caulfield12

One thing is for sure, if the Rays make the playoffs over the Red Sox (making it 3 out of 4 years), the legacy/magical mystery of Joe Maddon just passed AA. With the bad contracts for JD Drew, Crawford, Lackey, Dice-K....Epstein deserves almost as much heat as KW (but gets some breathing room due to 2007, the second title). The only difference is he has an additional $50 million to play around with than KW. But starting Lackey and Wakefield today is a testament to their ongoing rotation issues.

QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 07:45 PM) That would depend on who set the curriculum. If I hired the tutor and requested they do X, then I would change strategy in a hurry. I'd make a new decision based on the new strategy. Especially if another kid, much like mine, said how well the tutor helped him. And I would have fired Walker about three off seasons ago. Let's just say it's the standard "Greg Walker/KAPLAN" curriculum for test (game day batting execution). As you know, as a teacher, you're often more pressured to prepare the students to do better on the standardized state tests than the ACT/SAT. I actually witnessed this firsthand myself in Kansas City. The school district spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to bring KAPLAN tutors into high schools where the 20-25% of juniors and seniors who took the test and had aspirations of college resulted in an average score of 13.1 on the ACT. But none of the tutors could "change" or adapt from their standardized approach of just following the KAPLAN materials. They quickly realized the basic foundation in Math/English that they expected to find when they started the class simply didn't exist. In a sense, students who should have been in remediation (especially in math/science) were being asked to handle materials that would theoretically bump a low 20's ACT score into the mid or even high 20's (in a very idealistic world). The students quickly became frustrated with the increasing difficulty of the material and quickly tuned the tutors out because most of them didn't even have a glimmer of hope they could afford to pay for university.

TEX, are you legitimately arguing these points or you really just want to debate with Balta and everyone who's been trying to wear down DickAllen on the Walker question just as an intellectual exercise? Jose Contreras won 17 games in a row but he lost to Paul Byrd. Of course, that had nothing to do with our offense. And I know that was Dick's point, but do you have an even more implausible one?

Seriously, if you were the owner of the White Sox, and concerned with the franchise going forward, why would you take YET ANOTHER chance that Walker can turn around Beckham, Rios and Dunn? Don't you have to first find out if another coach can get something out of them before you totally write off the equivalent of a $100 million investment? Let's put it another way. You have just paid an expensive KAPLAN SAT/ACT tutor to increase your child's score and they've actually regressed in the two exams since their original score of 27. The second exam and third exam showed results of 25 and then 26. You heard another student (this is the Adam Dunn of the analogy) who was in all Honors/AP classes and had a 3.75 GPA actually got a 23 after working for two months with the same tutor. Would you keep paying that tutor your hard-earned money or try another approach? Based on a FULL THREE SEASONS of "failing" results, besides Paul Konerko, what strong support exists for Walker besides saying Rudy Jaramillo and Leo Mazzone failed with the Cubs and Orioles...and that change just for change's sake won't make bad hitters miraculously better?

Ozzie is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. So is KW. So when will it end, that is the question. Maybe Ozzie has pictures of KW engaged in S&M with another woman and that's what is protecting him until Oney tweets that one out into public.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 07:20 PM) But thanks to the identity of our GM, the White Sox change players more than any other team in MLB. Except the odds of any of that 25-35% 2011-12 roster turnover being Peavy/Beckham/Rios/Dunn is about 0.5% Castro Vizquel Tony Pena Frasor There's 16% already.

Besides Konerko this year, what has Greg Walker done? Konerko > the rest of the roster Maybe in JR's mind. If that's the case, I give up on this franchise until there's a new owner or Konerko/Buehrle are no longer around because it's truly hopeless to make any changes. Essentially, Paul Konerko gets to decide who we add before the July 31st deadline and who the hitting coach is as long as he's on the roster. KW can't fire/hire any of the coaching staff. Ozzie can't get rid of KW, etc. Sounds like a very dysfunctional arrangement. JR at some point should wake up and realize it's costing him money and fan support to continue on like this for much longer.

