caulfield12

From watching Torii Hunter most of his career and even in the minors, I would definitely pick him over Rowand. Now maybe too many think of Hunter as the slowed-down, post Astroturf lingering wear and tear player with the Angels, but that guy was just a game-changing defender. He also had the ability to go over the fence at will and change the composition of numerous games with his athletic ability. Another area where Aaron wasn't as solid was throwing the ball. He had an above-average arm, but he wasn't very effectively in throwing out runners either, I can recall numerous balls that he threw right into the ground, and he had a knack for hitting the mound over and over again. Those Gold Gloves he (Hunter) won were all legit until maybe the last year or so, when he won it on reputation alone. In this situation, it's a lot like Chavez versus Crede, where Chavez was great for the first 2-3-4 years of his career and lived off his early accolades, to the point where Crede never officially dethroned him. I know, I know....someone will bring up Derek Jeter winning, that inevitably happens in any discussion of this topic. Maybe Aaron is a little bit of a victim (to me) of the overhyping, the same thing happened with Brian Anderson...I got so sick of hearing how good they were or how underrated that they were...that they became overrated to me, and while Rowand had one great offensive season with the Sox where he piled up all those doubles (I think it was 04) he was never quite as good as his offensive reputation either (which is why he's one of the worst 10 contracts in baseball, along with Carlos Lee, despite playing in the NL).

Sheets is scheduled to start on Sunday against the White Sox but probably won't go. There's something definitely wrong with him physically...his last start against the Red Sox, he was consistently in the mid 80's with his fastball. Most likely, or at least 50/50, they'll hold back Sheets and go with Bret Anderson instead of Sheets. I think it's down to Haren and Oswalt in terms of impact starters.

Pretty amazing this would be Buehrle's first career victory in Oakland. Definitely has been a house of horrors for him, 0-6 lifetime at the Coliseum and 3-12 overall against the A's. Glad, for now, there's no need for the bullpen in this game. Have they announced whether they will use Sheets or Anderson on Sunday?

Scott's really hot right now. They already have Wieters, you can push them to take Flowers but it's back to the same thing, giving up Viciedo for Luke Scott. Pretty obviously, it won't be Danks. And if you're the Orioles, you're probably not going to take a package of players like Morel and Short (just throwing out names) over someone much closert to big league readiness.

Without giving up Beckham, it's going to have to be Gavin Floyd AND Santos AND Viciedo/Flowers. You can't cripple the starting pitching staff by including Floyd, Danks or Hudson in a trade. We can shed Torres, of course, but that's not going to be enough to come close to getting Fielder or Dunn.

And I think everyone on this board would agree we would simply LOVE to see Bobby Jenks pitch like he's CAPABLE of pitching. Because without him, that creates yet another issue on this team that already has to deal with the loss of Peavy, Carlos Quentin's nagging injuries, the lack of production from Kotsay/Jones at DH, etc. I would guess that MOST Sox fans don't believe he will be effective in any other role than closer...some think he might pout or pull a Swisher, who knows...the only thing we can say with certainty is that it would be better if we could leave Putz and Thornton in their current roles. Otherwise, you have to make someone do something they're not comfortable with, and we saw how that failed before when Dotel in particular was pushed back into more critical situations when Linebrink went down in 2008. I don't know how we are in first place, to tell the truth. Just that great run of starting pitching, 32 quality starts in 38 tries. Ozzie has done quite a commendable job keeping this team together, and I was one of quite a few (I won't say many) who wanted him gone and who felt he had lost this team late in 2009 and then early in 2010. Ozzie has always proven to be resilient, and never a quitter, at his best when everyone is betting against him and waiting for his downfall. Just like in late 2008 when we had lost Crede, Linebrink, Quentin and Contreras, we've had to improvise and the odds still favor the Twins and perhaps even the Tigers unless KW makes a season-changing move that will affect this franchise for the next half decade. Personally, I wouldn't want to make that decision, because our starting pitching, bullpen and defense are good enough to compete with the Rays, Rangers and Yankees in the playoffs. Still, I'd rather go with what we have and let the chips falls where they may than knock ourselves out of contention for 2011-12-13 by trading away Hudson, Viciedo and Flowers. We still have no idea how/when Peavy will recover, it's too risky to trade Hudson, despite the glowing medical reports, we're dealing with a unique injury for a pitcher, we should be careful not to thin out our pitching depth.

