caulfield12

1) Ozzie's being brought to South Florida as much as a PR move...to be the new "face of the franchise" and help to sell tickets to the Hispanic population of South Florida...nobody would accuse the Yankees of hiring or wanting to hire Cooper having anything to do with selling tickets or bringing back to his roots, etc. 2) Jermaine Dye had a much longer track record of success with the Braves, Royals and A's. It's not inconsistent to say Cooper would get MORE credit for Dice K. Dice K hasn't even had one completely successful year with the Red Sox compared to expectations. In fact, no Japanese pitcher in history has had sustained success over more than a 2-3 year period as a starter. Hideo Nomo is the benchmark there. You will turn around and compare him to Contreras, but I'd still guess MORE fans of the Sox would give Cooper credit for turning around Jose than Greg Walker turning around Jermaine Dye in 2005. That's not to mention the fact that a pitching injury like Dice-K has/had is usually a career-killer, whereas NUMEROUS players (especially power hitters and not slappy speed guys have recovered from broken legs). Should we have a poll question about it? 3) Mazzone and Cox were also something of a package deal, like Guillen/Walker. I hardly doubt Mazzone at his age is hurting for money or desperate for a job.

I asked 1000 random Chinese people over the weekend in Shanghai and they all preferred Don Cooper to Greg Walker. They also said they would like to buy Ozzie a Tsingtao beer if he ever made it over here. And that they didn't understand that they played baseball in South Florida, they thought it was only beaches and LeBron/DWade show. And Greg Walker is my second cousin and I still want him gone.

For KW to read those quotes and look back on this stretch in terms of his brash talk after 2005....his taunting of DET for the Cabrera deal only putting them in better position to contend with us, dynasties, taking the city back and winning multiples championships, having a whole new generation of White Sox fans, etc. FAIL, FAIL, FAIL, FAIL, EPIC FAIL

QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 08:54 AM) As Cooper ever produced an ace? Cy Young winner? League leader in anything besides innings? Has any player come out and endorsed him? Ummmm, Esteban Loaiza and Jose Contreras say HELLO. In 2003, and 2005/06, those were the two dominant pitchers in the AL for huge stretches of those seasons. The White Sox have led the American League (and I think the entire majors) in quality starts pitched since 2003. If not the most important stat, it's certainly one of the Top 3 if you're going to judge a staff (WHIP would be another). What offensive statistic can Greg Walker claim? Leading in HBP? Mark Buehrle is the only common pitcher we can look at over the entire decade and he's absolutely maxxed out the results he can get....or would you argue he should have been in Cy Young contention? On the other hand, Greg Walker has Carlos Quentin's 2008 season...although I never read anywhere that Carlos gave all the credit for his MVP run to Mr. Walker. Maybe we need to do like WSI and have our own version of Mark L. or whatever from Idaho interview every single pitcher that has pitched for the Sox and see how of their success they attribute to Don Cooper.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 25, 2011 -> 07:24 AM) First off the New York Yankees weren't looking for a hitting coach. Secondly, the Yankees hired Larry Rothschild, so he must be the second greatest pitching coach in history. I have no idea what role Cooper played with the Hudson trade. I do know they said that Cooper had been dying to work with Jackson, and Jackson was pretty good with the Sox, however, you were saying Morel was struggling and if Walker had the answers, why did it take so long? I just countered with Hudson, because he wasn't very impressive before he was traded and suddenly became unhittable, and even had some comments about how they do things differently in AZ. Your posts are just the typical Don Cooper is responsible for all great things by pitchers, and anything that goes wrong is clearly not his problem vs. Greg Walker is at fault if anything goes wrong with the hitters but if they are doing well its because at one time they were highly touted or have had success elsewhere. Its been argued too much. The bottom line is they are and always have been looked at differently. Its amazing the Sox are 9th in the AL in ERA. That's not WS material. The good news is Walker is out and next year we will see a new hitting coach and the White Sox offense will take off just like the Cubs offense did when they brought in the HOF hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo. What were they at the time of the Jackson trade? I would guess they were somewhere between 4th and 6th. Why would you expect the pitching to do so much better than the hitters? Are you suddenly expecting the same results as the Padres, Mariners, Tigers and Giants get because of their pitch-friendly outfields? Your facile comparison of ERA isn't adjusting AT ALL for the park they play 81 of their home games in. Why were we 10th or 11th in the American League for most of this season in scoring runs, the number that is much more relevant than batting average (sorry Greg and Juan Pierre). Why don't we hit well in one of the easiest parks to hit a home run in? Why have we been far below average at home compared to the rest of the AL from 2009-2011? How many runs have been charged to the pitching staff that were plays which/could should have been made by Juan Pierre or Alex Rios but weren't ruled as errors? Are you taking that into account, as well? Rios and Pierre have been atrocious in the outfield for much of this season. Now what, you're going to argue they were first in the AL in offense after the first week of the season? Rudy Jaramillo is one example. And it's not like the Cubs' offense isn't better than ours.

