caulfield12

Hamilton has unlimited talent, almost. Ethier's a pretty talented player as well, he doesn't run like Barry Bonds with the early 90's Pirates, but he's a pretty nifty player. TWO WEIRD TWINS NUMBERS Morneau with only 2 homers (heel problem, Target playing really big) Only 9 errors committed by the Twins Red Sox will play the Phillies more this season than the Twins...how does that make any sense? Well, with how Boston has been playing, maybe we don't want MIN to play them so much.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 19, 2010 -> 04:50 PM) Some examples from this year of a rapid, successful retooling based on a couple intelligent moves appear to be the Tigers, who rebuilt their bullpen and rotation and freed up salary that they used to sign Damon by trading away Granderson and Jackson, the Padres who are now competitive in the West after dumping Peavy's salary, and perhaps the Blue Jays who dumped Halladay and Rios and look better this season than last at this point. You can argue "Yeah, those are extenuating circumstances" in every case...each team has gotten production from guys not acquired in those deals in helping them step up, but it's a workable formula. Another one I should have thought of before editing this post was the Rockies, who dumped Holliday and rode that deal to the Wild Card last year. The Tigers also brought into "new blood" in Perry, Porcello, Boesch (that guy's like Beckham in 2009, maybe better, but a defensive nightmare), Sizemore (2B), Raburn, Clete Thomas, Josh Anderson (I know he's gone now), Austin Jackson, Scherzer, etc. It helped that they let Lyon/Rodney go and were able to find the money for Valverde, as well. Hey, at least we helped make the Padres competitive by developing Clayton and Garland, lol.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 19, 2010 -> 04:46 PM) Let me let you in on a little secret which I keep repeating but you continue to miss: EVERY TEAM HAS HOLES with the possible exception of the Yankees/Red Sox! Stop establishing some nonsensical baseline that the White Sox should measure up to that only the two wealthiest teams in the league can. The teams that win are the ones that guess the best in the offseason and at the trade deadline and end up having those holes filled. But nearly every one of them is gambling in some respect that someone will step up. It happens every year, and you can point to these players who come out of nowhere with a career year, or a huge second half, or a huge postseason, etc. WE WILL NEVER HAVE AN ALL-STAR CALIBER PLAYER TO FILL EVERY POSITION/ROLE ON THIS ROSTER. Accept that. It's not a straw man argument. You and others are advocating a theory or model which is impliedly better than the one we are utilizing currently. I am simply looking for some past history of success that this model has. Show it to me. With the ferocity with which many are arguing for a rebuild, one would think the examples are everywhere, just waiting to be plucked out of the annals of history for all to see. As for your question about our current model, look at 2005. Kenny did something very similar to what he did this year as well as in 2008. He retooled the roster using smart acquisitions in sectors of the market which were undervalued. Jake Peavy, Alex Rios, Tadahito Iguchi, Alexei Ramirez, Carlos Quentin, Andruw Jones, Jose Contreras, etc., these are all examples of this. It doesn't work every year obviously, but it has worked. Well, then I'll play along. You build your team around dominant starting pitching and upper tier farm systems and let the chips fall where they may. See Atlanta Braves, Oakland A's, Marlins, Twins, Padres about 5 years ago You build with money and retool on the fly. Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, Mets, Dodgers (until McCourt divorce fiasco) You take even an riskier route and build around dominant offense: Cleveland Indians from 1994-2002 You follow an organizational philosophy of attacking and strong fundamentals, let opponents beat themselves: Twins again, Angels Not sure how to classify the Cardinals, they're the one franchise I think does the best job overall (considering budget limitations), but then they don't have to share a city. Minnesota's right up there with them at the moment.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 19, 2010 -> 02:34 PM) MacDougal and JD have zero to do with next year's salaries, those hits have already been taken. We're probably looking at committed salary in the $80-$85 million range after arbitration hits for Quentin and D1: the throwing Danks. And in terms of next year, Jenks and AJ are gone. Linebrink, Pierre, and Teahen all earn basically a pittance, less than $5 million; even if they're just part time players, that doesn't hurt you. Hell, even AJ sucking really doesn't take that much of a hit, because he's still a fairly low salary. The problem happens if all of those suck...and then you combine that sucking with one of the other 2 big contracts, and then you have no young guys producing to make up the gap. You've nailed the 2 real big contracts there though. Buehrle and Peavy. Those guys eat up nearly $30 million between the two. Don't forget Jenks at almost Papelbon numbers without being close to the same pitcher as the Red Sox have... That's almost $40 million tied up in 3 underperforming pitchers. That's your black hole right now. Granted, our offense sucks raw eggs.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 19, 2010 -> 02:32 PM) Well, we're going to have to disagree then. I happen to think a core of Rios/Beckham/Quentin/Peavy/Danksy/Floyd/Mark is about as good a core as you can ever expect to have unless you're the Yankees/Red Sox/Cubs and can spend $150 million. If you compare those 7 players to the rest of the league, I think it compares favorably to just about any other roster in baseball. As for the Tigers, I'm talking about their willingness to draft players who demand overslot money. Taking guys at 23rd who are legitimate top-10 talents goes a long way towards developing from within. How do you think a team like the Red Sox is able to win every year AND build strong farm systems? Being the optimist, throw in an offensive force at C in Flowers (let's say he becomes like a Napoli), Viciedo (Cabrera Lite) at 1B, Hudson (as a quality 3-4 level starter)and Mitchell doing a Carl Crawford imitation, then you REALLY have something good. I was going to stretch the point to Morel and Trayce Thompson, but that's pushing it a bit.