Greg, I really don't "get" why you enjoy defending him so much...? Just to be against the crowd or counter-intuitive? You were here (I'm guessing) when Takatsu was around, Koch, Foulke, Howry, etc. Some of them, like Keith, basically removed themselves from the closer's role...others lost it because their stuff either fell off, the league figured them out or they weren't fooling anyone anymore (Koch and Shingo). Nobody HATES Bobby Jenks. I don't think I've honestly felt that towards any member of the White Sox. We can dislike them as players, feel they're being utilized incorrectly by Ozzie or overexposed, but the fact of the matter is that Jenks is making millions of dollars, he should be held accountable for his physical conditioning if it starts to affect his ability to pitch well. I'll give you an example, Jenks can't field his position (see numerous bunt attempts) or hold runners on. When he was very good, that didn't matter, he had the stuff to pitch around it, but he no longer has that dominating arsenal, and/or he refuses to use it due to pain or injury concerns. You don't think that getting in much better shape would allow him to "help himself" out on the mound, especially in terms of fielding? Isn't he being disrespectful to his teammates by caring more about his goatee than he does about holding runners on? We just have to face facts. He's been very lucky so far this season, for the most part. Now in no way, shape or form are Thornton, Putz or Santos going to be lock-down closers either, but they at least deserve the opportunity to try, if for no other reason than if the team and every Sox fan expects a blown save or 2-3 runners to reach every time Jenks goes out there, it's going to have a snowball effect on the rest of the season.....even if we had Prince Fielder, a bullpen with Jenks as closer only holding 60-75% of the the leads (and most of them have been 2 or 3 runs, I think) is simply not going to work. This team will be destroyed psychologically if we continue to blow at least TWO games that are already won per week. It can't go on. Yes, everyday and every game in baseball is a new chance, a new opportunity to prove yourself, but if you had to bet your house and life savings right now, would you bet that Jenks would have a sub 3.00 ERA going forward or would you bet with the house money that he would be at 5+ going forward? The last time he recovered, but at that point, he wasn't pitching for a first place team with every loss magnified.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 22, 2010 -> 11:09 AM) Point of bashing him is he's cost us two games since the ASB. I don't care if Osama Bin Laden is on the White Sox (you want to talk about bad facial hair), as long as they help the Sox win, then I'll cheer them on. Well, if bin Laden is the closer, he definitely needs to dye his goatee black or Sox silver because the salt and pepper beard won't scare or intimidate many opposing batters. But maybe it could make Joe Mauer bunt again with the winning runs on base...

The asking price will be a lot more than Torres, though. I don't see this happening, simply because I can't remember KW EVER reaching on an overachieving player at his optimum value (thus overpaying)...certainly not at midseason. Now you can say that he paid a high price in the original Swisher trade, but that wasn't overpaying based on his career results and his post-Sox career with the Yankees, and Gio has developed into an even more effective starter than many imagined (quite a few had him pegged as a reliever or 5th starter at best).

I think one of the original reasons he chose the White Sox was definitely the closeness of the relationship with Jaime Torres, KW and the "kinship" and success enjoyed by El Duque, Contreras and Alexei Ramirez with the White Sox from 2004 through the present. No doubt about that. Many felt we had our own version of a "Cuban Pipeline" of incoming talent. Of course, Viciedo changed agents to Boras eventually...personally, I don't think he will deal Viciedo, simply because KW wants to prove to the rest of the GM's how right he was on both Ramirez (paying low) and Viciedo (paying high). Maybe GM egoism shouldn't enter into the equation, but I think it does sometimes with KW. I really feel he believes that Viciedo will end up something like a Miguel Cabrera Lite, or, to go old school in comparisons, one I've heard mentioned pretty frequently is former Cardinal/Dodger Pedro Guerrero. You don't trade away 5 years of a cost-controlled Pedro Guerrero for the 2 month rental of Dunn, especially when payroll limitations mean you have to get contributions from Dayan, Hudson, Beckham, Ramirez, Santos, Flowers, Danks, Mitchell, Sale, etc.

THEN can we can respectively disagree on CF and RF. And I think Konerko's better now than he was before, as well. We just saw Andruw Jones save the game...a play Quentin or Dye never would have made.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 07:50 PM) According to UZR, DER (defensive efficiency ratio), and PADE (park adjusted defensive efficiency), the 2010 defense is not even comparable to the 2005 defense. I'm not talking about the COMPOSITE/ACCUMULATED seasonal stats. I'm talking about the actual White Sox defensive line-up on the field the last couple of nights. That means Omar Vizquel and not Teahen at 3B, the best version we've ever seen of Alexei Ramirez, a confident Gordon Beckham at 2B and Andruw Jones instead of Quentin in RF. That's a very different team than April/May of 2010. We've had two aberrational games (ones with Viciedo and even Vizquel struggling, although we did win the 5 error game) with a total of 9 errors combined, but I'm sure if you look at those other 35/37 games, you'll see a tremendous difference between the two defenses.