QUOTE (chisoxt @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 05:09 PM) Well. considering that Jackson had been with four teams in four years and had been a total enigma his whole career, was that a big surprise? Why did we have to gut our system of its two best pitching prospects for what amount to a Don Cooper project? Not to get down on you, but the whole basis of defending KW on the premise that "No one would have predicted that (fill in the blank)" is complete bull s*** when all it took was some common sense to realize that many of Kenny's all-in acquisitions were doomed from the start. . I highly doubt he's trying to defend KW. Boston somehow started 4-10, went a blazing 37 games over .500 and has now matched the White Sox's 4-18 run with a 5-19 of their own. They've given up 10 games now in the standings to the Rays. Amazing.

Clearly it was Brandon McCarthy and Joe Crede who led us to the 2005 post-season, not Contreras.

Only if MJ is playing RF (or CF) for the Sox instead of Viciedo, Rios or Quentin.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:53 PM) Loaiza fell completely apart in 2004, conveniently at the same time that public testing started though. Then Dick Allen might want to retract his Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez "credit taking." Actually, that makes KW look all the smarter...until he gave up Swisher for nothing to Cashman.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:45 PM) Technically, at those times...the White Sox's payroll was $55-$75 million. I'm just referring to the situation Cashman would face in Chicago if they traded jobs at the current moment. So yes, that 2004-2005 run for the Sox was more impressive than anything Cashman did, arguably. Then again, winning 4 out of 5 World Series and then almost winning again in 2001 against Arizona will probably trump the KW legacy. It's sort of like comparing Phil Jackson to Larry Brown. Give Brown a roster over time of 2 of the following .... Jordan/Pippen/Shaq/Kobe and he's the greatest NBA coach in history. Apples and oranges. On the other hand, it will be an interesting offseason if Boston chokes away their lead. Epstein might become available, but no way he'd pick the White Sox over the Cubs.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:40 PM) Sorry, dude. Contreras started game 1 of three consecutive playoff series after being banished by a club that had won a mega bidding war for his services (i.e. they gave up on him). That accomplishment >>>>>>>>> anything positive Walker has done. Gave up on Contreras AND El Duque. KW > Cashman Just kidding. But we'll never really know unless they traded positions for 5-7 years and Cashman had to rebuild the Sox with a $90-105 million payroll and no budget for the draft nor the ability to sign players from the Asian market, Central America, Venezuela or the Dominican.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:31 PM) I agree with what the results would be but that's not based on reality. Contreras had a little success with the Yankees in 2003. In fact, one of his most impressive performances was against the Sox, and of the 4 organizations he has pitched for, his highest ERA is with the Sox. He wasn't so great with the Sox for a while and I believe, as do others, El Duque had a lot to do with his White Sox success, but as is par for the course, any pitcher with success is because of Don Cooper. Any pitcher who isn't successful with the Sox is because either they weren't good or ballpark factors. Any hitter who struggles with the Sox is because Greg Walker is an idiot. Any hitter who is successful with the Sox is because they are just a good hitter. Walker has zero to do with it. We will see if the same line of thinking sticks with the new hitting coach. And what would your spin be if Beckham, Dunn or Rios had Top 10 MVP caliber seasons in 2012 with a new hitting coach? Dunn is an experienced veteran with a long baseball track record on the back of his TOPPS card and knows how to hit. He's almost in shape and 100% recovered from the appendectomy. Rios had success in Toronto (reaching the All-Star game) AND with Walker for 3 or 4 months out of 14 total months playing with the Sox. Beckham was the Rookie of the Year as voted on by his peers and a top first-round draft pick. In your same "anti-Cooper" world, then a new hitting coach wouldn't deserve any credit and you'd probably be upset by it because you would have to go on defending Walker even though he was out of baseball. So those same message board posters would back Cooper over Walker, why is that? Perception isn't reality? Only baseball insiders and scouts and front office personnel know and appreciate the true value of Mr. Walker?