Winston Salem getting 3 hit and shutout. Brandon Short with one of the three...average at .385 now. Doyle (L, 0-1) 6.0 7 4 3 1 6 1 4.50

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 19, 2010 -> 02:21 PM) Really, those are the 3 players you think we most need to trade? At this point, I'm not sure why I should care. If they can't pull off a winning streak before June 13th, I definitely won't care about AJ being gone and replaced by flowers, and if they can't get anywhere close to the race by mid July, why should I be angry about trades that hurt this year's ballclub? Yes. Obviously Kotsay and Vizquel and Nix and Castro and Williams will go before them... We have no choice but to wait out Pierre and Teahen and see what they can do. I'm fine platooning Nix/Teahen. We have to hope Pierre can get his average back to the 275-290 mark at least. Linebrink is beyond worthless. He's just occupying a roster spot and eating up precious dollars that could have gone to Damon, Matsui, Guerrero, Orlando Hudson, Thome, etc. As for point 2, we might end up below 2 million in attendance and finish 22nd-26th in the majors in that category. It's JR's call, though...it will be interesting to see KW try to blame the fans for not supporting his lousy work product (AGAIN).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 19, 2010 -> 02:15 PM) I think it's worth noting that the combined annual costs of all the screwups you mention are less than the annual cost of Alex Rios, for example. If you're going to screw up and overpay somewhat for guys that fill holes that you have on your team, but you keep that cost down to a couple million per player per season, that really isn't going to be the reason why you lose if you have a $100 million payroll. And this is precisely the issue. KW has ZERO margin for error now. Add up MacDougal's and JD's buyouts, those 3 contracts....we're looking at an $85 million - $90 million payroll next year, agreed? Even with Jenks, AJ, Konerko gone...we have other salary escalators built in. If you want to look at the biggest per dollar invested failures, then you have to point at Buehrle, Peavy, Jenks, AJ and Linebrink, with Teahen and Pierre pulling in the rear end of those underperformances per contract dollar. Beckham, Quentin and Ramirez are still bargains. No doubt, many many hitters could be outproducing them, though.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 19, 2010 -> 02:03 PM) There's one other way to work it. Steal a piece or two with a couple of solid trades this year before the deadline to add to the list of Viciedo, Hudson, and Flowers, and then use the $15 million or so you have left to plug the remaining gaps. Really, there's no getting around requirement 2 though. But who do we have to trade that wouldn't hurt this year's ballclub, arguably? That list is limited to possibly Jenks, Garcia, AJ (if Flowers can be the offensive force SOME project and not kill us defensively), Andruw Jones (assuming KW could find another hitter out there to replace him), JJ Putz, Nix, Castro, TMK and Vizquel. The players we most need to trade in Pierre, Teahen and Liney are the 3 hardest to trade without just eating most of their contracts financially. Trading Floyd, Beckham, Quentin or Ramirez is beyond insane. I suppose you can make an argument to somehow trade Buehrle, Konerko, Danks, Peavy or Rios and get back 2-3-4 players (spreading the money out like we did coming into 2005)...that makes some sense. But that would require Viciedo stepping in right now for Konerko, for example. Same thing with Flowers or Hudson, maybe you do it and cross your fingers they light on fire like Beckham and that Beckham also reverts to form. Something has to change, that's for sure. Either players or coaching staff. FWIW, we'd need to get back a 3B and a #2 or leadoff hitter, IMO, along with a LHR reliever or just "general"quality arms for rotation/pen.

