rebuild their starting pitching depth chart a bit. If we're really going to deal Floyd, Sonnanstine would have been decent filler for 1/2+ season, although he's probably too homer prone for USCF.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 26, 2011 -> 05:10 PM) There's some good things there though. If you move one of those relievers and you get back another starting pitcher prospect...yes, that might move Stewart into the pen, but then we have a replacement starting pitching prospect. That's what we need! Looking long term, that gives you Danks, Humber, Sale, Molina, and then "New starting pitching prospect x" as your guys under control for 5+ years. If Stewart goes to the bullpen because there's someone else to take his place as a starter, that's more liveable to me, with the current situation, than "Stewart went to the bullpen because we wanted to win in 2012". Actually, I'm higher on Santiago as a starter (than Stewart) in 2012, but he'll also be needed in the bullpen (most likely) right out of the gate. No scientific/empirical evidence, let's just call it a hunch. Then again, having 3 lefties in a rotation would be pretty unusual. Not unheard of....but you're right, dumping Ohman wouldn't be a bad idea either, except for KW having to acknowledge another questionable move of his.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 26, 2011 -> 05:02 PM) I won't have any problems with it either. I just focus on the rest of the roster. There's very little reason to keep Quentin around if you're not looking to compete, for example; in fact it's counterproductive, since he continues blocking Viciedo. There's little reason to keep Ohman and Thornton around if you can get anything for them. IMO, you really have to try to give PK14 a chance to move, with his age and him being a 2013 FA again. I just really dislike the 1/2 measure rebuilding, where you eat another year of Konerko, Quentin, and Thornton's contracts but you start off 7-8 WAR behind where we were last year with a pretty bad team. The other "win now" move was bringing back a seemingly overpriced Frasor on a questionable deal that reeks of KW's penchant for proving himself right and justifying a past trade. Now Danks' deal. Curious, have these White Sox been, this offseason.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 26, 2011 -> 04:59 PM) What I'm saying is...if that's the case, then there are other moves that need to be made soon (i.e. moving Quentin, moving Matty, taking calls on Konerko and AJ) that need to happen in conjunction. If you move Floyd,on top of what this team has already lost, you've taken such a big bite out of this team's chances that even if some things went right (Dunn, Rios, Beckham recoveries) they would just be offsetting what we lost. Or we push Crain and/or Thornton on a team desperate enough for relief pitching they'll give you the equivalent of another Stewart or Molina. But of course that pushes Stewart more into that relief role in the dreaded "must win now" and field the most competitive big league roster possible mode. Marty34 will chime in with the Ramirez trade theory, which is pretty much writing off competing until 2013 or 2014.

One would guess the hope is to "patch" things together to stay in the race and remain competitive through July, the tried and true KW theory which almost never works unless we're the front-runner out of the gate... Who knows what Stewart will do with a full spring training/offseason under his belt? I guess the only one who really knows the answer to these questions definitively is Don Cooper and the rest of the staff. Personally, I feel we'd be better off going with the rotation we have unless we're bowled away with an offer...so then the next question is does Stewart start in AAA or get sent back to the dreaded relief role which might impede his future development, considering we'll definitely need him as a starter again in 2012 or surely in 2013. Gavin would still have 1 1/2 years on his deal to go....so he'd be an attractive target. But probably equally attractive for the Sox to hold onto Gavin in case we're still fairly close to the Tigers...so let's just hope we're in first place or last place at the ASB and the direction of the organization/future couldn't be any clearer. The money allocated to him isn't going to break the bank, and we don't have any insurance for Sale/Peavy/Humber besides Stewart/Axelrod and possibly Santiago or whatever Loiaza/Gil Heredia they unearth on a waiver claim coming out of March. We all saw what little patience they had for Daniel Hudson, only 3 starts. And the pressure there will be to lift Stewart if he has 6-8 starts in a row with a 6-8ish ERA.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 25, 2011 -> 12:51 PM) I love 3 ways With another dude and chicklet or the more typical two girls version?

HUGO is really an excellent film. With so much money invested into it, they have done a horrible marketing/advertising job with that campaign. Whoever was in charge of it will undoubtedly lose their job over it, because the movie's almost brilliant and film-making at its best, along with MI/Ghost Protocol. One review I read explained it so well, it's a kids movie actually made for adults. http://www.avclub.com/articles/furtively-f...ase-file,61684/ Great article/review/criticism analyzing SUCKER PUNCH

Whatever that game was in late 1995 that he hit two (grand slam) home runs against the Rangers, the last one won it. My best friend had already left that game early and has regretted it to this day.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Dec 24, 2011 -> 06:37 PM) The Sox are all in for 2012. Gavin and Danks and Peavy and Humber and and a fight for #5. Reed and Crain and Thornton and Frasor in the pen. CQ in right. Mark my words. We are counting on a turnaround from some non-performers You're going to sit Viciedo another season? Why? QUentin is not a part of the future. What is going to be our bright idea this year, to leave him in Charlotte yet again and make him into a catcher?

