caulfield12

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 10:20 AM) If only we had room for him on our roster, but with Juan Pierre raking, I just don't see it happening. There should be zero concern for Roger Bossard. Viciedo's natural stroke will crush the same number of grass blades on the right side of the infield as Pierre's cavalcade of 4-3 pull hook grounders. As a matter of fact....like Arizona with that cutout between the mound and plate, they should plant lumescent green runway lights in the grass pointing like an arrow between the bag and second baseman and light them up whenever Beckham, Rios and Quentin are hitting to remind them to stay locked in and go up the middle and to the right side. Just saw a new wikipedia entry..."Jordan4Life instituted a reign of terror during the infamous 2011 White Sox Revolt in an effort to keep the revolution pure and to shut down all opposition to his will."

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 10:05 AM) That actually...was...a...great, coherent caulfield post! Glad I restrained my desire to throw in quotes from J4L, Mark Harmon/Gibbs from NCIS (another managerial candidate), Harvard philosophy professor Michael Sandel and The Green Lantern on "courage and hope versus fear" (of the Twins).

Here's another major point. Besides Jake Peavy, what injury problems have we had this year? Can we really legitimately use that as an excuse, like in 2004? Are we going to be saying "well, if Adam Dunn doesn't have his appendix removed in the first month, he would have gone on to put up an MVP season?" I'm not going to list all the Twins players they've been without, but note both the Tigers and especially the Indians have had FAR MORE injuries to deal with than the White Sox in 2011. That's yet another source of frustration. C'mon, if we get to 1,000 replies, Phil Rogers promised to mention SoxTalk in his Sunday "Whisperings" column.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 09:57 AM) Honestly, this is the problem. Contending is a good thing, but if during a 20 year stretch, you contend in 10 of them and come up short, it is very apparent that you have failed to put your team over the top. Great, we're the Adlai Stevensons of the baseball world.

You can talk about KW's missed opportunities and poor trades and acquisitions, and ignore the stability, identity and pride he has provided. I wonder if people even recall how controversial the Konerko re-signing was around here. Stability? Seriously, you're joking. I'm not even sure how to look this up, but there's been more roster turnover from the point after the 2005 championship through 2011 than any other organization in the game. That's the whole problem with his approach....he's like the mad scientist throwing together odd combinations of talent from 100 different directions and organizations and hoping they'll all jell together. Please define one thing our organization is known for around the game of baseball? We have ZERO identity. Williams and Guillen have run off and ditched "winning" ballplayers like Uribe and Cabrera while trying to amass the most talented roster with players who simply don't/didn't fit like Rios, Javy and Swisher. Your analogies are the same ones I used to make when many defended this organization in the past. Last time I checked, the Cubs weren't winning the attendance championship or the Sox a trophy for highest winning percentage with fewest division titles ring. Didn't know they were giving it out this year. You mention 2008-2010, but you conveniently skipped over how 2007 and late 2006 completely wiped out any momentum this organization had in terms of taking back the city from the Cubs and "branding" a new generation of youngsters in Chicago as White Sox fans for life. Instead, we're left with this constant soap opera and sniping back and forth between Williams and Guillen that is the antithesis of stability. We still don't have a coherent drafting philosophy that's discernible. We have never come close to bringing up "waves" of players together in the minors....players that learn the "White Sox Way," learn how to win together and are promoted together a step at a time, learn how to handle success and failure at the minor league level (see Beckham, Gordon) as well as correct fundamentals from a pitching and hitting standpoint so that they "hit the ground running" when they reach the majors. The White Sox major league players are constantly struggling to adjust to chaos all around them...I could understand why they find it hard to trust each other when they're being thrown under the bus every other week when the team is playing poorly. We hadn't really drafted a single "pure" baseball player in ages until Beckham, and now he's a shadow of his former self. All we did was collected athletes and tried to make them into baseball players, because that's what KW was...a football player playing baseball but with a football mentality. Everett and Rowand were right....with each Crede, Uribe and Cabrera lost from that clubhouse, the leadership vortex shifted to the point where there's no longer anyone in the clubhouse who has the personality to get in anyone's face and lead this team. AJ used to be like that, but his skills and respect in the clubhouse have to be waning. Konerko and Buehrle will never be those personalities....neither will Alexei. Danks and Buehrle might not be around much longer. We all expected and predicted Gordon Beckham would become that player and the abyss he's fallen into is reflected on the disarray in the organization and the lack of answers for how to get some of these guys turned around. We just have too many nice guys (like Juan Pierre, Adam Dunn or Mark Teahen) and not enough Peavy's.

