caulfield12

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 09:24 PM) No him winning put them on the Map.. "HIM winning"....the manager doesn't win games, the players do. Good players=good manager Ozzie has said this himself 1,000 times. Jeff Torborg, Gene Lamont and Jerry Manuel all had good seasons managing the club in the last 20-30 years. Putting them on the map is such a subjective phrase. Paris Hilton could be named the manager of the White Sox, or Kim Kardashian, and that would get just as much, if not more attention, than Ozzie managing the Sox to the World Series title. Back then, it was all about the players, the team, and Ozzie stepping back and being on the outside looking in...now, things have reversed 180 degrees, the manager has become (in his own mind at least) more important than the team and organization.

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 09:24 PM) No him winning put them on the Map.. I think I'm going to have to side with the GM who put the roster together having more to do with 2005 than the manager. Just like 2009-2011 is more KW's doing than Ozzie's. When you bring in roughly 10 new players and manage to accomplish what they did with a $65 million dollar payroll, that in and of itself was more impressive than any leadership that Ozzie showed in holding the team together in the face of blowing a 15 game lead.

What will be more interesting would be if they ever did something, anything, to honor Williams. It would be pretty unprecedented. It's not like the guy is Branch Rickey or even Theo Epstein. Yet with how we erect statues and put pictures and names on the walls, anything is possible. As long as JR is the owner, it's 98% certain there will be some type of symbolic recognition for Ozzie unless he does something reprehensible while managing the morals...the managerial equivalent of Alomar spitting on Hirschbeck. (And yes, in the end, that didn't prevent him from making the HOF).

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 09:09 PM) What don't you get... Kenny was in from 01-03... Who knew the White Sox, what they do?????? 04-11, The White Sox were on the map.. His very presence put them on the map, lol? We'll test that theory soon enough when he has to compete in the NL East with another flawed roster. The main thing he has going for him is the excitement of a new beginning and a new stadium...but it only took a year for that effect to wear off in Minnesota or Washington (although the Twins' attendance is still excellent, the excitement is long gone). Another thing that happened is there was a vacuum that Ozzie stepped into with Ordonez, Lee and Valentin all leaving and Frank Thomas no longer the dominant force (due to injuries and time) that he once was...it was the right time and right place for Ozzie to become the manager, there's no doubt about that. But the last 3 years, the ONLY map we were on was the one of increasingly negative perception and publicity. KW has his share of the blame, but he hasn't intentionally created it to the extent Ozzie has...sure, we can talk forever about Dunn and Rios backfiring, and if the team doesn't pull out it during this next phase of Sox baseball, it won't be another manager, it will be KW leaving finally.

Okay...now it's starting to make sense, it's what happens when you're 12 hours or ahead (or behind) of a constantly shifting news story. The way it originally came off was that the organization named him interim then texted his firing (not a face-to-face meeting or over the phone). On the surface, it was made to seem very unprofessional and petty. So I guess Cowley really did get himself into the story, which is what he loves. Another thing that I found interesting....in some of the stories, it was noted how in recent years the SABR-oriented people (who that is in the front office beyond Hahn and maybe Gellinger I don't know) stopped hanging around on the field/dugout area during pre-game and batting practice. That there was pretty much a clear and complete rift between the KW/front office side and Ozzie's core group of Cora, Walker and Cox to a lesser extent.

What I'd like to see is some type of direct link or connection between SABR/statistical analysis and Martinez. There was the same debate in the past about Hahn.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_leagu...urn=mlb-wp21070 Yet another reason this feud will never die. There's absolutely zero reason they ever should have named him the interim manager for two games in the first place. Embarassing.

QUOTE (Real @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 11:00 AM) Cora and Walker and Baines and probably Cox are all going with Ozzie to FLA, rumor is Cooper stays The rumor is just Cora and possibly Vizquel.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 04:56 AM) I'd say it's something like this: 75% - Alomar 20% - Bell 4% - Martinez 1% - Other I'm rooting for Martinez. You'd have to think McEwing will at least get an interview shot because he's a big-time disciple of LaRussa.