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:10 PM) Have you seen the movie I take it? Nope, not too popular here in China, lol. I've read enough reviews by non-baseball writers to pick up on this as the major "drama/conflict" in the movie....along with his marital/fatherhood problems away from the park, which aren't the central focus. Supposedly, the A's get to the World Series the previous year. That obviously didn't happen. But it makes it seem as if there was even more pressure on him to keep his job when in reality their payroll was around $32 million and the Yankees were already outspending them by a factor of 4 or 5-1.

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 02:11 PM) How many players in his 11 years, have come through the system and became everyday players? Wait, in 05, you realize that every played peaked at the right time, or do you think Kenny/Ozzie knew that prior? Did you ever notice in 05, no matter who Ozzie called to the pen it seemed.. got the job done? Rowand Crede Michael Morse (29 homers in 2011) Chris Getz (for most of the past two seasons but replaced by Giovatella) Chris B. Young Ryan Sweeney Beckham Morel Alexei Ramirez Tadahito Iguchi Dayan Viciedo (2012) Actually, you just made a solid argument for him MAXIMIZING a lousy farm system severely retarded by JR's handcuffing him on the draft and international signings...to turn them into solid contributors from other organizations via trade. Which teams have spent the least amount of money on the draft overall or 1st round draft picks during KW's tenure? The Chicago White Sox.

And what is the park adjustment factor for losing 20-30 hits per season in Oakland on foul balls and balls that don't carry over the fence in night games or in April/May/September in the Bay Area? I didn't realize that Dice-K was quite that good for one year...but that only supports the notion that Cooper did a superior job with Contreras because he didn't ever come close to that level of success with the Yankees. It's the same thing with those Cooper critics blaming him for Jake Peavy this season. If he was the same Peavy who had a devastating slider, 95 MPH fastball, pitched half his games in PETCO and against mostly lousy offenses in the NL West AND WAS 100% HEALTHY, then you would have the right to criticize Cooper for Jake's 2011 season. So, once again...if we do a poll question, will you have any doubt that more would agree that Cooper helped Jose significantly more in 2005 than Greg Walker helped Jermaine Dye?

Saying Ozzie would have gotten fired had they lost big in 2007 is the same thing as Moneyball making it out that Beane could possibly have gotten fired for a .500 record in 2002. It's just completely out of the realm of possibility. That might be the single biggest flaw in a Moneyball movie for a real baseball fan...REAL fans knew/know there was no actual threat of him losing his job, whereas many that go to see the film will have no idea and just root entirely from an underdog standpoint not unlike the Blind Side, Jim Morris in THE ROOKIE or the 1980 US hockey team.

Wouldn't it be a tie if the Yankees beat the Red Sox twice and the Rays win? Ellsbury now has 30 homers, 38 steals and 100 RBI's. Quite a season. Clearly the best leadoff hitter in baseball (along with Jose Reyes) and Top 3 in the AL MVP race.

1) Ozzie's being brought to South Florida as much as a PR move...to be the new "face of the franchise" and help to sell tickets to the Hispanic population of South Florida...nobody would accuse the Yankees of hiring or wanting to hire Cooper having anything to do with selling tickets or bringing back to his roots, etc. 2) Jermaine Dye had a much longer track record of success with the Braves, Royals and A's. It's not inconsistent to say Cooper would get MORE credit for Dice K. Dice K hasn't even had one completely successful year with the Red Sox compared to expectations. In fact, no Japanese pitcher in history has had sustained success over more than a 2-3 year period as a starter. Hideo Nomo is the benchmark there. You will turn around and compare him to Contreras, but I'd still guess MORE fans of the Sox would give Cooper credit for turning around Jose than Greg Walker turning around Jermaine Dye in 2005. That's not to mention the fact that a pitching injury like Dice-K has/had is usually a career-killer, whereas NUMEROUS players (especially power hitters and not slappy speed guys have recovered from broken legs). Should we have a poll question about it? 3) Mazzone and Cox were also something of a package deal, like Guillen/Walker. I hardly doubt Mazzone at his age is hurting for money or desperate for a job.

