caulfield12

Sox deciding to make it a game finally.

Trade Quentin now. Just kidding, sort of.

Typical Friday night Sox never in it game thread. Under 10 pages. Ugly as the weather. Not unexpected though, when Verlander is going good.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 04:49 PM) I lol'd at this $14.29 trillion or ZERO in the case of a default. Maybe we can split the difference and value Danksie at $7.1 trillion.

QUOTE (High Mileage @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 05:47 PM) Yep, right around the time John Schuerholz left to take over the Braves, "leading" them to a 94-68 record and an NL pennant a year after they went 65-97. You're pretty much dead on. Kauffman brought baseball back to KC (after the A's moved to Oakland) and was very big in the community/region. Glass and family are rarely seen at Royals games, and they don't even keep a home in the area (well, in Arkansas they do). Glass either couldn't or wouldn't spend his first few years of ownership. The best thing he's done for the organization was hiring Dayton Moore and staying out of actual baseball decisions. Obviously the results have been limited on the field, but he has funded our Draft (we've spent more than anybody since '06) and International Scouting (we've spent more than everybody except the Pirates since '06, IIRC) as well as front office expansion. Out of sight, out of mind. Just keep writing the checks, Old Man... I'll give Glass credit for trying to establish some "legitimacy" in the FA market by going after Meche. And give Meche credit for retiring when he could have just continued to collect a paycheck. But the last couple of years, blending in the Guillens and Ankiels and Podsedniks, it just hasn't worked. On the other hand, they had to throw some journeymen out there to protect the youngsters from being overexposed before they were ready for the major league team. Even spending on Willie Bloomquist, Juan Cruz and Kyle Farnsworth....those are the kind of players who are complementary on a playoff contending team, but a waste of payroll for the Royals. I still remember how enthusiastic Posnanski tried to be when they brought in Hillman from Japan. Well, maybe they'll get it straightened out eventually.

Wonder if Beckham's going to move down permanently to 8th or 7th now? When Vizquel returns to the bench, does Ramirez stay up at #2? LOL at Ozzie bringing back Morel from the bench to face Verlander in the worst weather possible after his "mental health break", but resting Ramirez. In all fairness, Alexei hasn't done much against Verlander, but you might as well leave Teahen in there one more game and hope he catches fire. Morel's going to be completely overmatched by Verlander. Six losses in a row to the Tigers. Well, we'd beaten the Angels 7 games consectively and that didn't turn out so well.

Chris Getz is a consistent .636/.637 OPS no matter where he plays. Fields and Anderson? Don't think so. Ryan Sweeney finally ended up losing his starting job in Oakland for a lot of the same reasons he wasn't believed to project as more than a 4th OF in Chicago. Chris Young and Greg Walker don't have anything in common. Even C. Carter has turned out to be a big bust (based on early returns), and the verdict's a bit discouraging on B. Allen. We all know about Jeremy Reed and Michael Morse. Basically, we've simply sucked at developing position prospects since Durham, Ordonez, C-Lee, Crede and Rowand.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 05:32 PM) KC used to have the highest payroll in baseball back around 1990. They have been bad for so long after really being a model franchise. Which had everything to do with Ewing Kauffman dying and his eventually being replaced by Mr. Wal-Mart. While he might have been a good businessman, the Royals fans have never come close to the same feelings of affection and adulation. Of course, a lot of that has to do with the decades of the 70's and 80's for Royals' baseball. But Glass is believed to be the anti-Kauffman by most.