I'm just glad we don't know when he bought those plane tickets to Spain. If it was when we were still legimately in the race, it would be even more evidence to support those who assert his heart hasn't been in it this year...or that he actually was managing to spite KW. “Obviously, I appreciate that he respected my decision,” Guillen said. “And anybody in Chicago or anyone in baseball that blames Kenny or Jerry or front-office people, they're wrong. “That's the decision I made, obviously for a lot of reasons. I will still live in Chicago. My home is in Chicago. The best thing about it, I leave here with my head up. “Jerry gave me an opportunity to play in the big leagues and gave me an opportunity to manage in the big leagues. What else can I ask the guy? Give me the opportunity to be free when he didn't have to? I respect that. To me, Jerry means more to me and my family now than he did in the past.” http://www.suntimes.com/sports Read more: http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2011092.../#ixzz1Z96iYQVE Barry Rozner of the Arlington Herald rips Guillen to shreds more than Rosenbloom Remembering Ozzie Posted by scotgreg on Tue, 09/27/2011 - 02:39 On the drive back home after a long, stunning day at U.S. Cellular Field, I had a chance to really think about what transpired. -Ozzie is gone, and I’m going to miss him. -Ozzie is going to be in a better place with the Marlins. -Eight years in the dugout, especially the White Sox’ dugout, is a long, long run. -As a working reporter, I’m going to miss Ozzie’s humor, brutal honesty and constant access. -As a working reporter, I was stunned by Ozzie's unedited ramblings about once a day. -As a friend for nearly two decades, I’m going to remember some really good times. When I was newly married and thinking about a vacation in Aruba, Ozzie told me to give him a head’s up because that’s where his boat was docked and I was free to use it. -When I was still new on the Sox beat, in 1995, I wrote a scathing column about the White Sox out in Anaheim, Calif. It was right after the strike and shortly before Gene Lamont was fired as manager. Looking back, I was pretty harsh and I took quite a few individual shots. When we got back home and I went to Comiskey Park for the opening game of the homestand, the column was posted in the clubhouse and most of the players were not happy to see me. One player pulled me aside and said: “Bleep them. Everything you wrote was true.” Thanks, Ozzie. -On a family vacation in Florida a few years ago, we caught some bad weather in St. Pete so I called Ozzie in Miami and asked him what the deal was in the Sunshine State. “It’s beautiful here,” he said. “Come on down. I was at the beach and everybody was dancing around naked.” How do you feel sorry for a guy like that? I actually feel happy for No. 13. These past two seasons were brutal, and you could see the end coming as soon as last spring. It’s over now, and I think it’s going to be a good change. I also think the heat is now squarely on GM Kenny Williams, without a doubt. The manager is always the first to go, but the GM puts the roster together and Kenny has made some major gaffes in recent seasons. There were obvious problems between Ozzie and KW, and I’m not going to rehash them all again. I’ll just wish Ozzie luck down in Miami and never forget the good times.

"Ozzie’s a colorful guy. You guys will love him. You’ll have a lot to write about. He’s a colorful guy. He knows this game," McKeon told reporters after Monday's game, according to The Miami Herald. (Manager Jack) McKeon also added this insight into Guillen's approach: “I liked the way he was able to control the players, especially the Latin players,” McKeon said. “He wasn’t afraid to jump on them and encourage them but also try to help them. He wasn’t worried about being their friend. He was going to tell it like it is. And that’s Ozzie–he tells it like it is.” Guillen has long been a candidate to be the Marlins' skipper. His relationship with the White Sox front office, in particular general manager Ken Williams, was often contentious, and a breakup seemed likely on many occasions. "Was it time for a change? I don't think so," Williams told reporters Monday night. "I guess things were accelerated. We had no intention of firing him. This was kind of acquiescing to some of his desires more than anything. It is what it is. I don't wish to expound on any of the peripherals to the degree that they become more of a story than they really are." FOXSports.com reported that at least one player would go to the White Sox as compensation for Guillen. ESPN Chicago reported that the Sox would acquire two minor leaguers. USA Today reported that the Sox are hopeful of receiving a "decent prospect" but won't get anyone on the Marlins' 40-man roster. Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2011...s#ixzz1Z8ktbWzV Have seen conflicting reports about it being a 3 or 4 year deal. The only number I've seen so far is $16 million for 4 years...just think, a $40 million savings compared to our bargain deal with Adam Dunn, haha.

