caulfield12

2-0 now Twins leading. Can we seriously have a mulligan on this last week?

Thanks, Gio Gonzalez. Bases loaded walk to Kubel, which might not be the worst thing if he can get out of it somehow. Our ex prospects who are pitching well can't even seem to beat the Twins.

The Jonathan Ogden and Pitino ones were the best....after the first two Pitino ads, the British actor is QUITE a bit over the top, but it's actually pretty funny and I bet they had to do 100 takes because everyone was cracking up filming with "GUY"

You could put this year's DH fiasco right up there with the year (maybe it was 2007) that we didn't have any veteran relievers (specifically loogies) and we auditioned about 13 of them in Spring Training. Even though it was the last position on the baseball team, the relief problems stuck around for most of that season, with the exception of Jenks being very good (I think that was the year he had his streak of innings without giving up a run, yes?)

I think there are definitely two generations mostly reflected here at SoxTalk. The ones who are mostly in their early to mid 20's, college students or recent graduates...and then those that grew up and actually remember White Sox baseball in the 1990's, 80's and even the 1970's, especially in Old Comiskey Park. I would guess those younger fans (unlike myself) tend to be a bit more confident and optimistic, perhaps a bit less patient, having witnessed perhaps the most successful generation of Sox baseball, certainly since the 1950's and probably all the way back to the teen's and aught's. Having suffered through so much disappointment, it's a bit easier to become cynical and jaded about Sox baseball. Heck, the same feeling pervades many posters (and I'll admit to being a big obsessed with beating the Twins) in their lack of belief in this current team being able to overcome the Twins. Actually, it's not just me. There's a reason (besides the heat) that none of the three games against the Twins were close to being sell-outs. I really think that much of the fanbase believes that June/July was a mirage and that the team will fade down the stretch. EVERYONE in baseball (and probably half of outer space if aliens are tuned into message boards) knows that the White Sox are at least one hitter short. It's ironic, because in 2003 and perhaps part of 2010, there has been the belief that the White Sox had the pitching to compete with any team in baseball...accompanied by the belief that something was missing in terms of a hitter (or team chemistry and managing in the case of Manuel), etc. Actually, I would also just throw out a number of 25-33% who really question Ozzie's ability to lead this baseball team, doubts that have become progressively larger over the last five years (although interestingly, I don't think the doubters will be quieted by the "miracle" comeback into contention and first place this season). I'm not sure what would be worse, actually, being a White Sox fan and believing your team will lose to the Twins again, or being a Twins' fan and believing your team will make the playoffs and lose in the first round (which has happened on 4/5 occasions this decade, with the lone exception being a defeat of the A's, an even smaller market team). I suppose they can always rejoice in 1987 and 1991, but "modern" Twins' fans in their teen and twenties don't have those memories to fall back on for comfort.

The question with Allen is whether he would be good enough to start for the White Sox in 2011 and replace Konerko? I don't think the answer there is yes, I think it's MAYBE, as part of a platoon. Theoretically, you could have Viciedo and Allen together, that would be a nice tandem. Somehow, Teahen would have to fit into the picture, the same player who doesn't really fit unless you logically bench Kotsay, which Guillen may or may not do. An athletic, cost-controlled 1B who will get you 350 AB's is worth more than a back-end reliever, FWIW. The problem is that Carter hasn't proven he can even put up an 800 OPS at that position. Carter's a bit of a different story, but are you going to give up Quentin's production in 2008 and 2010 to get Carter back for 2011? That's clearly a huge debate, and 90% of the board will come down on the side of CQ, injuries aside, because proven MLB production almost always trumps potential, unless you're talking a Mike Stanton, Josh Hamilton, Miguel Cabrera type of impact bat, and Carter's clearly not in that category. To tell the truth, I'm not even sure KW would trade Viciedo for Carter straight up. Maybe.

