caulfield12

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) KW should be fired if he doesn't go after the best available guy. I have this weird feeling some guys may turn the job down, though. You got a pretty boy GM with an ego and an owner who at any moment might go on the cheap again. And you got the Dunn problem. Assuming he has a blank checkbook. Which clearly he doesn't. Otherwise, any one of us could get on a plane (ala Billy Beane in MONEYBALL), go to St. Pete and bring Dave Martinez back as the new Sox manager, or Terry Francona, for that matter. And the manager has to be signed off on by JR, as well. So if JR wanted to spend $7.5 million, give LaRussa a seat on the board/partial ownership interest and promised a "golden parachute/front office" position for TLR at age 70, do you really think LaRussa would still stay in St. Louis?

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) Misconception: Ozzie was a good in-game manager. Misconception: Ozzie was good for the image of the Chicago White Sox. Misconception: Ozzie cares about you. Misconception: Ozzie is in it for anything but money. Misconception: Ozzie is not brilliant. Phil Rogers called Ozzie, not KW, a "genius." (That was Marty on KW) That must make it true, and empirically more true or valid than anything said on a messageboard or blog.

Greg will poll 100 Jayhawks fans and they will claim never to have heard of Dunn or Rios but will be conspicuously wearing their brand-new Miami Marlins glow-in-the-dark gear. After Bill Self and Roy Williams, #3 on their "I'd most like to have a beer with..." list would be Ozzie Guillen, followed by the Reverend Fred Phelps, anyone from the cast of "The Big Bang Theory" and Minka Kelly.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:32 PM) Well if Marty were running the team, think of what we could have gotten for Crede, Rowand, Buehrle, PK, Garland, and Garcia after '04!!! That 2007 team would have been STACKED Just like the Twins and Indians really took off with the hauls they got back for Johan Santana and CC Sabathia...clearly the White Sox could have leveraged an even bigger haul for their remaining stable of players. We could have sold "high" on Bobby Jenks before he ever pitched for the Sox because clearly he was going to break down in 2010 and 2011 as he was only a one inning, 60 IP per season pitcher.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:24 PM) Swishers numbers by year (OBP and OPS): .322 .768 .372 .864 .381 .836 .332 .743 .371 .869 .359 .870 .374 .822 Such a shame Ozzie hated him. Maybe Swisher just needed.... 1) To be surrounded by All-Stars at every position so his offensive game would pass by unnoticed 2) Not to be forced into the leadoff spot, which is at least 50% KW's fault because Cabrera wasn't a protypical leadoff hitter and Jerry Owens was doomed to fail...at least to objective scouts who had been following him since his Expos/Nationals days 3) A wind tunnel to the RF bleachers In the end, it's still far from clear the Yankees will retain his services. We'll see.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:14 PM) So the gist of all this is the Sox aren't 15 games worse than the Tigers? If you believe that, good for you. Well, Marty "The Genius" 34. We finished 9-10 games back of the Twins in 2004. Clearly they were more talented, they'd crushed the White Sox in 2003 and won three consecutive division championships. So tearing apart the entire organization and dumping everyone to rebuild at that point in time would have been the prudent move from a financial standpoint in order to protect JR's pocketbook. Oooops, they did that, well, sort of....getting rid of Ordonez, Lee and Valentin. But KW clearly didn't trade away every talented player left for "prospects/suspects," like you're suggesting with Ramirez and Santos. And we actually won the World Series the following year. What do you know? A clever retort besides we finished 15 games behind the Tigers would be nice, but I'm not expecting much...thanks in advance for your time and consideration. So Marty, how is 2011-12 any different for this organization with KW in charge than 2004-2005? Because we finished 9-10 GB instead of 15 and were OH SO CLOSE (seemingly) to the juggernaut Twins?

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 02:03 PM) Can it be argued the second Swisher trade was Ozzie's fault because he forced Williams hand? We should also blame the entire veteran clubhouse, too? DeWayne Wise, for being on the roster to take his place? What about Greg Walker and Steve Swisher, for him refusing to work with his own batting coach? Like the Rasmus situation in St. Louis, should Ozzie have forced him against his will to work with Greg "The Guru" Walker?

I know. We should name Bill James as our manager, just to prove how good (or bad) the father of all SABR movements would actually be as a "real" manager and not just a Strat-O-Matic one. Probably a better idea than Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian. Although Ryno's a close 2nd, just because it would annoy the Cubs' columnist from the Quad-City Times who named his first-born son after him.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:06 PM) I'm personally offended by your use of logic Well, sometimes it works. Surely, it will end up with a brief, pithy one or two sentence deflection about Kenny "The Genius" Williams.