QUOTE (Real @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 02:00 AM) I'm not sure what your point was, you can't possibly be saying the D'Backs situation is the rule, not the exception No, that can't be.. No, only that there are certain guys like Gibson who simply demand respect and can change the atmosphere/chemistry around quite quickly. Of course, that's not always the case. Sometimes no matter how talented the manager, he's not a good fit or the players just aren't good enough or performing through no fault of his own. Sometimes a grizzled old guy loses touch with the current generation of athletes. Lou Piniella with the Cubs, for example. But it's not like the DBacks got a huge infusion of talent in the offseason. They've basically won with 8 utility players and Justin Upton. Obviously, Hudson has helped a lot, too. But Ian Kennedy's become a Top 3 NL Cy Young candidate out of nowhere and many underperforming players turned their career trajectories around.

So Walker will quietly leave the White Sox at the end of the season, along with Baines? One would assume Cox is gone too. I read somewhere that Cora and quite possibly Omar Vizquel would be going with Ozzie to Florida.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 01:57 AM) Very true. Should be interesting to see how he rebuilds the team. He won the war vs. Ozzie now ...good luck turning this bunch into a winner, KW, considering payroll, and a pitching staff that consists of Floyd, Danks, Humber and Stewart and ?. That is a last place pitching staff. The bullpen is very unreliable. The new manager is just gonna get FRIED on here, cause we know how this board gets upset when the wrong choice is made. And the Sox have a bunch of relievers (with exception of Sale n Sergio) who fail a lot. And as great as Sergio is, he blew what, six saves? That's not exactly phenomenal, though I do like him n his potential. If Sale becomes a frontline starter, the rotation will be just fine. One thing that hasn't been brought up today is what will happen with Rick Hahn now.

QUOTE (Real @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 02:46 AM) also, lets get one thing straight, a new manager doesn't usually get the respect of his players in his first year and sometimes it takes a couple years for them to get used to the new guy i don't expect much now going in to 2012, whereas with Ozzie, I hoped talent and complacency would prevail, but with a new mgr, i'm not so sure Kirk Gibson and his coaching staff in Arizona might disagree with you. If anything, Ozzie was much more effective and had more respect from the players in 2004-06 than any point thereafter. The longer he was here, the greater the likelihood of him losing the team became.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 02:37 AM) I just read all the articles on the Trib and Sun Times Web sites and the players praised Ozzie. From reading the board I got the impression Konerko was blasting him, etc. AJ said he loved him like a member of the family. We read what we want to read into things. I don't think he looks selfish at all. I can't believe KW is winning this battle. Yet the basic feeling all around was that it was definitely time for him to move on....that the "regime had run its course." Nobody can take 2005 away from him or Sox fans. It's just unfortunate the last 3 seasons have really tarnished his tenure in Chicago. If he would have left for the Marlins job after leading the Sox to the playoffs in 2008, the feeling would be 100% different from most posters here.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 01:20 AM) Four years? Good for u, Ozzie Guillen. You sir are set for life 10 times over. Wish I had some of that money. I guess the new definition of rich has changed from $1 million to $4-5 million at some point in the last two decades.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 01:08 AM) Ozzie gets the moolah. Good for him. s***, double the salary according to Sun Times? Four mill a year? Take the money and run. Keeing KW is a fricking joke. Fire him as well and it'll be a better week for Sox fans. 4 years, $16 million guaranteed. 8X what he was set to make with the Sox for 2012. Ozzie's more about Ozzie these days than the White Sox. It's not like Forte or Alexei Ramirez and he was being woefully-underpaid. As Rosenbloom pointed out, he had a fair contract for 2012 and he didn't want to honor it. Surely, the writing was on the wall with many of the same underperforming players expected to be on the roster accompanied by the expected payroll slashing. He quit on the team when the going got rough. Another article mentioned that he already made $23+ million during his playing career and something like $10-15 million (he made $1.1 million in 2007) as a manager. With endorsements and autograph sessions and all those ancillary revenues, the guy has made roughly $40 million and yet he's always complaining about being poor. What world does he live in?