Surprised nobody has commented on this movie yet. With how bad the White Sox are, I guess everyone's watching football but you'd think at least one person here would have seen it.

Weren't we picked for 4th or 3rd coming into 2005 and 2008? The main difference is those teams had some flexibility built into the salary structures to easily make changes on the run. With our luck, the Twins (who could lose 100 games) will get another Joe Mauer and we'll be stuck with another "safe" college player who will never become a superstar with the 12th or 13th pick.

Why don't the New York Yankees want to interview Greg Walker to be their hitting coach? Why did the Sox deny permission to speak to Cooper if he wasn't seen as an overall "plus" to the organization? Konerko and Rowand were pretty good before they ever became starters for the White Sox. Both were high draft picks. AJ Pierzynski had already been an All-Star with the Twins. Jermaine Dye was a consistent 24-30 homer guy when he was healthy. The only reason they were able to get him so cheaply was because of the broken leg and concerns about his diminished range playing the outfield every day. So, let's say we credit Walker with Lillbridge, Morel and DeAza. The counterargument....we'll name 12-15 pitchers who were basically given up for dead by their organizations and who made significant impacts for the Chicago White Sox. Konerko is the only one who has steadily improved. Quentin and Ramirez both have regressed from 2008. So have Danks and Floyd. That's yet another big reason we're nowhere close to first place, all the other blatant weaknesses nothwithstanding. Do you really believe that trading Hudson had more to do with Cooper than KW? Using the same logic, Cooper was a miracle worker to get what he got out of Brandon McCarthy...preventing him from fallling apart physically until we could make the trade for the more durable Danks. The Beckham situation might be 100% on Gordon, for all we know. We do know that what they're doing simply isn't working or Gordon isn't listening or capable of taking what they're practicing and applying it consistently in game situations. If there are enough players in that category, usually the coach is changed before you trade or give away $75-100 million worth of investment. Maybe the majority of this team has tuned out KW, Ozzie, the entire coaching staff, who knows? At this point, I'll give up Cooper or Buehrle if it means Guillen, Walker and KW are all gone, too. Really, nobody can be blamed or praised for anything because coaches are just facilitators and not responsible for the performance on the field...until it becomes easier to fire them than to replace the entire roster.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 08:44 PM) Morel did well in AAA, Beckham did well in AAA, so if it automatically just rolls over...................................please explain. If anything, that would argue the minor league coaches helped the most to build his success and when he eventually failed and the league adjusted to him, Walker didn't have any answers until halfway through 2010 and none this year. By the way, DET really seemed to go on a tear when their "beloved" pitching coach was fired mid-season. It doesn't always help as a rule, but quite a few times it does.

Konerko, Thome (Hall of Fame track before he arrived), AJP (had put up OPS numbers elsewhere than he has in a "hitter's park", Dye (what did Walker do to fix him besides KW simply signing a talented guy who was injured?), CLee (really?), Magglio (double really?), Crede (maybe), Iguchi (he was already an established veteran in Japan, unless you can find some direct quotes attributing his success to any work with Walker), Everett (he was a much better hitter with other teams before he came to Chicago), Ramirez (once again...based on reputation/expectations, but he has regressed since his rookie year and claiming Ramirez is a lot like criticizing Walker now because Viciedo hasn't hit for any power in 2011), Rowand (including Crede and Rowand is a lot like listing Danks-Floyd-Quentin-Ramirez in the KW curriculum vitae while conveniently skipping everything which has happened the last 3 years as if it didn't exist)[/i] How has Alexei Ramirez improved as a hitter since 2008? He pulls nearly every ball to the left side of the infield. He can't bunt. He's not a good situational hitter, taking nearly the same approach from AB to AB and no matter what the count is. A guy with his speed and ability hitting into so many double plays? He's been the most frustrating player (after Beckham/Dunn/Rios) to watch offensively this season. He's left perhaps more important runners in key situations in scoring position than any Sox hitter not in the aforementioned AXIS OF EVIL. As far as credit goes, Walker deserves SOME for Morel. But you can just as easily argue that he didn't get Brent to take the approach he's currently using when the games actually mattered or counted. If you look at his career history, he's always adjusted and improved at every level in the 2nd half of each season, albeit much more quickly than he did this year (obviously, the majors is the biggest jump). That seems more to do with Morel as a baseball player and his baseball IQ than anything to do with Walker per se.

