caulfield12

QUOTE (SoIL @ Sep 15, 2011 -> 05:31 PM) Now that I'm not at work, I'll expand on this a bit. Before the 2005 season, Kenny asked, or Ozzie told him what kind of team he (Ozzie) wanted. A leadoff hitter who could get on and steal a base. Better defense and better pitching. Kenny did a great job of doing just that, and what was the result? Since then Kenny has tried to get a big power hitter and a big time starter almost every year, and we haven't been back to the Series since. Maybe it's coincidence, maybe we caught lighting in a bottle, but the 2005 formula did work. Ozzie didn't bring in the Colon's, Wells, Rios and Dunn's (although he may have had input). I thought these moves looked great at the time, but it hasn't worked. What I see is that someone, (Kenny, maybe Ozzie or our scouts) have not been paying attention. The big moves have not worked, the smaller ones for the most part have been successful. In retrospect, we should have kept many of our minor leaguers and let them develop. I hope that is what happens in the future. I'm less and less convinced that stocking up on prospects just to trade them away for the last "piece of the puzzle" is a good philosophy. Actually, I do think it is a bad strategy. I don't really care about Ozzie's outbursts, even if I do wish he had more of a filter. I do think he takes pressure off the team by drawing attention to himself. So again, give Ozzie some BASEBALL players and quit drafting the "best athlete" and draft some baseball players and the Sox should be successful. Contreras (taking on his contract, mostly) and Freddy Garcia weren't big moves? The more you look back at 2005 (with how Pods/Iguchi/small ball have been overstated despite the 200+ homers)...the one thing that seems impossible to replicate ever again was the success and virtual lockdown quality of that bullpen.

As far as Sosa goes back then....it was his speed and arm and fielding ability I liked so much. Ironic that he became the opposite of that over time, a truly one-dimensional player. But with the White Sox, he was considered something of a flop and they discarded him for George Taco Bell.

Okay...flops, Felix Diaz, Arnie Munoz and Jesus Pena. All the women had a crush on Kirk McCaskill, lol.

But didn't Betemit also lead the entire major leagues in spring training home runs before that season started? Doesn't Walker get some credit for ST stats, lol? Heck, Josh Fields looked good that spring as well, if I remember correctly.

Sosa when he first came up in 1989...aka The Panther at that time.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 14, 2011 -> 11:49 PM) Your top two bullpen options make the minimum salary, you think that money doesn't matter? I've never seen a story in my lifetime of following baseball where the highlight of an article was the coaches wanting the team to finish 2nd instead of 3rd. Seems kind of ridiculous after hearing the "All In" mantra constantly throughout the season. That's the problem with the White Sox for most of the last decade. Satisfaction with finishing 2nd and/or .500 or slightly above.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 15, 2011 -> 03:14 AM) I know but this isn't about individual seasons. I said Mark was the best pitcher in Sox history and I was flamed for it. He's da best. MODERN history, though...which for most, is since roughly 1983 or so.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 15, 2011 -> 12:41 AM) He made it it do to longevity. If it were individual seasons...Fernandez, Black Jack, Wynn, Loaiza, etc. all beat Mark. And Jose Contreras 05-06 and LaMarr Hoyt...arguably Thigpen for his saves record as well.