While the Marlins will grab plenty of headlines over the next few years, the real winner here may be the White Sox. They had to be tiring of Guillen's continual public blathering about his contract situation, especially considering a year remained at about $2 million. No one else could have gotten away with talking so much about themselves when the team was desperately trying to remain in the race. But that is the gift of Ozzie. He can act selfishly, even petulantly, and folks think it's funny. White Sox chairman Jerry Reinsdorf, who has long loved Guillen, met with the manager today. But Reinsdorf seemed to support his GM Williams more in recent months, according to people familiar with the situation. While Williams isn't exactly the picture of calm behind the scenes, he's quieter publicly and a better team player. One person familiar with Reinsdorf's thinking hinted that his first choice to replace Guillen may be someone currently managing in the big leagues, and the natural speculation will focus on the iconic Tony La Russa, who is among Reinsdorf's best friends and whom Reinsdorf has regretted firing as White Sox manager for more than two decades. La Russa is on a one-year deal with the Cardinals, who are still battling for the NL wild card. In 2003, Williams shocked folks by hiring Guillen over his old Blue Jays manager Cito Gaston after an interview in which Guillen challenged Williams, and fought with Williams. Unfortunately, the fighting never stopped, escalating in recent years with one of Guillen's sons unabashedly ripping his father's boss on Twitter. Their relationship never seemed the same after middle son Oney Guillen kept targeting Williams, according to people familiar with the situation. I wouldn't blame Williams for wanting Ozzie to go. If Ozzie can't contain his own son, how can he be expected to manage the team? Guillen will always be recalled for winning the first World Series in decades for the White Sox, in 2005, overcoming clubhouse dissension late in the season to roll through the playoffs with unhittable pitching and Ozzie pulling the strings. But the winning slowed down, and the dissension never did. It was time for the White Sox to stop the madness. Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writ...l#ixzz1Z8OvVgTB

F--- more years," said Guillen. "I want more money. I don't work here for years. No, I want more money. Years -- what, I'm going to die poor with the White Sox? Hell, no." Guillen wanted an extension and a significant raise from the $2 million or so the Sox were believed to be paying him. With the Marlins, who move into a new stadium next season, Ozzie will get both: more years AND more money. Lots of it. And with it, he said, will come happiness. Probably safe to say no one's going to have the personality that he has. I'll take the under on that. Ozzie's Ozzie. It's been a wild eight years. -- White Sox first baseman Paul Konerko "Life is about money," Guillen said. "People don't believe that. People are happy after they make money. F--- it." Reinsdorf was smart to agree to a divorce now -- not because Guillen has forgotten how to manage and win (he hasn't), but because a year of Guillen is like dog years. He can't help but wear out his welcome. http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/...g-ozzie-guillen

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 01:21 AM) Osvaldo seems like a AAA caliber SS. Had a real good overall season in 2010, but has been miserable this year. BA had him #5 Florida prospect heading into the year. No real concern about who's in this trade though. Osvaldo for Oswaldo? Too funny. It's like the Berry/Barry thing again with LA. At least KW has a sense of humor.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/site/newspap...,1331283.column I wonder if Buerhle was saying "shut up" more directed to Ozzie or just the whole situation in general with KW/Ozzie going back and forth, back and forth like a ping pong match. Will be interesting to see how this affects the situation with Buehrle returning, especially if Cooper's back. http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/rosen...,3561864.column Will be interested to greg775's reaction to this one...he really leveled the boom on Ozzie.

"I wish I had a dollar for every time that I had that thought, why did it have to come to this? But I don't have answers," Williams said, doing his best Kenny "The Genius" Williams upset act. "It's tough to pinpoint exactly where we got off track. Winning cures a lot of that. We are all very competitive around here, and ­sometimes with that competitive drive, frustration comes with it." Cowley yet again with the "Kenny "The Genius" Williams" label inserted into a story involving KW. He's more biased than Fox News. LOL. Can't even use that word related to a famous sign in the hills overlooking LA. http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/27/2426...-headed-to.html

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 26, 2011 -> 11:49 PM) Don't worry, Martinez will find a way to get it even if it's the property of someone else. Hmmm...wonder how many caught that one? It would be really interesting if Sandberg and Martinez were managing the Cubs and Sox. Would definitely dial up the intensity on that rivalry again.

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 26, 2011 -> 09:51 PM) Never said that, you bring in a vet.. if you truly going all in... If you watched Dunn the 2nd half of last year.. you wouldn't be telling me how great he was. Do we have the Red Sox, Phillies or Yankees payroll? They have glaring holes in their roster make-up, too, especially their rotations (Red Sox/Yankees). So basically you would have blocked Beckham and Morel coming into 2011? And you'd have spent another $8-10 million on a veteran closer? Sure must be nice to spend someone else's money.