Well, you might as well get rid of all threads criticizing Beckham, Peavy, Dunn, Rios, AJ, Pierre, too. Because nothing's going to change. That's kind of whole point. In the last 2 1/2 seasons, we've been provided one stretch against mostly inferior NL competition...which is supposed to give us faith and confidence that anyone actually still has a clue what they're doing. Thome for Kotsay last year, the stubborn insistence on giving Juan Pierre 700+ plate appearances, our complete inability to beat the Twins, even when they have one of the worst records and active rosters in the major leagues.... If Edwin Jackson gets taken down by Hudson tonight, we're going to have 10 separate threads about it. At this point in 2011, what reason is there to believe that they will figure out a way to beat the Twins and Tigers with their current roster? It's been debated for years how difficult it would be to change out most of the roster...so how could a fresh perspective possibly hurt? If we keep going back to this "JR is loyal to a fault" argument, then you can forget about anyone ever being held accountable for anything in this organization. How many players that weren't in Ozzie's doghouse for more complicated reasons have legitimately been held accountable for not doing their jobs? How many "lessons learned" have actually taken, from all the Camp Coras and sacrifice bunting practice.....has anyone ever seen the coaching staff improve the abilities of a player who wasn't fundamentally sound when he arrived in Chicago? Do we just push all of that off on a fired scouting director and ignore the ongoing failures at the major league level with Beckham and Rios? We can make excuses for Dunn and Peavy and Teahen and Pierre, but what excuses or explains why two potential star players are fizzling out? Just watch. KW will resign because Ozzie's not going to quit and they're not going to fire him. Guillen clearly has more power than KW...if you were Rick Hahn and had been observing Guillen post 2006, would you really want to put up with him? Do you honestly think that Hahn would be given the ability to fire Guillen whenever he wanted as one of the conditions of assuming the position? Ozzie Guillen is basically Billy Beane, except he's the manager and not GM and all the brashness and bragadoccio isn't accompanied by the baseball intelligence to not stubbornly hold onto Juan Pierre in LF or Mark Kostsay as DH.

http://blog.movies.yahoo.com/blog/1588-cou...itts-blind-side MONEYBALL TRAILER Wish they would have picked someone besides Jonah Hill as the DiPodesta character, and Hoffman as Howe? Well, it looks like it COULD be pretty decent.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 01:07 AM) Kill Juan Pierre. Be careful, I've heard he's under Secret Service/NCIS protection. Don't want you to land in prison.

And the freakin A's. It's no longer an automatic death sentence when we go out there to play, but I'm pretty sure we've had five blown saves in ten games against this one, individual team. In the span of just two months. Some teams don't even go 162 games with that many blown saves from their closer. I know we finished 6-4 against them, but it really should have been 9-1 or at least 8-2.