http://www.boxofficemagazine.com/reviews/2011-09-moneyball One of the first Moneyball reviews...glowing marks overall for Pitt and the movie itself, especially the screenwriting. Don't remember the A's being in the World Series though, wonder if the reviewer was simply confused by the baseball action or the team actually making the Series instead of being defeated by the Yankees/Twins, etc., was a change from real life events? Hope not.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 14, 2011 -> 10:42 PM) 1.) Black Jack over Mark? No, not long enough career. 2.) Fernandez and Bannister? Please. 3.) Horlen and Peters? No. 4.)Ed Walsh and oldies? Maybe, I said modern history. I'm talking about careers in a Sox uniform BTW. Floyd Bannister vs. Mark is ridiculous insult to Mark. 2.) I am not living in 05 world. I said basically get rid of one of the two. I chose KW to move upstairs and keep Oz. 3.) Goose; no, not with Sox long enough; Pierce, Lyons, Cicotte, Hoyt, Wynn ... I said modern history. Face it, Mark is the best or one of the very best 1-2-3 Sox starters of all time modern era. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/836841-...history/page/16 Here's one that agrees with Greg. The other "modern-day" Sox pitchers ranked were Contreras, Garland, Garcia, LaMarr Hoyt, Jenks, McDowell, Wilson Alvarez and Bobby Thigpen. Alex Fernandez probably just missed...his Sox career was just a little too short, although I think he was more "impactful" than the likes of Garland, for example.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 14, 2011 -> 09:23 PM) Laker deserves a promotion at this point. The irony is that Laker was a pretty abysmal hitter. It's one of the reasons I've never been for Frank Thomas as a hitting coach, but maybe he would be really good. Usually the greatest hitters/players, especially one with such a unique, non-replicable swing, don't make the best coaches.

Rios Dunn Beckham Quentin (if he's not traded) Ramirez Morel Flowers Basically everyone on the team but Konerko and AJ. As far as Lillibridge goes for 2012, whether a new approach is wise (cutting down on the swing to make contact and putting more balls in play but sacrificing power) is a coin with two sides of debate. DeAza has clearly excelled in his opportunities...but do we credit Tim Laker more for the success of DeAza, Flowers (well, relative success compared to expectations) and Viciedo than Greg Walker? Does Walker deserve ANY credit for DeAza performing so well?

In recent days, Guillen has been more vocally protective of his coaches and pointed out they still have some financial rewards at stake. The average full-share for each member of a second-place team is about $10,000 and the Sox are battling the Indians for that. "You know what's funny?" Guillen said. "Some coaches might need the $5,000, $3,000 (extra) to be in second place. … They can buy Christmas gifts for their kids. "Maybe the players don't need that, but some coaches do. Just think about them and make sure we win second place." Very inspirational stuff for the fans!!! Sometimes I think Ozzie is more out of touch with the everyday fan than ... well, that's for political discussion and another area of SoxTalk.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense, since the argument about the White Sox possibly being responsible for Manny Ramirez's deal with the Dodgers when the McCourts and MLB were feuding.... Heck, the Trump organization is still paying Herschel Walker on his New Jersey Generals contract.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 14, 2011 -> 05:41 PM) 1.) I already said I didn't want Juan back, even though I respect what he made out of his season. I also said I'd cut Dunn and keep Rios and make him fourth outfielder just because of the contract. In a perfect world, yes I'd cut both. I'd resign Mark. Sign Ozzie to a 4 year extension; move Kenny to another job. You're really going to eat $44 million? After just one season? You have to try trading him for a change of scenery type guy...like Jason Bay or Chone Figgins or anyone. As has been mentioned over and over in this thread, very few teams in baseball have that kind of money sitting around to make a lump-sum payment in 2012. The White Sox arguably are going to lose $5-15 million already, as it stands. And then keeping Rios on the bench...where he's obviously going to be a negative (some would say cancerous) presence around a group of younger incoming ballplayers, that's a recipe for bad chemistry right off the bat. And if Rios sits, there's no way you can trade him for the next 3 years...and his defense has been pretty awful, as well. He's not even an obvious defensive replacement in CF this year. And no way he can get out of offensive slump playing just a couple of times a week.