QUOTE (High Mileage @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 04:12 PM) All very valid points. I think with most casual fans, they look at it as another Jermaine Dye-for-Neifi Perez or Johnny Damon-for-Angel Berroa. Trading a star player for somebody they've never heard of. With diehard fans, I think most of them feel the way that I do, that it sucks to lose a guy like Zack, but at the same time it had to be done because of his words and actions, obviously the jury is still out on that deal and will be for years. They knew they weren't going to be able to keep (afford) Sweeney, Dye, and Damon. Keeping all three was going to be a huge risk, as the farm system and the rest of the big league roster was pretty bare anyways. We also didn't have an actual owner at the time either. As far as Sweeney, the Royals were just bit by bad luck. The man had just made 3 consecutive All-Star Games and had hit .340/.417/.563, and it's hard to fault a guy for injuries. And I also hadn't thought about the weather, it's been cold, raining a lot (and very, very windy) here... I blame it all on not keeping Rey Sanchez and Jose Rosado going down with injuries!!! Long live Dos Carlos (Febles and Beltran)!!! In actuality, White Sox and Royals fans are very similar. They pretty much refuse to support below average baseball...with the fact that KC probably still gets more "casual" fans even with atrocious teams for weekend games than the White Sox because of the difference in pricing points. With the White Sox having the fourth most expensive ticket price/parking, they simply HAVE to put a good product on the field. Too many Royals fans started to believe (that was the motto, if I remember, from Tony Pena) in that team and then it quickly fell apart after the All Star break and yet more hearts that had been suffering for 15 years were torn out. The other thing that really hurt was Buck and Teahen not panning out with the Royals. Of course, Buck's gone on to a huge contract since and luckily our GM took Mark Teahen off your hands. For that, you have Chris Getz's consistent .636/.637 OPS, Podsednik, Josh Fields and Brian Anderson. And we'll even throw in Wilson Betemit, who managed to kill the White Sox last year, of course. Him and that darned Callaspo. And Aviles.

Wonder what the weather's like for Cleveland at Minnesota? Somehow, it's in the 70's or low 80's in southern Illinois/Kentucky. Who designs these schedules?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/sort/allAvg For the sake of JR's "All In", this trend can't continue simply because the White Sox are last in all of MLB in terms of "average" attendance, counting home and road games. Of course, a big factor in that is our playing in Cleveland for 3 games and TB for 4, but it's still a bit surprising that we're dead last. OVERALL MLB Attendance, average of home and road games 2005 13th 2006 10th (year after World Series win) 2007 13th 2008 18th 2009 15th (after playoff appearance) 2010 21st 2011 30th (VERY SMALL SAMPLE SIZE) Also, the "holdover" effects of a World Series victory are generally predicted by sports marketing experts to extend out to five years.

Or Tyler Flowers. At least living with a lack of offense is much easier at that position. The problem with Tyler is the rest of his game...pitch calling, managing a staff, framing pitches, strategy/gamesmanship, etc.

QUOTE (fathom @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 03:30 PM) I firmly believe Ozzie would be a great manager in the NL or for a team like Seattle. As illustrated by his comments about the bunt yesterday, his philosophy of bunting on a team with 2 future 500 home run players (possibly) is skewed. The only question is why he's so stubborn to hold onto this managerial theory that flies in the face of the homers hit in 2005/2006 and even in 2008 with Quentin/Ramirez/Dye/Konerko/Thome, etc. 1) Maybe because that's what worked for him personally, and the "dead ball" White Sox playing in Old Comiskey needed to score just a run at a time? Or weren't capable of scoring in bunches. 2) His time coaching and playing in the NL at the end of his career with ATL/Cox and the Marlins. 3) The fact that it worked so well with Iguchi and Pods for 3-4 months in 2005...but hasn't since? 4) His general inability to admit he's wrong since the World Series and adapt to the roster as much as expecting players who aren't capable of bunting or playing fundamental baseball to change for Ozzie? I'm thinking here of players like BA and Josh Fields, to name a couple. As Fathom mentioned, this mindset just doesn't work well in the AL East or AL Central. It certainly does have its place in baseball, with a low payroll team like the Padres or one that's limited offensively, such as the Mariners or A's.