QUOTE (WCSox @ May 19, 2010 -> 01:43 PM) You can't spend on free agents like the Yankees or Red Sox without their cashflow. Unlike these teams, the Sox don't have the luxury of operating with their foot on the pedal every single year. Your comparison with the Tigers is silly. They're still living off of high draft picks from a string of last-place finishes in the early/mid portion of this decade, they've spent stupidly in FA in recent years, and they still haven't won anything yet. Unless you're suggesting that the Sox play like the Tigers did from 2001-2005, drafting alone isn't going to do it. I've been following the Sox longer than you've been alive, so I don't know where you get off telling me that I should follow a different team because I have a problem with spending $100M/year to finish in third or fourth place. Let's just relax. Many posters (myself included) irritate the heck out of some people, but I came off the ledge a long time ago and now am just looking for individual performances/progress more than team ones, from either the MLB or minor league rosters. There's no need, though, to say someone isn't a Sox fan or should follow the Yankees/Red Sox/Cubs/Cardinals/Phillies or whatever model franchises you can come up with. That's kind of silly to fight each other, isn't it? KW f'ed up, let's just admit it, going into both 09 an 2010. Let's be honest. Let's not blame KW's decisions on Ozzie either, as if that somehow exonerates him. I still think he's a #8-12 GM, and I'd MUCH rather keep him than Ozzie going forward....but he's made some very bad decisions with the likes of MacDougal, Teahen, Pierre and Linebrink (although we don't get to playoffs in 08 without him, is that worth paying him for 09-10-11, you tell me). Are Hudson, Viciedo and Flowers for real? Are Floyd, Beckham, Quentin and Ramirez as good as we think they can/should/might be? You could even say the same thing about Thornton and Santos as the closer, for that matter. If the answer to these 7-8 players turns out to be positive for 5 of them, we're okay. If not, Rios/Peavy/Buehrle are luxuries that we don't have the time to build around and this whole thing needs to be gutted. I will admit that the Rios decision now looks like one of the better ones in recent years, KW had a ton of guts....few GM's would have gone out and put themselves on the line like that, and that's precisely why you keep KW and part ways with Guillen/Cora/Walker. It's easier to change the coaching staff than the entire roster. (Note to Greg, yes, I know your feelings on Ozzie...lol...no need to defend him every time his managerial prowess is questioned, right?)

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 19, 2010 -> 01:42 PM) I know this...they're a lot more likely to be poured back into the club if they do exist. Dick Allen? Your comments are sought.