So essentially, Loria's gambling the Guillen contract will pad his pocketbooks enough in the short-term to limit the long-term damage Ozzie will eventually do to that organization, right? If anyone really believes they're going to spend on Aramis Ramirez, Fielder, Pujols, Reyes, Edwin Jackson, etc., they have another thing coming.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 02:53 PM) Ended 15 games back after young talent given chance to play. So if you were a fan of the Braves or Red Sox, you'd argue they have no talent either, right? Because since the White Sox young talent failed, they still didn't do as poorly as the more-hyped young talent in Atlanta or the 2nd most expensive roster in the majors. If you remember, we'd dumped Edwin Jackson and shut down Peavy. 1/3rd of our starting rotation was completely different. If the pitching staff put up the same numbers in August and September as the first four months, you'd have a more valid point. Yes, Viciedo was disappointing, but it seems he wasn't 100% healed from his wrist problems. He was expected to be the biggest contributor, and it actually turned out to be DeAza instead, along with Flowers and Morel showing some encouraging pop as well. You're also discounting the nearly historic run that the Tigers put on for six weeks, the presence of Justin Verlander and Miguel Cabrera (2 of the 5 best players in baseball and true superstars) and the fact that our manager was more concerned with money and Miami and his next contract or his impending sojourn to Spain. How would that inspire the team? Finally, you're discounting what any of these players (including Dunn/Beckham/Rios, all "relatively" young, especially Gordon) can do with a new hittting coach and manager in place. Surely, after 2007, your pronouncements about trading Jerry Owens, Josh Fields, Andy Gonzalez and Ehren Wasserman would have been just as bleak, right? Finally, you keep arguing we should trade one of our cheapest and highest ROI players in Santos because of two blown saves to the Tigers. If we finished 11 games out instead of 15, would that have meant you would still have wanted to keep him and the White Sox young talent wasn't as bad as you're arguing?

The new manager’s star power was evident at his Wednesday unveiling. The Dolphins fill about one-third that room for postgame press conferences. For Guillen, you couldn’t have slipped a sheet of notebook paper between the wall-to-wall media. Guillen won a World Series with the White Sox in 2005 but is as famous for his candid outspokenness and eccentricity. Suddenly, because of Guillen far more than the new ballpark, the Marlins brand is bigger nationally, bigger in Latin America. Suddenly, the Marlins will be discovered by ESPN SportsCenter. Guillen likened his deteriorating situation in Chicago to a hurricane and said he was allowed to “evacuate.” At that Samson leaned into a smiling Loria and whispered, “Hurricane Ozzie has arrived.” (Loria, evidently smitten by the metaphor, later referred to Guillen as “a Category 5 manager.”). Guillen, I was pleased to hear first hand, will espouse on anything he is asked. Probably even baseball, if it ever came to that! Animated frowns, gestures and shrugs decorate his speech. Words come fast and loud, and occasionally in slips a word (or three) seldom heard in, say, a church sermon. It is difficult to imagine Guillen won’t get on the nerves of Loria, who couldn’t get along with Joe Girardi or Fredi Gonzalez. Even Guillen admitted that some, at a glance, might think, “Wow, that’s a crazy combo!” But Loria knows what he is buying, seems genuinely thrilled to have him, and should be. If this has been a bland franchise lately, Guillen is a one-man spice rack. His English is heavily accented, charmingly fractured and wonderfully unfiltered. Ask him anything. Seriously. Like: Ozzie, are you a Hugo Chavez supporter as we’ve heard alleged on local Spanish radio? No, he said. But then he also said, “People talk a lot of s--- about Fidel or Chavez, that’s their problem. I wish I knew [Chavez], I’d be ambassador to Spain, collecting money and watch bullfights. Everybody in every country deserves [the government] they get.” The latter comment won’t endear Guillen to Miami Cubans, but pandering seems of little interest to this man. Guillen, on how the Dolphins haven’t done much for years: “No s--- they haven’t. Am I lying?” On why the Marlins needed their own stadium: “You come here and you see Shula and the ’72 team. After they win a World Series they don’t deserve that.” On coming into LeBron James’ and Dwyane Wade’s town: “In Chicago Mike Ditka was gone, Michael Jordan was gone and Oprah left. It was Ozzie’s town. Now I’m No. 4 [after the Heat’s Big 3]. I’m done!” On money: “I’m gonna put a championship ring on your finger or give you $10 million, what you take? My satisfaction is a ring, but my goal is to have money!” On baseball fans: “If they knew the game, they’d be sitting next to me.” (Guillen was not even asked about his following the Santeria religion, which was probably just as well. Although no animals were sacrificed in his time in Chicago). Guillen’s arrival is not as big as LeBron last summer taking his talents to South Beach, but in a baseball context it is close. It would take a superstar signing — of an Albert Pujols stature — for the Marlins to top this. “I want people out there to feel proud to be a Marlins fan,” Guillen said. “I’m not cocky, I’m not arrogant. I have confidence. I feel like I’m back home. I’m ready to go into spring training and kick some butts.” For the Marlins, the future is now here, and the snapshot of it is a swank new ballpark and a garrulous Ozzie Guillen. The Marlins’ past? That left us Wednesday, but left the memories behind. And the snapshot there, for me, will always be those early-arriving fans applauding reverently, and moving Jack McKeon to tears. Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/28/2430...l#ixzz1ZN9yEtp4