You're right. I guess a lot of it is the disappointment with losing the 2009 Cy Young version of Greinke. That was easily worth another 7500-12500 fans per night. The "Roy Halladay Effect" that you also saw in Toronto. Those same fans had already lost Mike Sweeney as their idol due to injuries and aging (they chose the wrong player to hold onto, and for too long), and DeJesus was more of an enigma than the second coming of Johnny Damon with KC fans. Maybe the 3rd factor is that the formerly overhyped and "new face" of the franchise, Alex Gordon, was in danger of finding himself on another team heading into this spring. And then the Chiefs are back as a contending team again, so that might be yet another factor.

QUOTE (fathom @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 04:21 PM) For 2006, it was the fact that your two best pitchers (Buehrle and Contreras) had a second half combined ERA around 5.75. The 2006 team during the first half was the best White Sox team, in terms of talent, I've ever seen. Yeah, I forgot about Contreras, my avatar. Until he got injured in that game against Cincinnati, he was the best pitcher (for a 4 month stretch) any of us might ever see with the White Sox...at least the most dominant I'd seen in my lifetime during that stretch. Other than the game against Paul Byrd in the playoffs, he just never lost. And he did it with essentially just two pitches. When all things are said and done, that was the key moment of the White Sox "mini-dynasty" dying before it started. Buehrle, you kind of expected he would revert to his normal 3.75-4.25 self with more hits than innings pitched. Contreras and McCarthy, it was unbelieveable how well those guys pitched in August and September.

QUOTE (fathom @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 04:08 PM) He turned that franchise around and had them in playoffs first two years (including best record in NL in 2nd year, I believe) he was there, but THANKFULLY, they choked in the playoffs. Well, obviously the "big name" isn't always the best move. If they'd taken that approach, Cito Gaston would have been named the manager. On the other hand, hiring someone with a track record like Terry Bevington didn't work so well, either. It just depends where your roster is...that was the argument for dumping Torborg and Manuel, that they were better suited for "THESE KIDS CAN PLAY" rebuilding efforts centered around youthful prospects than with managing a team successfully through the playoffs (like a Piniella, LaRussa or Torre). Then again, with today's athletes, often the big name manager hasn't realized that you need to change with the times and adapt (moreso this is true in basketball, but also baseball IMO). For example, Piniella never would post the next day's line-up until the last minute. Just this one little thing drove the players nuts, but he was too stubborn to change.

QUOTE (fathom @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 04:06 PM) Tons of baseball statisticians were predicting Politte crashing back to earth after the 2005 due to the percentage of line drives he gave up that turned into outs. Some metrics ruled him the luckiest pitcher of 2005. As for Cotts, the fact that he gave up one home run all 2005 with his high fastball probably indicated that there was luck involved. The 2006 team didn't fade because of the bullpen...it faded cause the starting pitching hit the wall with a few months left. Even with a bad bullpen to start 2006, we were 6 games up on the Wild Card at the ASB. I remember that game right before the ASB when we took down Papelbon and were 26 games over .500 still at that point. Undoubtedly, the starting pitching just wore down. Javy was always terribly erratic that year...but consistently a victim of the one bad pitch or one big inning. Then there was the Brian Anderson fiasco in CF. Eventually the offense cooled down and they actually did need both a competent offensive CFer and a league-average defensive contributor up the middle. And with Liriano and Santana dealing for much of that second half, the Twins were just a team of destiny as they reeled in the Tigers over the last 3 months. KW has tried both approaches with the pen. He's gone for the guys with the track record (Dotel and Linebrink) as well as the likes of Sisco, MacDougal, Masset and Aardsma. Power arms not fulfilling their potential. He's also brought in a dozen crappy lefties to audition for one role...and then traded the best of that group (Javier Lopez) to the Red Sox. I don't think anyone could have predicted Hermanson, Politte, Jenks and Cotts to pitch as well as they did. In the end, bringing in Thome wasn't the wrong move...it was believing that Brian Anderson was the guy to keep after parting with Chris Young, Anthony Webster, Jeremy Reed and Rowand.