Good discussion. As far as the Twins not building dominant rotations, this isn't the reason for their losses in 2002-2004 and in 2006, to me, it was much more being 1-2 impact bats short on offense. They had the speed (Hunter, Jones, Stewart) and infield defense (Koskie, Guzman, Rivas, Mientkiewicz) and fundamentals/execution. In fact, it's very easy to see in hindsight, but if David Ortiz matured and became the player he late morphed into (illegally) with the Red Sox but had done it for the Twins, it's a COMPLETELY different story about this decade in baseball, with the White Sox in 05, Tigers in 06, Indians in 2007 and the best of all these ALCD franchises being the Twins, overall, on a consistency basis. Now, their pitching is a little soft, nice depth, but not really the unquestionable dominance of Liriano and Santana in tandem in 2006, paired with the steadying veteran presence of a bulldog in Radke to lead. I'll give you the fact that a lot of the Angels' prospects have busted, but they still had success with Kendrick, Morales, Aybar and an infusion of young/er pitching. It's not like all of their prospects have flopped like Brandon Wood, Casey Kotchmann, Dallas McPherson, etc. Plus, they have a much better manager and stick to a consistent, year in, year out organizational philosophy instead of grasping in the dark for a new spark. At least you have to give KW credit in one sense, he showed a willingness to try something new in 2009 by ridding the club of Dye and Thome. However, getting Juan Pierre 3 years too late and even thinking Mark Teahen was anything was more than a glorified utility player, these were two of the biggest mistake a GM could possibly make. Not because we gave up Ely too, but because we're stuck with both those guys, it hampers our roster reconstruction and payroll in ways that are hard to compensate for. Putz and Andruw Jones will be viewed as good/great moves, and they still won't make up for the two I mention and giving at-bats to Kotsay/Vizquel over a quality MLB HITTER/DH. All this discussion about AJ coming and going...KW and Ozzie are the only ones who know if the rotation can "accept" Flowers at this point. As fathom said, the time is drawing near to see what we have with him, and trading him and keeping AJ for 1-2 more years doesn't make much sense. The only way this whole thing works is: 1) Viciedo, Hudson and Flowers are all legit and adequately replace Paulie, Freddy and AJ 2) Quentin, Beckham and Ramirez play up to their potential, at least what MOST think they can do, especially from an offensive standpoint Along with the AJ decision, the most interesting one will be on Jenks. Are Thornton or Santos really ready to close? Is Thornton's arm about to fall off, like Mike Sirotka's? Jenks has enough stuff left in the tank to get the attention of 3-5 NL GM's who are looking for the final piece in their pens (like Wagner being added last year)....I just don't want to see any more Adkins/Durham or Felix Diaz/Lofton type trades. It woul be nice for once to get back some more legit prospects in a trade (like the Vazquez trade to ATL, or the anti-Swisher trade). Jones and Putz will make their own fates clear over time. TMK and Vizquel are irrelevant. Maybe Nix can put himself back into consideration moving forward as well, he's at worst an "interesting" player.

QUOTE (WHITESOXRANDY @ May 19, 2010 -> 08:36 AM) I don't see the value in spending $ 100 mil. a year in payroll to continually battle Cleveland and KC to stay out of the AL Central cellar. And, I disagree, there will plent of good prospects to be had for this group of players. But, that's why they need to dump them all. They need a lot of prospects and because the organization has been rn so poorly for so many years they have very few good prospects currently. Which, again, is my point. They need to gut everything and start over the right way. I don't want to watch this crap anymore. I'd rather watch a bunch of excited young kids win 60 games a year for the next few years while we pile up high draft picks, prospects, and develop them the right way. The problem is that Ozzie and KW have a pretty spotty record with developing and nurturing young talent (particularly position players)...especially with Ozzie lacking the willingness usually to play rookies over veteran players. One of the few exceptions to this was the promotion of Beckham so quickly last year, although Ozzie constantly bristled against high expectations being placed on his shoulders. We do have some "decent" examples of at least SPOTTING talent in recent drafts in players like Boone Logan, Clayton Richard, Chris Getz, Chris B. Young, Brandon Allen, Ryan Sweeney and Chris Carter. That's not a bad list.