QUOTE (JoshPR @ Sep 14, 2011 -> 05:18 PM) Wow excuse me black jack, Alex Fernandez, Floyd bannister, Joel horlen, Gary peters, Ed Walsh..... Goose Gossage (not here so long), Billy Pierce, Ted Lyons (interesting fact, 2nd highest ERA of any HOF pitcher), Ed Cicotte, Hoyt Wilhelm, Early Wynn, etc.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 14, 2011 -> 03:23 PM) the only answer to underachieving players is to cut them, even if its the first year of a huge contract. its impossible for a manager to simply bench them and try it again next year. If that was the case, the White Sox would have cut Rios after 2009? Which would have made zero sense...if you look at how he played the first 3-4 months of 2010.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 11:20 PM) Apparently the Sox operate some bizarro franchise. Rowand and Tejada DFA'd from the same team on the same day, Andruw Jones bought out, Chone Figgins benched, Manny Ramirez given away 2x, Rios given away, Gary Mathews JR benched, Zito benched, and on and on and on....except for the White Sox, who base their playing time on salary and salary only I guess. Ridiculous of course, but only if you don't have an irrational love for a manager who doesn't have a single thing going for him that you can defend anymore. In all fairness, waiving/releasing either Dunn or Rios at this point would mean eating 2-3X what ANY franchise in MLB has ever done with an individual player....which was Russ Ortiz' deal. But yeah, the Dodgers essentially bought out their entire outfield of Pierre, A. Jones and finally Ramirez.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 08:16 PM) The report said the Sox offered 3 years $48 million and Detroit signed him for 4 years $50 million. If it was a token offer, and the report was accurate, they were playing with fire. That can't be true, or he would have taken the White Sox deal if he really wanted to play for Ozzie. Rational/logical decision-making would say that he could get well oer $2 million+ in 2014 for his services.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 08:07 PM) Floyd with another Peavyesque performance. Looks like its going to be good for 5 innings, then the roof caves in. It's a crapshoot to figure out who to trade, Floyd or Danks, and which one has the most value at this point. I guess Cooper would have a lot better feel than anyone. By the way, was there ever any "falling out" between Hudson and Cooper or "miscommunication/lack of communication"? You just wonder about how someone with such a great eye for talent would give up on the guy after just 3 starts? Did he have a bad reputation in the minor league system for not working well with the coaches? Gio Gonzalez, that one was on KW...but the Hudson deal is mystifying. How much of it was Cooper thinking he could max out Jackson's potential versus uncertainty out of what they could get out of Hudson in Chicago in the heat of a pennant race against an offense like Minnesota's in 2010.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 08:09 PM) I pasted a link on another thread, before the Sox signed Dunn they supposedly offered Martinez $48 million for 3 years. He took Detroit's 4 year offer for a couple million more. Lost out on Damon, Cabrera and Martinez because of a dearth of prospects and/or the willpower to get a deal done. You wonder how serious they were about Victor, or if it was one of their "token" offerings like to Rowand or Torii Hunter in which they had a 90-95% certainty they'd come up short but still gets brownie points for trying?

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 08:58 PM) Sure glad we got Dunn and not VMart. Gavin couldn't have made worse pitches to VMart in that AB. The irony as well, both Martinez and Cabrera are Venezuelan. And yet Ozzie seemingly never wanted Martinez. Sure, we already had AJ, but by this point in his career, nobody was looking at Victor as more than a back-up/emergency catcher.

Looks like Boston reversed the TB momentum for at least one night.... Months ago, Arizona/SF and the AL Central seemed more intriguing than the AL/NL wildcard races, that's for sure. And you never would have thought the Angels would have enough hitting to threaten the Rangers, but that pitching staff...whoa! Another thought... Thome for the rotation DH in 2010, seemingly if you flip-flopped Dunn and Victor Martinez between the two teams, that would have been enough to at least even this AL Central division if not tip the balance to the White Sox

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 13, 2011 -> 07:30 PM) Never thought I'd see the day where Morel is a significantly better hitter than Beckham. Never thought I'd see the day this late in the season where an Alex Rios 2 for 2 still doesn't get him up to a 600 OPS. Did he actually hit 2 line drives or were they "accidental" hits?

Flowers, despite his seemingly endless slump, is still only percentage points behind AJ in OPS. If the dude could just hit .240, we'd really have something.