Please sign...haha. Seriously, this is too much. Now before someone suggests Joe McEwing, keep in mind that 1) he comes from the LaRussa school of managing (with its pros and cons) and can we honestly say that he's played an integral role in the development of any of our players? Maybe he has...I don't follow the minors as much as some here, would like to be enlightened. Dave Martinez is a former Sox RFer, very popular around the game, well-spoken and good with the media and ladies (cue jokes about stealing Sandberg's wife), a disciple of one of the 3 best (and creative) managers in the game in Joe Maddon, and he comes from a system where players are drafted and developed....instead of constantly mixing in FA talent and 25% roster changeover every offseason via trade. He also fits with the Sox mode of being on the cutting edge in minority hiring and promotion, the Sox having already baptized Ozzie, KW and Kim Ng in key leadership positions. Just say no to Joey Cora!!! If Martinez won't take the position because it's the middle of the season, deferring to an off-season interview opportunity, then you go to Omar Vizquel as player manager, Sandy Alomar, Jr., Robin Ventura or Jack McDowell and offer them the job for the remainder of the season. You'd keep Cooper/Baines (not sure exactly why, just hate the idea of making him the scapegoat for some reason) in place and then let those guys name their own hitting coach. I don't think Ventura would do it, out of respect to Ozzie, but McDowell might be crazy enough to try. But seriously, in Hahn's shoes, he should go with Omar Vizquel for the rest of the year and roll the dice. Cooper came to mind as well, but for the White Sox fanbase to really get back behind this team, it needs to be someone connected to Sox history or Chicago who's NOT Cora, Buddy Bell or Walker. If those four guys wouldn't do it, I'd also consider offering the position to Steve Stone. I'd much rather go down this "all in" season with Stone Pony, Dave Martinez or Omar Vizquel than Ozzie making the decisions. Ventura (as hitting coach), McDowell (bench coach) and Alomar, Jr. (bench coach), would be 4-6. Fisk, #7. Tony Pena (former catcher and Royals' manager, not reliever) #8. I would throw Jake Peavy's name into the mix but he would probably get hurt again and nobody would listen to him.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 10:47 PM) I do not think this will be true for much longer though. Scott Merkin had a piece on Whitesox.com about Viciedo and he was also on the score with Rosenbloom and McKnight earlier this evening. Merkin seems to believe that Kenny would ideally move Quentin to LF right now and call up Viciedo to start in RF. He also makes mention in the article of KW saying that Viciedo and Quentin will be in the same Sox OF at some point and it is someone else's job to figure out who leads off. Ozzie obviously would rather have a more traditional leadoff type hitter and hence sticks with Pierre. IMO, Kenny is dropping the ball though by not overruling Ozzie and making the move if that is indeed true. It's his job to DFA Pierre for assignment. I suppose they BOTH are hoping and praying that Pierre finally comes to life for an extended period of time during interleague play. If not, it's KW's job to take Pierre away from Ozzie as an option and supply a better one, internally or by trade. Throwing your hands up in the air and saying it's someone else's problem, that's total B.S. I really don't think Williams even believes that crap, either. At this point, Lillibridge or Ramirez are the best options. They absolutely have to get a more productive hitter in a position where he's getting the most plate appearances on the team. Do they really believe Pierre will just "catch fire" and steal 25-30 bags in the second half of the season when the hot, humid summer weather starts to catch up with all the players in August/September? The White Sox historically have faded down the stretch. Maybe younger blood around the time can help counteract that effect. It's worth a try, because what they're doing now against Minnesota and Detroit simply isn't working.

The first time the Twins rolled over us with Liriano, they were playing like absolute crap. This has nothing to do with the fact that the Twins were "hot" because we were playing close to as well as we have (this season) for the last 20-30 games, too. The Twins have been missing Thome, a healthy Morneau, Span, Mauer, Glen Perkins, Nathan and Nishioka. Delmon Young has done his best impersonation of Juan Pierre offensively and defensively after playing like the American League MVP the first four or five months last year. Valencia has spent more time fighting with Cuddyer than hitting the ball. Their catchers are hitting something like .150-.175 since Mauer's been out. I think they've made the most transactions of any MLB team this year, trying to find the right mix in the bullpen. Their AA and AAA teams had the worst record in the minors last year and I think they're close to that distinction this year as well. The Twins are only 9 games back. I'd bet my money on the Tigers if I was a betting type, but there's NO WAY I would rule out the Twins. They have enough players still around who remember 2006. They have another Liriano or Duensing or Valencia in the minors somewhere, just lurking. One adjustment they'll have to make is giving us this idea of Nishioka playing SS. He definitely needs to be at 2B with Casilla (who's been raking during the recent 11-2 run) back at SS. Nishioka's definitely not a 3 hitter and he's hard-pressed to argue he has the arm of Omar Vizquel at age 44. They undoubtedly made a mistake trading Ramos for Capps last year, but they still have a ton of depth with Slowey and Gibson...not to mention Revere's getting better and better with each week at the big league level, gaining in confidence. Aaron Hicks has a lot of tools, too.

Who is going to be Dallas McPherson II this year? Definitely not De Aza...they won't bench Pierre. Gookie Dawkins? He's kind of superfluous with all the Vizquel/Teahen/Lillibridges. For some reason, I'll be shocked if they actually bring up Dayan.