Retherford 2B 4 1 2 1 0 0 1 0 0 .225 Danks, Jor CF 4 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 .234 Viciedo 1B 4 1 2 1 0 0 0 0 1 .294 Viciedo almost up to .300, Danks climbing, CJ finally with another 2 hit game. Hudson, D 5.0 8 5 5 2 8 1 5.36 Whisler 2.0 1 0 0 3 1 0 6.41 Hudson hit pretty hard. Short RF 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 .388 Escobar SS 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 .269 Gilmore 3B 4 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 2 .355 Lewis DH 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 .341 Sierra 2B 3 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 .295 Greene CF 3 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 .328 Leesman with a very good game, 7 IP, 6 H, 0 R, 2 K's Colligan LF 3 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 2 .272 Shoemaker, B DH 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 2 .306 Thompson, T CF 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 .220 Gonzalez, Mi C 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .219 Vera 3B 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .267 Thompson seriously slumping, 3 K's in 3 AB's. Not unexpected. We knew he'd go through his peaks and valleys this year. 2nd game, Thompson 1/1 with a R, 2 BB's, that's better. Now at .228.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 18, 2010 -> 05:34 PM) He has also resigned a lot of them to multi-year deals, such as AJ, PK, Contreras, Buehrle and others. And Teahen/Linebrink/MacDougal.

Surely Beckham was expected by most to be better than Iguchi. Didn't Gordon's rookie numbers in 2/3rd's of a season come pretty close to what Tadahito did in his full seasons in 2005/06 (plus, those 06 offensive numbers were so sick the first 4 months). Ramirez, same thing with his being a better overall player than Uribe. He's not showing it, but it was there in 2008 and for flashes over the last 18 months. Uribe's only really good offensive years happened early in his Sox career. as he faded late. Of course, AJ is older now. 2010 Rios is head and shoulders better than 2005 Rowand. Andruw Jones is certainly playing at a level equal to what we got out of DH overall that year (Thomas/Everett).

Thanks for reverse JENKSING a .216 hitter. Now you've guaranteed an Ordonez at bat with a chance to tie the game. It's like the don't talk about no-hitter rule. Every time we say that about a Piranha, they manage to beat us somehow.

Jenks just got one up to 97 MPH.

I don't like Jenks over Pena with the four run lead and non-save situation. But you have to get him some work so he can TRY to get a feel for his offspeed stuff. Otherwise, if we needed him tmrw against the Angels, he'd really be shaky(ier) coming out of the pen with so much rest. 96 MPH from JENKS, Santos at 95-98, Zumaya was around 100.

QUOTE (docsox24 @ May 18, 2010 -> 01:10 PM) nice work kid!! who goes the 8th, putz or pena? They stay with Santos until he gives up a hit/walk or PUTZ. No way it's Pena. He just hasn't been in that situation very often with us. Jenks has TOO MUCH REST. That means he'll be either lights out or struggle mightily to close the door.

Wow, Cabrera was at .458 with the bases loaded b4 that at-bat. Playing with fire there. Good job not to give up the tying runs. That's called "stuff" to bail you out.

Fell asleep. Pierre just made one of the five best defensive plays of the season it seems. Surprised that F. Garcia has held up so well at this point.

Tendon inflammation has Matt Thornton out of this game but not on the DL quite yet...

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...sp&c_id=mlb Anyone for trading our entire minor league system (minus T. Thompson, Mitchell, Hudson, Viciedo and Flowers) for Hanley Ramirez?

Viciedo with his 9th homer of the season, 19 RBI's now, .279 BA. Almost a 1.000 OPS in the month of MAY. Quite a tear. In other related news, Jordan Danks struck out yet again. http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2010_05_17_chraaa_swbaaa_1