We're all one of the worst offenses in the majors with one of the most expensive rosters, to boot. Dunn and Rios with historically bad seasons, especially considering their salaries. Beckham not far behind. Morel for four months was basically useless offensively. Pierre the first 2 months as well. Some would consider all the money saved by simply erasing Teahen from the roster a victory. Oh, yeah, yet another offensive bust. Nobody in the offseason is going to be citing the pitching as the main reason yet another Sox team crumbled. But with Buehrle leaving (possibly), maybe now's the best time to just totally change out the entire coaching staff and front office. And yes, most here would it consider it a lot more likely that, for example, Jake Peavy will finally have a good/healthy season in 2012 (if Cooper stays) than for anyone to believe Dunn/Rios/Beckham will improve dramatically if Walker does. It's not really fair to compare the pitching staff without Jackson versus the current version with Stewart unless you want to blame KW. And why are hitters always assumed to get at least one full offseason to make any progress with swing changes whereas Cooper is supposed to "fix" Stewart from the first start he makes?

The Ozzie Plan defense works a LITTLE bit better than the "who you'd rather share a beer or hang out with at Applebee's" defense.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 23, 2011 -> 10:39 PM) I'm glad you think Humber is headed to the HOF, but he was a top prospect who had elbow surgery. He was the prize for Johan Santana. We'll see how he does next season, he was a lot better than most believed he would be this year. Floyd was a #4 pick I believe. But he also lost 3-4 MPH on his fastball and was ditched by the Twins and Royals after getting just a couple of starts....2 at the most....in both places, or maybe it was 0. Whatever it was, it wasn't much. And then the A's left him unprotected. Humber's situation is a lot more impressive than any hitters who can be claimed on behalf of Walker.

QUOTE (MAX @ Sep 23, 2011 -> 06:39 PM) Its hard to argue with your opinion when its based on . . . "Um no"? The sox did better than 72 wins this year, and a lot more went wrong than those two. Those two are likely to make some regression toward their career averages on top of it. If they are underperforming and they get benched in mid june, this team will have a shot at the division. I think they may have had 86 or so wins if that had happened this year. I'll just add the caveat that I sincerely doubt Quentin, Danks, Thornton, Floyd and Buehrle will all be back. It's hard to expect a repeat performance out of DeAza or Lillibridge. Viciedo should be much better...but it won't make a huge difference if he's basically just replacing Quentin. Other than that...the only area where we could/should have significant improvement is if Morel keeps up his late-season power binge. It's really hard to count on much of anything from Beckham at this point in time.

Well, there's a lot of sound research and empirical data that suggest that forcing kids to sit all day long at a desk is counter-productive. Of course, if you let them move around somewhat more freely...then the classroom management police will be offended. Still, in many countries around the world, they do morning exercises in class and basically force the kids to move around.

To give Mr. Lautner his due, he is a martial-arts dervish with perfectly sculptured abs. His acting, however, is another matter. I can’t recall another teenage star so opaque. If his physiognomy — recessed eyes that don’t seem to focus, a wide snub nose and Elvis-y lips — conjure Neanderthal manhood after a cosmetic makeover, his boyish monotone with its utter lack of inflection suggests that he is really an advanced robot simulating human speech without registering emotion or even comprehension. New York Times having their way with the "poor" guy. I do think if I had to choose, I'd rather be forced to watch another Zac Effron movie than Lautner or Pattinson.