On the open market, Danks is undoubtedly worth more. Does anyone really believe that JR will give a $100 million dollar contract to a non-superstar pitcher for five years or more? Let's say we're talking a contract somewhere in the vicinity of the Braun deal that was recently announced. Barring some type of incredible 2005/2006 run, I just don't see the cost/benefit analysis on that one ending up in favor of Danks sticking around with the Sox. He just happens to be the most important trade chip in any rebuilding effort. Hopefully they don't go that direction, and there's certainly logic to retaining Danks if Buehrle is actually planning to leave the Sox or retire. It always comes back to Peavy. If he's healthy enough, then you have three starters (Floyd/Danks/Peavy) and theoretically Sale. But to rebuild an entire rotation around Floyd and Sale, that's a huge non-starter in terms of "patching" on the go or "reloading" and finally points to rebuilding. (That is, unless there's a big offset in insurance for Peavy not pitching for the major league team for the remainder of his contract.)

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 11:07 AM) How do you "think" something that is a fact? Danks HAS been the best starter, and there is no question. Although now that I've said that, I'm sure Balta or someone who loves to argue will try to refute it But just because he's been the best starter since 2008 doesn't mean he's worth $75 million for 5 years, either. Now you can argue that Buehrle wasn't worth his last contract either, but that's a little bit difference circumstance based on what he did for the organization prior to that....his popularity and longevity and identification with the Sox. I don't think Danks comes close to 50% of Buehrle's or Konerko's popularity, especially in terms of the personal relationship with JR.

The greatest concern for baseball should be in Cleveland and Kansas City, where teams have done well but the city doesn’t seem to care. The Indians are 12-5, but the crowds are down 5.3 percent, thanks to four games where less than 10,000 fans showed up. Kansas City is 11-6 and has seen its crowds decline by a whopping 16.8 percent, including last Thursday against Seattle where 8,811 people were counted. And what in the world is going on in Chicago, where the loveable losers can’t even fill up Wrigley? The 16 percent drop through the Chicago Cubs’ first seven home games is hard to believe. For the record, so far, with the unbearable weather and 4 game road losing streak...the White Sox are off 1.5% so far. http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AlIA..._problem_042111

I guess we should never have traded Danks for McCarthy, either.

Transmorphers: Fall of Man, from the same team that brought you Titanic II... Quite possibly the worst spoof movie of all-time. The biggest problem I had was the casting of writer Shane Van Dyke in the lead hero. If he hadn't written the script, I doubt he'd have even had an audition. critic at rottentomatoes.com

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Apr 21, 2011 -> 07:50 PM) I proved your point? You basically said no one comes close to Shapiro since mid 2006. I don't mind your overall pissed-offness (if thats a word) about the Sox, but your statement is just wrong, and waiver claims don't count but trades do? For all we know, Santos might end up having an even better career than Bobby Jenks...another example of either a typical "lucky" KW move working out or a very insightful job of scouting and analysis (Jenks, Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Thornton, Ramirez, Iguchi, etc.)

QUOTE (Wanne @ Apr 21, 2011 -> 10:56 PM) I've heard this the past 4 years. Not arguing...but I remember the convos about having Konerko, Dye and Thome all in the same clubhouse and not instilling a very "lively" atmosphere. But it seems that element of the team won out over the likes of Swisher and Cabrera, in the end.

The famous Von Hayes trade, Eric Milton to the Phillies for Carlos Silva and Nick Punto (simply because those guys helped the Twins and Milton collapsed)...AJ Pierzynski for Bonser/Liriano/Nathan, although hardly a superstar, I think he'd been at least an All-Star with the Twins once at that point. Victor Zambrano for Kazmir? Then you have the White Flag deal where we got Foulke and Howry, but Caruso and Barcelo were major disappointments.