We are better at SS and in CF with Ramirez and Rios. You can make "ability" arguments for Quentin over Cuddyer in RF and Beckham over Hudson at 2B (not this year for Beckham, clearly). You can even argue Vizquel over Valencia if you want. But when they have Young, Thome, Kubel, Morneau, Mauer and Cuddyer in the line-up and healthy at the same time, they clearly overmatch us because of our offensive weaknesses in LF, 3B, 2B (for most of the season), DH and C. The Twins didn't really win that game, we just gave it to them in so many ways...and that's how they often beat you. I like to think of them as the Martina Hingis of baseball teams (although they're clearly better offensively than their 2002-04/06 versions)...they just keep hitting the ball back at you and wait for you to make a mistake or error. They're not as fast or as gifted defensively as in the past, they have more sluggers without sound fundamentals and fewer role players, but they're good. But, like Martina Hingis, they're outgunned when they play the best...in this case, they're at least one pitcher short in the starting rotation. Still, Liriano (although erratic) has great stuff, Pavano and Baker can be solid, although I think of them more as 3's or 4's than true aces, although Pavano has been their best pitcher for most of the season, with the exception of a 8-10 start stretch for Liriano before he started to fall apart.

We just didn't show up ready to play. Gavin was tight and didn't have any confidence until the 4th. The defense and balk gave up two early runs. We couldn't hit to save our life with RISP and Liriano got ahead of all those hitters and had them on their heels. Too bad Viciedo's ball didn't go out for a grand slam or it would have turned out completely different. And Quentin is laughable in the OF, once again.

Were those cheers for Liriano from Twins' fans?

What's up with the crowd? I think, for some reason, the Chicago fans have not warmed up to this team...it's incredible the reaction that last inning. Strange they didn't even really get all that excited at any point in the inning, then booing at the end of Quentin's strikeout.

I could have sworn someone said he was throwing upwards of 100 MPH these days...that's why I brought his name back up, since he was in the Hudson category of being on quite a few lists as a Top 40-60 MILB prospect coming out around the time of the trade.

So the best argument for Teahen is half of a DH/1B platoon with Viciedo next year. The problem with that is Viciedo's never going to learn how to be a big league hitter playing 1-3 games per week. In the last 10 days, the scouting reports have caught up with him and it's very hard to adjust as a part-time player. I really don't want to see Teahen in the OF either, although he would be a SLIGHT improvement over Quentin, it would definitely not be strengthening our OF defense compared to using Andruw Jones out there.

At one point, those Braves' teams looked to have Andruw and Chipper Jones, Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux and Steve Avery all headed to the Hall of Fame. Avery's career was wiped out by the injuries, and Jones has very little chance to make it now, although he will probably get a lot of votes because of his 10 Gold Gloves.

The only way he serves the White Sox as any type of "value" in the line-up is playing RF/DH/1B and hitting at LEAST a 775 OPS clip, that's a minimum number. To do that, he's got to walk a ton, hit a LOT of doubles and 15-18 homers. That's a tall task, considering he's only done it once for about 4 months of a season, not even a full/complete year. And that's ONCE in his entire big league history.

Theoretically, if Young was able to play in 2006, you can argue that team MIGHT have made it with McCarthy as the fifth starter. But I doubt it, and Young probably was a season away at that point, if I remember correctly. At one point, we had Rowand, Reed, Anderson, Young and Anthony Webster as our CF depth chart. So it at least had the appearance of being promising for the future and the one area of strength to trade away from. Another very useful power pitcher we traded was Frank Francisco (from Boston for Howry) as part of the package to get Everett from Texas, although you can always bring up the 2005 argument with Cotts or Everett. He wasn't exactly in our system for very long, though. Some might put trading away Nick Masset to the Reds on their list. RHP Daniel Cortes' name has come up again this season for his career again being on an upward track, I haven't even looked up his stat line...I think it was him and Lumsden in the MacDougal trade.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AhFY...i-greinke081110 National baseball writers are now picking up on the story too, can't be making David Glass too comfortable.