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 10:37 AM) By the way, anyone other than me have an urge to go dredge up the trade deadline threads where the Braves passed on Carlos Quentin and had Michael Bourn as their only big deadline addition? But without Quentin for the final month down the stretch, wouldn't the same scenario have played out in all likelihood?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 08:35 AM) Dude, seriously, GIVE IT UP. We're not packaging Chris Sale and Alex Rios to move Alex Rios next year. It's not happening. If Dunn is hitting .159 again on June 1st, do you really think that he wouldn't retire?

QUOTE (MAX @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 05:03 AM) I think it depends upon their standings. If they are anywhere close, I'd say they evaluate them on june 1st. Rios would never quit, but Dunn very well might. He has SOME pride, every professional athlete does. And yet I can't remember a player in history walking away from $30-35-40 million still on the contract. Gil Meche, that was one season, not 2 1/2. And he was injured and didn't want to go through another long period of rehab. Ideally, if it's going to be like 2011 again, Dunn retires and we can package Rios and whatever we have of value to dump him....leaving only Peavy.

But supposedly it was said SOMEWHERE that he would get at least 2 seasons to clean this mess up...yes?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 06:54 AM) I have been on the fence about that one. Maybe I will check it otu. I'm not sure it more than merely a very good movie, but Damon and Blunt's "connection/chemistry" made it nearly great.

QUOTE (Felix @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 06:59 AM) I'd say it was a lot of the baseball stuff that bugged me and stopped me from really getting into. I understand some of the changes they made from the book to make it transfer to the screen better, but still. One of the first scenes in the movie is Beane flying to Cleveland to have trade talks with the Indians. If you're trying to sell me the idea that the A's had no money to spend, then don't have the main character wasting money on flights to start a trade conversation. That would NEVER happen. A GM doesn't fly across the country to ask another GM "Hey, how about this OF?" I realize this sort of gripe is pretty petty, but it's one of those things that stops you from buying the environment they're selling, which really impacts the experience. Wasn't that about trading for Ricardo Rincon? Hardly the kind of thing you'd fly thousands of miles for if you were charging for soda pop in the clubhouse (also not a true story that was inserted to make the A's look more like Charlie Finley's A's). Then again, once upon a time, one infamous team did trade Brian Giles for Rincon, lol. That was probably worth a Gulfstream/G6 flight.

So KW just has a "fill-in-the-blank" contract for at least two years, possibly three? Wish things would be a bit more defined with his situation than what we have now.

LaRussa, Torre, Cox, Francona....forget about it. It's not even about the money. Those aren't the type of managers you would want to inherit the current morass of confusion and organizational apathy. A Gibson (probably wouldn't work with KW) or Martinez would be much more interesting. (And as to greg's point, he is literally the "sexy" pick as well as figuratively, as many former Sox wives and groupies would attest...that can't hurt his cause from a marketing standpoint, either). Alomar Jr. is definitely the safe pick of the moment.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/i...ll-never-forget