I asked 1000 random Chinese people over the weekend in Shanghai and they all preferred Don Cooper to Greg Walker. They also said they would like to buy Ozzie a Tsingtao beer if he ever made it over here. And that they didn't understand that they played baseball in South Florida, they thought it was only beaches and LeBron/DWade show. And Greg Walker is my second cousin and I still want him gone.

For KW to read those quotes and look back on this stretch in terms of his brash talk after 2005....his taunting of DET for the Cabrera deal only putting them in better position to contend with us, dynasties, taking the city back and winning multiples championships, having a whole new generation of White Sox fans, etc. FAIL, FAIL, FAIL, FAIL, EPIC FAIL

QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 08:54 AM) As Cooper ever produced an ace? Cy Young winner? League leader in anything besides innings? Has any player come out and endorsed him? Ummmm, Esteban Loaiza and Jose Contreras say HELLO. In 2003, and 2005/06, those were the two dominant pitchers in the AL for huge stretches of those seasons. The White Sox have led the American League (and I think the entire majors) in quality starts pitched since 2003. If not the most important stat, it's certainly one of the Top 3 if you're going to judge a staff (WHIP would be another). What offensive statistic can Greg Walker claim? Leading in HBP? Mark Buehrle is the only common pitcher we can look at over the entire decade and he's absolutely maxxed out the results he can get....or would you argue he should have been in Cy Young contention? On the other hand, Greg Walker has Carlos Quentin's 2008 season...although I never read anywhere that Carlos gave all the credit for his MVP run to Mr. Walker. Maybe we need to do like WSI and have our own version of Mark L. or whatever from Idaho interview every single pitcher that has pitched for the Sox and see how of their success they attribute to Don Cooper.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 07:24 AM) First off the New York Yankees weren't looking for a hitting coach. Secondly, the Yankees hired Larry Rothschild, so he must be the second greatest pitching coach in history. I have no idea what role Cooper played with the Hudson trade. I do know they said that Cooper had been dying to work with Jackson, and Jackson was pretty good with the Sox, however, you were saying Morel was struggling and if Walker had the answers, why did it take so long? I just countered with Hudson, because he wasn't very impressive before he was traded and suddenly became unhittable, and even had some comments about how they do things differently in AZ. Your posts are just the typical Don Cooper is responsible for all great things by pitchers, and anything that goes wrong is clearly not his problem vs. Greg Walker is at fault if anything goes wrong with the hitters but if they are doing well its because at one time they were highly touted or have had success elsewhere. Its been argued too much. The bottom line is they are and always have been looked at differently. Its amazing the Sox are 9th in the AL in ERA. That's not WS material. The good news is Walker is out and next year we will see a new hitting coach and the White Sox offense will take off just like the Cubs offense did when they brought in the HOF hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo. What were they at the time of the Jackson trade? I would guess they were somewhere between 4th and 6th. Why would you expect the pitching to do so much better than the hitters? Are you suddenly expecting the same results as the Padres, Mariners, Tigers and Giants get because of their pitch-friendly outfields? Your facile comparison of ERA isn't adjusting AT ALL for the park they play 81 of their home games in. Why were we 10th or 11th in the American League for most of this season in scoring runs, the number that is much more relevant than batting average (sorry Greg and Juan Pierre). Why don't we hit well in one of the easiest parks to hit a home run in? Why have we been far below average at home compared to the rest of the AL from 2009-2011? How many runs have been charged to the pitching staff that were plays which/could should have been made by Juan Pierre or Alex Rios but weren't ruled as errors? Are you taking that into account, as well? Rios and Pierre have been atrocious in the outfield for much of this season. Now what, you're going to argue they were first in the AL in offense after the first week of the season? Rudy Jaramillo is one example. And it's not like the Cubs' offense isn't better than ours.

Surprised nobody has commented on this movie yet. With how bad the White Sox are, I guess everyone's watching football but you'd think at least one person here would have seen it.