QUOTE (D_B_U @ Aug 11, 2010 -> 10:29 AM) I doubt that AJ would ever go back to the Twins. He hates them. As a twinkies fan(promise i wont spam this board) I was surprised Thome signed with us. He really didn't have many realistic options. He had to stay in the AL, and there wasn't very much certainty about what Delmon Young was going to produce or whether he would make it through the entire offseason and full 2010 schedule with the Twins. Not trading him...along with picking up Thome and Hudson, getting Pavano off the scrap heap last year, those were the smartest moves that Bill Smith ever made, and he's made quite a few bad ones (Lamb, Livan Hernandez, Everett) in the last couple of years.

Ozzie Guillen will have his own movie, "Despicable Me II" if the White Sox lose this thing by one game. (Yes, I know, I know, it will be because of the starting pitching not carrying us and NOT because of Mark Kotsay. With that said, I dare the White Sox to bing back Kotsay/Jones as the DH combination if they lose to the Twins again this year).

Past excuses: 1) Metrodome 2) Santana, Liriano and Radke just pitched "a whale of a ballgame," they're bulldogs/competitors, blah blah blah 3) Carlos Gomez 4) Piranhas 5) Air conditioning/vents 6) The Twins just "want it more" and are hungrier 7) Small market team that was almost eliminated from MLB against big city boys 8) Gardenhire is better manager, Ryan is better GM 9) Twins are faster, play better defense, don't make mistakes, strong fundamentally, let their opponents beat themselves 10) Torii Hunter robbed us 11) LeCroy, Hocking, Lew Ford, Shannon Stewart, Jacque Jones, Mientkiewicz, Koskie, Blanco, Redmond, Bobby Kielty, etc., somehow beat us. Now the Twins have almost an equal payroll, their new stadium, higher revenues, definitely more star or superstar offensive players (Mauer, Young and Morneau, with Kubel/Cuddyer/Thome not far behind)...so what's the new excuse? That the White Sox are actually underestimated and are the real underdogs instead? Media bias slurping the Twins for their perceived "greatness"?

Well, the one thing that can't measure is how many pitchers' heads we got into, how many walks, how many grooved fastballs, errors by the catcher or middle infielders caused by putting pressure on the other team... Obviously in years past, we wouldn't have those huge caught stealing numbers...but we still made plenty of outs on the basepaths in 2009 without being anything resembling a fast or athletically-inclined team. At least this year, we can go first to third most of the time and I do feel that the aggressiveness has won more games than it has lost us. I also concur about being annoyed with giving up outs with Pierre on base and bunting him over when he's supposedly one of the top basestealers in the majors.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 11, 2010 -> 09:40 AM) None of the above? It turns out now is the era of free agency and what not and players very rarely stay with the same team their entire career. Its bound happen that they end up on another team and have a big moment or two. Secondly, if the Sox are gonna lose, I would rather it be Thome, Buerhle, or Konerko, guys I like, making the big play, instead of getting beat by a d-bag like Pettite, A-Rod, Youkilis, etc. That being said, how is Nick Swisher not on this list? Losing in the ALCS on a walk-off homer by Dirty 30 would piss me off way more than losing to a guy I enjoyed watching play for many years. I don't know if I would qualify Swisher beating us as "gut wrenching," that's more of the "irritating/annoying/p$$$ing off" category to me. Orlando Cabrera was vilified by many, yet his winning the ALCD with the Twins last year hardly registered as a blip on the radar, and that was largely or likely because we were sort of dead in the water coming down the stretch and there weren't really any huge "make or break" games with the Twins in August/September like in years past.