Personal accountability/responsibility don't exist. Better to lie in front of your peers than "lose face." In China, we don't have the behavior issues like in the US, but plagiarism doesn't exist as an academic concept that's acknowledged or respected. On the other hand, Asian students are much more appreciative and thankful.

Meanwhile, the new "Team Jacob" movie Abduction had zero positive critical reviews the last time I checked. You just don't see that happen very often. Check that 48 negative, 2 positive. Well, personally, I would have given him one star just for PNC Park and him wearing a certain Pirates' jersey. - 1/2 for it being the quite ugly late 60's/early 70's Pirate jersey.

QUOTE (MAX @ Sep 23, 2011 -> 06:33 PM) Two bad contracts won't kill this team if we have the right manager. Peavy has a buyout after this year right? Dunn or rios could bounce back to somewhere near their career average, but they won't need to if some of the young sox continue to develop. Ummm...no. The White Sox are going to be lucky to get to 72-75 wins if the same thing happens with next year's Rios/Dunn. For sure, they will tear apart the team at the All-Star Break this time around and start getting ready for 2013.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainmen...0,2815646.story Jonah Hill in Chicago, on throwing out first pitch at Sox game and Moneyball.

If you want to argue about Cooper, it has been the "regression" with Floyd and Danks compared to where they were in 2008. Chris Sale might have had the greatest improvement from first to second half of the season...and how many draft picks from 2010 are producing at his level (as pitchers) already in the majors? Santos, overall, still has to be a huge feather in his cap if you look at where he came from just 2-3 years ago. Then you get the other argument....that Sweeney, Getz, Anderson, Fields, Borchard, C. Carter, Brandon Allen, etc., never established themselves as legit starters after leaving the organization. Of course, that could just as easily be blamed on bad scouting/talent identification as anything to do with Walker in particular. Unfortunately, we'll never know what might have happened had Chris Young played at the major league level for us. And, to go along with what southside was saying...there haven't been any pitching prospects who were as highly-touted as Beckham as a middle infielder who experienced success and then completely fell off the face of the map under Walker. Rios and Dunn became two of the 10 worst hitters in the major leagues, and Beckham and Morel weren't far behind for most of the season. Dick Allen will argue that a higher percentage of payroll was invested in the starting rotation than the position players, but that's going to be the case with 75-80% of major league rosters, particularly the most competitive teams year-in and year out, like the Phillies, Giants, Rangers or Red Sox.

But shouldn't Tim Laker be more credited with DeAza's success than Walker? He worked with him in Charlotte (correct me if I'm wrong) for parts of two seasons...there's no way you could argue Alejandro has had more exposure to Walker than Laker. Contreras got hurt and got old. Not sure how to blame Cooper for that one. His career in NY was to the point where they had to subsidize a large part of his Sox salary. I would think if Cooper had someone like Dice-K Matsuzaka to work with next season and he won the Cy Young (just throwing out a hypothetical) that Cooper would deserve a ton of credit, yes? I also don't think it's especially fair to criticize Don Cooper for Jake Peavy this season...the guy's coming off a once-in-a-lifetime injury that's never been surgically-repaired (for a pitcher) in history. So who's to say that Jake and Cooper aren't absolutely maxxing out the best he can give? It's easy to say look at his 2007 stats in PETCO in a weaker hitting division (outside of the Dodgers) when he had a 95 MPH fastball and devastating slider. He doesn't have anything out there...for about 50-60% of his starts this season, just pitching on competitiveness and guile.

But that's only maybe 3 names. If someone wants to claim Morel or Lillibridge as great successes...you're welcome to assert that. We haven't even mentioned the likes of Matt Thornton, Jose Contreras, Jon Garland, Jenks, etc. Quentin was one of the DBacks' top prospects at one point. He wasn't to the level of a D'Angelo Jimenez or Julio Ramirez who was simply another busted prospect. And the thing is Walker couldn't take credit for building on that success or Quentin improving he staying at a level comparable to 2008. He regressed.

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 22, 2011 -> 06:02 PM) If you don't win the World Series, your team isn't successful.. So Ozzie and KW have both failed at this for the past 6 years...therefore, they should both be gone? Yes?

Well, it's probably just as likely that the Detroit Tigers are motivated by GM commercials starring Eminem than by playing the Chicago White Sox these days.