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 24, 2011 -> 03:07 PM) Production from corner OF spots should be far down the list of priorities for a big-spending team like the Sox. Those guys can be found easier than SP. We haven't done a great job of it, exactly. Borchard, Nick Swisher, Josh Fields (he was a "corner" player when they drafted him, they just didn't know it yet), Ryan Sweeney, Adam Dunn, Juan Pierre, Alex Rios (still think RF is his true position, he just can't hit enough for the corner), etc. About the only guy who has been a success in our park offensively has been Carlos Quentin, and we can't really take any credit for developing him. DeAza, we just scrounged him up off the waiver wire. Viciedo obviously has a shot as well. Flowers, maybe but doubtful. But clearly, we've had a horrible time developing ANY impact bats the last decade, as well as finding a true prototypical leadoff hitter/CF type. As mentioned earlier, you trade Alexei Ramirez ONLY for a blockbuster package, because there's no reason to dump that contract at all and there's no suitable replacement for him unless you want to return to the Ozzie Guillen offensive years in Old Comiskey of 1985-1989, where Ivan Calderon and Carlos Martinez were offensive standouts comparatively.

Viciedo=Bobby Bonilla Forget the Vladimir Guerrero comparisons, a HOF career is pretty unlikely.

Would rather give half that amount to a Brad Lidge, an on the rebound (ala JJ Putz) formerly effective closer.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 24, 2011 -> 01:04 AM) No doubt. Apparently, in 2011, the most efficient way to restock the farm is to keep your good or "better" players and trade your bad ones. Only way to do business. lol. Just reread what you quoted. Of course. "If you want our defensively-challenged, injury-prone OF who we only have under control for one more year...you must take one of the most overpaid, perpetually underachieving players in baseball with him. The ball is in your court. We don't have to do anything." Or you can have John Danks, Alexei Ramirez, Matt Thornton AND a serving of Rios on the side, to go with the division crown for whatever respective league you're playing in. So why not add about $150-175 million to your team payroll in future salary commitments, it's Christmastime, right?

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 23, 2011 -> 11:20 PM) Yup, I expect them to step it up as well. It IS baseball thou - anything can happen. Dunn could hit 40 bomb - or 12... either wouldn't surprise me. Rios could be totally worthless or put up a 4 WAR - either wouldn't surprise me. Humber could throw to a ~1 WHIP or could put up a 1.5 - either wouldn't surprise me. It's gonna be an interesting 2012 - but I'm not expecting us to beat Detroit this year. The other thing that really threw a lot of observers for a loop is how well Peralta played, both offensively and even defensively. Seemed his career was winding down in a backwards direction with the Indians. Boesch and Jackson weren't nearly as good as 2010, Ordonez and C. Guillen were non-factors, and they still were pretty darned impressive. Obviously, they had some offensive struggles from time to time, as can be expected with any club.

Cooper MIGHT NOT be able to fix Heath (no relation to Phillips). Maybe Greg Walker can?

Cooper MIGHT NOT be able to fix him.

QUOTE (sunofgold @ Dec 23, 2011 -> 10:12 PM) Haven't heard the White Sox are going make Stewart a short reliever. I could see him in the long reliever spot since there is no opening for starters right now. And we also have Axelrod who could start and then Molina hopefully coming up soon. Right now I think that Reed has to get the job (by default really) . Crain backing Reed up if he cannot do the job. Or open competition for the job. But Thornton cannot close. 25 blown saves, 20 saves. That is enough for me. Balta is waiting to go all Incredible Hulk on that idea. With Sale already a potential victim of the bullpen experiment in 2011...trading Santos/moving Sale/Pena departing/trading Thornton and forcing Zach Stewart into a relief role doesn't quite seem to be a good enough payoff for Daniel Hudson. Where it looks like a magical move is if Stewart. Sale and Molina put up Buehrle/Floyd/Hudson/Gio Gonzalez/Edwin Jackson numbers on the board. Otherwise, the future is bleak indeed.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 23, 2011 -> 11:07 PM) I'm thinking a full year of Fister will do wonders for them. That's still a big stadium to pitch in, but I don't think he'll repeat his success from last season so easily. We'll just have to wait and see. Porcello and Scherzer remain the keys to that rotation, along with Jacob Turner.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Dec 23, 2011 -> 05:59 PM) If I had to guess, I'd say he dumps Quentin, finds a catching prospect to compete with Flowers for AJ's spot after next season, and then acquires a prospect who can hopefully take over for Konerko in 2 years. How he does any of this other than dealing Quentin, I have no idea. He could take a first baseman high in this years draft, but the catching prospect definitely would need to be more seasoned. Now that I think about it, Kenny probably still values Flowers highly enough to have him penciled in as our starter after AJ is gone. Trading Thornton or Floyd is the only way to get that done. Or possibly Crain. Just can't see any scenario yet where they deal Alexei Ramirez or Konerko....not until July, at the earliest. And then we really are rebuilding (officially) if those 2 go.