Since I'm in a mood for self-pity today...thinking of, well, it could be worse scenarios. AND FOR THE RECORD, not bringing back Thome was FINE, it's just that we didn't adequately replace him or have a back-up plan in place better than the one that's haunted us for most of the season and become the biggest broken record since the "Brian Anderson is a burgeoning superstar who is being held back by Ozzie's unfair and mean-spirited vendetta" conspiracy theory. I should have added a couple more possibilities....of Guillen and/or Kenny Williams being part of organizations that beat the Sox in the future.

Anything is possible in baseball. We've seen it this year. Of course, the ONE thing you don't want to see is a three game sweep by your rivals on your home field, where you just established such dominance for the last 2 months. (I think if the White Sox were swept at home and then still managed to come back and win the ALCD, then Ozzie would be justified in writing his book, getting a team up off the deck twice in one season like that would be pretty miraculous). That said, with the way this season has gone, you can't count anybody out. We saw the same thing happen in 2008, the Twins (although it was in Minnesota) just demolished the White Sox psychologically, there was the infamous Jenks/Carlos Gomez debacle (to be compared to this year's Sunday No Out Massacre), your heart was torn out and ripped in two by the Twins at that point. And yet we still came back to win. I'm not saying the SAME thing will happen again, but there's no reason why it can't. Of course, Twins fans can say that they don't need Morneau to win (they won something like 16 of their last 21 without him last year and are seemingly fine again without his presence in the line-up), that their offensive depth and bullpen can make up for any deficiencies in the starting rotation.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 11, 2010 -> 08:36 AM) Worth noting that the Sox are now 4-5 since this rant got out? Historically, Ozzie rants have deflected attention away from individidual players or poor overall team play, but I guess this one just came at a time when the White Sox were due to cool off...that level of play wasn't going to continue forever, just like the good luck with Garcia holding up as well. In some ways, you have to be proud of how they reversed 9 1/2 games in the standings to go up by 4 1/2 (after beating the Twins the Thursday after the ASB), but unfortunately we've given up 5 1/2 games in the last month ourselves. Such a bi-polar season. 14 game shift, but the recent negative 5 1/2 game shift seems almost as demoraralizing as the positive run back into the lead a month ago was uplifting. Still, basing your happiness about the season based on the last three games is ridiculous, so we just have to hope the offense can get things figured out quickly. At home, you'd like to think they at least have a chance to win 2 in a row over the Twins, but it's hard to believe in that happening right now. Still, if you were a Twins' fan one month ago and your team had just lost that first game and you were 4 1/2 games back, it was even more depressing, since they'd blown such a huge lead already and the season seemed to be getting away from them. Still, I'm not going to put a Danks/Perkins match-up in the "automatic win" column, we tried to do that with some of our Baltimore match-ups. Just want to see some signs of life, fight and competitiveness. It's really amazing how much the 2003 season influences the feelings of Sox fans on the Twins. We got plastered by them in 2001-2004 and fell off in the second half of 2006, but we did manage to miraculously hold them off in 2008. It's interesting to conjecture how much gloomier and doomier things would feel around here had the Twins won in 2008, that would have given them 6 division championships out 8, and the Sox only 1 (especially considering the way they came back to track down the Tigers in 2006 and 2009). 2 versus 5 (with the World Series) or even 3 versus 5 (going back to 2000) doesn't seem QUITE so bad...even writing these words, it feels like a defeatist, Cubs-like mentality, the idea that "at least we don't have to watch our team get plastered in the first round of the playoffs year after year" when almost all of us feel the starting pitching on this team could easily get us another championship if not for the other egregious flaws in the blueprint.

Does anyone have the exact quotes from Ozzie this time? At ESPN, Ozzie's complaining about all the media attention the Twins are getting for coming to town, there's a quote from his wife wondering about whether Ozzie's "dating someone from Minnesota"...and then comments about the White Sox not getting enough respect and "not feeling the support" in Chicago. And then he is considering writing a book about this season and the miraculous comeback to contention behind his managerial style (this last line is my own hyperbolic comments, don't jump on Ozzie yet).