QUOTE (Ranger @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 06:44 PM) How do setup men affect save percentage? You either pitch in a save situation or you don't. Jenks has no control over whether they get the ball to him in the 9th with a 3 run lead or less and it wouldn't affect the percentage of times he's successful. Totally disagree with this on a baseball level. How many teams do you honestly think would've handled Jenks differently? Most teams give a closer of his track record a number of opportunities. I would argue that there isn't a single organization that would've pulled the plug on him yet if they were given the exact same personnel. We yanked Shingo early in 2005 when he was clearly struggling... But I am sure the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, Mets, Dodgers, Angels, etc., wouldn't give him as much leeway. #1, they have the freedom to "bench" him and go out and acquire another pitcher, and #2, money is not as much of a core issue with his contract as it is with Jenks now on the White Sox. If they had relievers like Thornton, Putz and Santos, they would probably try one of them (especially Putz) before going out in the trade market. Let's face it, Bobby was a pretty great "steal" and value the first 3-4 years of his time here, and now he's simply not much of an asset at all. I don't know if one team in baseball would take him off our hands and give us anything close to a Top 5-6 prospect in their organization. Not without us subsidizing his contract, which will never happen. There's also the theory that an NL team would take the gamble, but I'm sure their scouts are aware of the same issues we all are as White Sox fans.

Perhaps Jorge Cantu makes the most sense as an added bat now, or Xavier Nady. Someone along those lines...who won't cost a fortune to acquire. LaRoche is obviously still in play, too.

I thought it was a 4 year, $10 million contact, with a $4 milllion signing bonus. Have to check Cott's baseball contracts. $4M signing bonus 09:$1M, 10:$1.25M, 11:$1.25M, 12:$2.5M if Viciedo has enough service time to qualify for arbitration after 2011, he may void 2012 season (if voided, club may exercise option at $3.5M) award bonuses: $15,000 for Silver Slugger; $25,000 each for Gold Glove, All Star start ($15,000 for All Star selection); $50,000 for TSN All Star; $75,000 for LCS MVP; $0.1M for WS MVP; $0.1M for MVP ($90,000 for 2nd in vote, $80,000 for 3rd, $70,000 for 4th, $60,000 for 5th) So we've sunk $6.25 million into him already...and only have to pay him $3.75 million over the next two seasons and then arbitration for two years, like Alexei. So he'll be VERY cheap for 2011, and still quite affordable for at least two years after that. I'm not sure, but perhaps since he didn't play on the big league roster in 09, we would theoretically have him for 3 more years after this? Four? He certainly won't reach that service time for 2009-10 to get him arbitration after next year. My understanding with Alexei is that we'll still control his rights in 2012 and 2013, he'll just be a bit more expensive (arbitration/year to year contracts, or signed to an extension, like that Teahen deal).

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 09:50 AM) That 05 left side of the infield was unstoppable. The outfield was great with Rowand in center, Pods in left, and a still alright Jermaine Dye in right. Iguchi and Konerko were more than serviceable on the right side of the infield. Plus, back then, A.J. was actually able to throw some guys out. Pods was really bad (he improved his second time with us) and Rowand was simply overrated...because he dove all over the field and ran into fences, plays that Brian Anderson or Rios routinely make without breaking a sweat. Dye was never a very good defender at any point with us, because his arm was no longer a weapon. He had the reputation of having a very strong arm, but it wasn't close to what he had from around 1996-02 (not unlike Sosa, who had a great but inaccurate arm when he first came to the Sox from the Rangers).

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 09:40 AM) The 05 defense was better. Maybe they (2005 SOX) played better together as a team or unit, but just comparing Pierre/Rios/A. Jones with Pods/Rowand/Dye, it's not even a contest. Ramirez (of the last 6 weeks) and Uribe are a wash (some would give the edge to Alexei because of his superior range almost equal arm), Vizquel and Crede are a wash, Beckham will be better than Iguchi (not yet at turning double plays and the pivot/foot movement) and Konerko's having his best all-around season, offensively and defensively. I'll just put it this way....there's not one player from 2005 that is clearly better (defensively) at any position on the field compared to the 2010 team. Even AJ has been more successful throwing out runners this year compared to years past....although Contreras, Floyd and Jenks were the reason for a number of the steals, to name 3.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 07:15 AM) I really think being able to trust that the 3b next to him will get what he's supposed to get and more means that alexei has been able to completely focus on what he should be doing, not what he should be doing, plus how he needs to over for 3b. I think you mean not what he SHOULDN'T be doing...but the point is that he can relax, feeling quite confident about who is playing to the right and left of him. Plus it doesn't hurt for him to have someone out there next to him he can communicate with fluently. Comfort level or zone is often underestimated, but Omar's steadying presence has obviously had a positive effect, and we can finally bury those arguments about Beckham playing SS.