QUOTE (sunofgold @ Dec 23, 2011 -> 10:31 PM) This team is coming together very nicely. If KW has to cut some salary, there are still a couple guys that he could trade (Thornton, Quentin). If he doesn't then there isn't any rush to make moves. Both Thornton and Quentin might have more value near the trading deadline in 2012. KW has been putting out high prices for our players. Thus, he probably isn't in a rush. Maybe JR said that team salary is in an acceptable range right now. It is lower than 2011. Probably the only big question going into next year right now is who is going to be the closer? A lot of people are saying Addison. Just don't make Thornton the closer if he is on the team. 1. Reed 2. Crain 3. Frasor OR Zach Stewart There's always the chance someone emerges from out of nowhere (like a Scott Radinsky or Boone Logan) and makes the team, but usually it's LH relievers who can jump like that. Soptic is getting some hype just like Nathan Jones did in the past, but there aren't many examples of RH relievers appearing out of thin air. Jenks and Santos are about as good for examples as any, and both were our pet projects.

QUOTE (sunofgold @ Dec 23, 2011 -> 10:10 PM) Could always trade Quentin & trade Rios at some point (trade bad contracts or send a lot of cash). Make an future OF of De Aza, Cespedes, and Viciedo. With Lillibridge as the fourth OF. Just have to be creative. I would like that. We're going to be stuck with Rios for at least another 3-4 months, if not much longer. We simply don't SEND cash to anyone. One of the few times we have done it recently was the Linebrink deal to ATL, and even with the Teahen/Jackson salary dump....we used Jackson's value to get Mark Teahen off the 2012 roster and payroll. KW also FINALLY dumped McDougal off the roster after giving him about 3 opportunities too many. And the jury's still out on whether DeAza will hold up as an everyday player. Pretty good odds, but it's far from a sure thing. Of course, we thought Adam Dunn and Beckham were pretty sure things at one point.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Dec 23, 2011 -> 07:11 PM) Hey Balta ... 100% agreed. That was the classic Kenny-move that we all seem to know, that every GM in baseball must know, and that some will defend as "oh, that's just how Kenny is." Yeah, and it sucks. And it hasn't been working all that well. And it means he isn't doing up-until-the-last-minute due diligence by seeking to maximize his trading chips. DISLIKED the over-anxious Santos deal not because I loved Santos, nor because I knew a darned thing about Molina (other than what the very mixed after-the-fact scouting reports disclosed), but because it gave every appearance of being same old "swing-for-the-fences, take the high-risk (the unnecessarily high-risk)" Kenny. My point about being elated if Kenny has now learned some patience was referring to POST-Santos trade. Maybe HIS boss took up back to the woodshed and set him straight. Maybe some trusted elder statesman like Buddy Bell had him look at himself in the mirror. If he had changed it could certainly happen AFTER yet another Kenny moment (that he finally realized WAS a Kenny moment). And, just to be fair, I do always reserve the thought that internally they may know things about Sergio that we don't (perhaps, maxed-out and all down-hill-from-here) and things about Molina that we don't too (despite what some of the naysayers claiming, this guy absolutely being the real enough deal that we must get him). Bottom-line for me is that no one on our roster is going to bring us a Cahill, Latos, or Gio type return, but of any of them, Gavin (or Alexei -- but I don't trade him because I smell the Ramirez-Tank-Cespedes era on the horizon) is the one that if played correctly COULD bring back a relatively decent haul. So, GO KENNY! There's another way of looking at this...because of Paddy, we got in on Molina one step before the rest of baseball was onto him and he became one of the best pitching prospects in baseball. KW has learned his lesssons with closers over the past decade, in terms of not getting too attached to big-name guys like Koch, that he can succeed going on the cheap with the likes of Takatsu, Hermanson, Jenk and Santos. In that case, better to get this Molina kid too early rather than too late, when the cost is Alexei Ramirez, Dayan Viciedo or a starting pitcher who would cripple our big league team's chances going forward. If we didn't have Addison Reed, Crain and Frasor behind Sergio, this move wouldn't have been contemplated, not to mention Zach Stewart. (Yes, it's not the best scenario when Hudson becomes Jackson becomes 2 bullpen guys, granted...but there's also the freedom of getting out of allocating $15 million in payroll and especially dumping Teahen's dead weight from the roster.) Of course, Molina still might become a bust...or he might end up being our equivalent of Johan Santana/Liriano, you never can tell.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 23, 2011 -> 07:37 AM) No, but you can add in the additional element of them being utterly, utterly horrible last year...and then ask how many men (note that I said men, things that used to be men until the steroids removed those organs don't count) significantly improve once they're on the wrong side of 30? By that argument, you should never sign a free agent whose contract covers more 30's than 20's, offer Konerko and AJ extensions...and never should have taken on the Rios contract with the prime of his career behind him. Maybe this Danks move, kicking the tires on Cespedes....is getting back towards that concept of having the majority of the team hitting their 26-29 years together, as much as possible. Of course, that kind of flies in the face of the 2005 team, a team which felt more "veteran led" than one brimming with youngsters in their prime. At the time, the starting rotation seemed to be the one area, with Buehrle, Freddy Garcia, Garland and Brandon McCarthy, where the potential existed for them to go on an extended run of dominance if all the right chips fell into place. The only "older" pitchers were El Duque and Contreras.