However, for Morel to be an above average player, he simply has to be nearly a Gold Glove level fielder. It's his rookie year, so he's going to get some rope there, but he hasn't exactly been making anyone forget Ventura or Crede. Heck, if he was just an amalgam of Uribe/Crede (20 homers, 65-85 RBI's), I think everyone would be as pleased as punch. Something happened to the team attitude changed when Uribe left and the talented but enigmatic Rios was added to the mix. They're not going to DFA Rios or Dunn or send Beckham to Charlotte, and Konerko's gotten to the point in his career where a hitting coach like Walker isn't as necessary, but with the Rio/Dunn/Beckham triumvirate, Morel still finding himself and Viciedo on his way, how could a fresh perpective at that position possibly hurt? Is it the fear that Quentin, Ramirez and Konerko will fall apart without Walker? Maybe even a new hitting coach could figure out a way to get one more solid offensive season out of AJ, since we're unlikely to eat a $6 million contract before 2012 begins. OR could work some magic with Tyler Flowers and Jordan Danks, you have to be willing to think outside of the box at SOME POINT.

QUOTE (Real @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 02:36 PM) And the Sox will be back in 3rd place in September when we play divisional opponents 4 times a week 1-9 against Minny and DET. Otherwise, we're great against our division and in first place, haha.

It will be a very quiet board tomorrow night if Jackson whips Hudson. Otherwise, the servers are going to crash on KW's head. Although with the late night start, maybe it will be SOMEWHAT quiet, especially heading West as usual with our tail between our legs after the predictable Twins victory.

The only good thing to say is that it's easier to find hitting than good starting pitching. The problem is that we have to replace Buehrle, Danks and Jackson somehow. God help Sale and Peavy.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 02:22 PM) Guillen should be fired today down 1-0 his moves from 8th inning on were horrid. Down 1-0 43 yr old is your best option with 2 out because you f***ed the pooch as usual. Pirates are over .500 Sox have no clue how to get there! Why do we care what the Pirates are doing? They haven't done a thing for two decades, and now they're a measuring stick for the Sox because they've had about 15 Top 5 draft picks in a row?

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 02:20 PM) Major roster changes have got to be made on the offensive side. But where? That means you're going to have to eat AJ's contract, give up on Beckham....can we give up on Morel if he's not walking or showing enough power? Doing anything with Quentin/Konerko/Alexei Ramirez would be COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, so that always leaves Juan Pierre's position. Or would you just waive Rios? That would be fine, if ANYBODY could predict with some degree of certainty he's (Lillibridge) an everyday ballplayer over the course of a six month season. Personally, I'd much rather cheer for Viciedo and Lilly...but KW has consistently shown he doesn't care what fans think, nor does Ozzie.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 02:14 PM) The way I see it is that the Sox develop pitching decently well, they just tend to draft pitchers with little upside/not a whole lot of talent, which ends up not producing much. They can't develop hitters worth a lick, even if they draft talented players. Chris Young, C. Carter, Sweeney, B. Allen, Morel...it's not like they have developed NOBODY.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 02:12 PM) No one ever argues that our drafting has sucked. It's when you argue that perfectly well-reasoned and intelligently made decisions at the time, that failed to turn out well due to circumstances beyond our control, are signs of incompetence on the part of our front office - that's when people find your stance to be untenable. And picking someone like Justin Smoak isn't exactly a surefire move when you still have a healthy Konerko producing .... especially when you're selecting what looks like a franchise middle infielder (remember all the Jeter comparisons?), that NORMALLY has more value to a team, historically.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 02:09 PM) Not one young hitter has progressed under Walker. I think they've done a pretty good job being patient with Morel this year. Hopefully the power will come later.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 01:58 PM) That was nearly two years ago. When I see Andrew McCutchen, Mike Stanton, Buster Posey (before he got hurt), Logan Morrison, Gaby Sanchez and Eric Hosmer making their marks on this game, and Gordon Beckham doing his best '92 Steve Sax impersonation for a year and a half, yes, it was a bust of a pick. And who do you suggest should be playing 2B for the White Sox instead? And how will they possibly acquire said player? Should they just waive him? I don't think it's fair to compare Eric Hosmer to Gordon Beckham, but go ahead. What about all those teams that didn't give Mark Buerhle a chance? Should their scouting departments be fired, too? The Sox drafts have absolutely sucked, but there are numerous organizations that have had terrible drafts....cherrypicking is too easy to do.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 01:58 PM) He is just dumber than f***ing rocks. Ozzie, you are dumber than f***ing rocks. My balls have more baseball intelligence than you. I guess he didn't want to waste 2 players making one move. Teahen would have had to come in anyway to play defense for Paulie. This way, he still has Lillibridge available to run for Dunn. That's the theory.

It's getting pretty bad when our own announcers (DJ and Farmer) are arguing that the Twins have no reason to fear the White Sox at all.