Well, Iguchi made some great plays, but I guess you could call him solid, if not sometimes spectacular, still I'd take Beckham's overall defensive potential and youth/range over Tad. Konerko's become an even better defender since that time, but he has always had his limitations in terms of range and athletic ability in terms of leaping in the air or being able to improvise and track down wide or high throws. Pods was sort of a mess for much of his early Sox career (by his second coming, he'd actually improved quite a bit in LF), Rowand was very solid but certainly not in Rio's ballpark as a defender and Dye versus Jones in RF, there's not much of a comparison there, either. The way Ramirez is playing, leading the world in TC and range factor and with Vizquel, who has the softest hands in the history of the game perhaps...you're going to be pretty hard-pressed to beat that.

Well, that's kind of the point I was trying to make....that you have to go back 50 years to find a comparable defense. Vizquel and Andruw Jones are not in their primes, but they're not far off defensively and have a cupboardful of Golden Gloves between them...Alex Rios and Alexei Ramirez are playing at nearly a Gold Glove level this season (especially Alexei since the streak started on June 9th), Pierre tracks down everything he can get to (yes, I know his arm is an obvious weakness), Beckham is full of potential defensively and Konerko's above average. In my lifetime, we haven't had a defense that comes close to the one we put out there the last couple of games.

http://detnews.com/article/20100719/OPINIO...0391/1129/rss15 Here's a Detroit writer who wants to sell off at the deadline instead of adding talent to the Tiggers.

I think they really should study this issue closely. There's a combination of players in Quentin, Viciedo and Teahen that could either play RF, 1B or DH. Psychologically, we have the perception that Quentin needs to play everyday, and yet he's battled the most injuries and the less time he's out in the field, the lesser the chance that he's injured. Viciedo is too young to DH until he proves he can't play either 1B or RF. My assumption is that Viciedo and Teahen would be fairly similar defensively, maybe a notch or two above Quentin (mostly because of their arms), but nothing great. Going forward, having a real RFer and DHing either Viciedo or Quentin has to be the move. Flowers has to stay at catcher or be traded to do much good for us. With Vizquel, you just don't know how long he can last...but you certainly can't bench him in favor of Teahen, and Ozzie would never do that at this point, after what Omar has meant to the team. The only place Teahen fits is taking Kotsay's DH at-bats, and playing RF/3B/1B occasionally.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 20, 2010 -> 10:25 PM) Aramis Ramirez to the Tigers is a scary thought It just became a little bit more expensive one for the Tigers. With all their contracts coming off the books, they have at least $20 million to play with, but sinking a lot of it into Ramirez...I think their biggest weakness still is starting pitching after Verlander. What has to happen again for Ordonez to come back in 2011? I'm pretty sure they shed the contracts of Bonderman, Inge, Damon, Laird, Guillen...although Inge is like Joe Crede there, they might make a play to bring him back, but he's not cheap at $6.6 million, it's a lot like our decision with AJ I suppose.

With Vizquel at 3B, Ramirez at SS, you have two very very good defenders on the LH side of the diamond, playing at nearly Gold Glove level together the last 6 weeks. Beckham and Konerko are both above average, with Gordon only showing the potential to get better at 2B. Then with Pierre, Rios and Andruw Jones, the best defensive outfield we've had. The only obvious weakness is AJ, but he makes up for it with pitching-calling, strategy, "gamesmanship" and leadership qualities. Of course, it won't last, Quentin will probably end up playing more in RF with Teahen taking Kotsay's DH role against RHP, but there's no reason not to give Jones more time in the OF as long as we keep winning and he remains dangerous offensively. Essentially, we've become the Mariners of 2009, with a better bullpen, good speed/athleticism and 25% more offensively talent. It's not a coincidence that Teahen going out of the line-up and Vizquel coming in has changed the complexion of this team...Omar has become something like a mixture of Ozuna and Uribe, injecting an atmosphere of defensive excellence that has permeated itself throughout the entire team. That's why KW must be hesitating to mix with the chemistry, it didn't work in 2009...and this team has become known for it's pitching, defense and versatility. Plus we really need Viciedo and Hudson going forward in order to compete in 2012. If it were possible, I would actually try to convert Quentin into a 1B, DH Viciedo and find an outfielder similar to Franklin Gutierrez.

"I'm very mindful of how this team has banded together and overcome a mountain of hurdles to get to where they want to get right now," Williams said. "So I think you have to be very cognizant of doing something that isn't, like I said, exponentially better and making sure it's not disruptive at the same time." On the rise: Left-hander Chris Sale, the Sox's first-round pick in the June draft, is under serious consideration for a promotion after making the jump from Class A to Triple-A Charlotte last Wednesday chicagotribune.com/sports