Do you really believe they're going to spend $4-5 million per season on Francona? This whole "All In" thing has become a thing of the past SEEMINGLY this week, and the likes of Francona or LaRussa would have zero interest in a complete rebuild...basically the same thing Lou Piniella went through in Tampa before he finally walked away from it.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 11:50 PM) Ozzie wasn't fired. He quit to get more money so he wouldn't die poor. Kenny offered to stand down. Cora was never going to be interim. Cowley isn't a journalist. Greg Walker was responsible for the hitters to a degree. Feel free to add to it. Why should it matter if KW offered to "stand down"? Should that make me admire him more? I would have more respect if he said to JR, "Look, I'm responsible for this mess, the completely dysfunctional relationship between the front office and the coaching staff, Dunn/Rios/Peavy/Hudson for Jackson/Swisher...just give me one more chance. I'm going to rededicate myself 100% to this job and the effort of getting this organization back to where it was in 2005 and 2006. I won't rest until we have a team that White Sox fans can be proud of, that plays the game correctly, that hustles, that executes fundamentals..." That he is willing to quit and escape from this mess he created doesn't really impress me at all. In actuality, he created a large amount of the structural issues that plague this organization both today, tomorrow and 3 years from now. He was the one most directly responsible for Dave Wilder, and the current complete disaster which is our talent-base in the Domincan. Even this week, he's expressing astonishment when there's no "superstar" players to be had down there for the amount the White Sox want to spend. He should be honest with JR and tell him he needs to open the purse strings more in Asia, Venezuela and the Dominican, as well as emerging markets like Brazil, Australia, India, etc. Same thing with the draft. He should tell JR that it's his fault he needs to let Buehrle and Konerko go, because of the other players who are woefully underperforming with huge contracts. If he's not capable of convincing JR that the ONLY way to change the organizational mindset is to trade away most of the core and start over with a philosophy like they're following in Tampa, Milwaukee, Toronto, Arizona, KC, Texas, etc., he should walk away from the job today. If, and only if, he really wants to "WIN THE WAR" with Ozzie Guillen, about who was more important to the 2005 World Series championship...he should prove that he can build a consistent playoff-contending team again from the ashes. KW did this in the 2007-08 offseason to an extent, but things are 3X as bleak now because of the contracts we can't get off the books until midseason 2012 at the earliest.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 12:39 AM) So basically, if I don't like my boss, and I know I am on my way out the door soon, I can just create a situation which is unworkable or impossible for my boss or coworker to coexist in and thereby get him fired? Assanine. Well, not exactly. Let's think of KW as a regional sales director and Ozzie as his top salesman and marketing "face of the company." If 10 other things go wrong with the sales operation that have absolutely nothing to do with the top salesman, then the leader has to take responsibility. Of course, some will argue KW and Ozzie were "equal" or KW never had the authority...which isn't without precedent, if you look at the Yankees under Steinbrenner or the Loria situation with managers down in FLA. I don't think ANYONE would say (and Greg hasn't) that Ozzie doesn't bear some degree of fault or responsiblity. The irritation might simply be that KW "handled things better" or "brown-nosed" or "kissed butt" and just because he was the lesser of two evils, that in and of itself wasn't a reason for him to be retained as well. KW did publicly try to blame Ozzie over the Thome decision. That type of discussion should have stayed in-house. I'm never going to argue that Guillen hasn't done MORE awful/egregious things that in and of themselves would be fireable offenses. The only problem I have is this whole b.s. notion of "rebuilding" and Williams actually being able to execute this vision when it goes against everything he's been taught and trained to do philosophically here in Chicago, which is to give his team a "good chance" at being competitive each and every year. The whole complacency behind giving him ANOTHER 2-3 years to clean up this mess, I don't think he deserves so much rope to hang himself, but that's just me. But Ozzie is more like Steve Alford than anyone I can think of, he's all about himself, his brand, and what's best for him. And I worry that the fate of the White Sox the next 3-5 years won't be very different from what's transpired with my former university's basketball program. Irrelevant. Occasional bright glimpses of the future and inspirational play, but nothing sustained and not even a glimmer of hope of making it to the post-season. They might be "doing things the right way" but that doesn't sell tickets, either. And they quickly got rid of an NCAA Coach of the Year in Todd Lickliter, he barely made it through 3 years before things got MUCH worse than they were under Alford, because apathy REALLY set in, people stopped caring and tuned out completely. That's what Greg and some of the others like Victory and Marty will happen with Ozzie gone. Unfortunately, it's a risk JR felt he had to take.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 10:47 PM) I think 8 One was at least 8 1/2 and the other was at much as 10 or 11 games, can't recall exactly off the top of my head.