caulfield12

QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 05:59 PM) Agreed about that first part, but none of the prospects that we've traded over the past five or so years have amounted to much. I'm perfectly fine with dealing guys like Richard and Poreda for Peavy and Olivo for Garcia. So then I'll roll this question, and I'm pretty sure of your answer. You would hold on to Hudson, Flowers and Mitchell (although I would hope it would ONLY cost Jordan Danks) instead of trading them for two years of Adrian Gonzalez, yes? If KW has demonstrated anything, he very rarely makes those "all or nothing moves" that are intended for winning it all one season but not being sustainable. You could certainly argue he's boxed in with the contracts of Buehrle, Konerko, Rios, Peavy, Linebrink, Jenks, etc. The problem most fans have is with watching winnable divisions (like 2009) slip away when the competition from the Twins is getting even stronger, and the Tigers have shown the willingness to still outspend us when their city looks like Ireland/Iceland/Portugal/Spain/Greece economically...and the fact that Eric Wedge is no longer the manager of the Indians. A lot of our advantages that we rode after the World Series title are now pretty much gone.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 05:58 PM) So you're claiming that Ozzie is just rolling with this roster and taking one for the team by pretending this is just what he has always wanted? If you had the Vizquel from 2000 with the bat hitting 2nd, Juan Pierre, Andruw Jones and Kotsay in their primes, then there would be absolutely no problems with this roster. You could hit Beckham 1st or 3rd and hit Pierre 1st or 9th with Vizquel 2nd. Unfortunately, we are going to have to use Pierre at leadoff 80-85% of the time and we are far from having an ideal #2 hitter. Beckham might have to hit in this spot, because Ramirez, AJ and Rios all have weaknesses in their approaches that preclude them being strong candidates for the role. It's kind of the same thing with Boyer or JR saying they have money to spend as Ozzie saying he loves this roster. Now he wasn't out there everyday hyping D-Wise as the leadoff hitter and starting CFer, I'll give you that. But everyone these days has their "PR spin" and they're not going to openly question their boss before things have gone south. I don't even have a problem with Andruw Jones as the DH against LHP, really. It's having sacrificed Dye and Thome AND not having coming up with a legit LH power hitter that's the obvious issue befuddling everyone on this board for months. Maybe Ozzie's just seeing Kotsay with rose-colored glasses based on 2009's second half, I don't know. Same thing with Juan Pierre's stat line from last year. In some ways, Kotsay having success led to this problem...the belief that he can repeat or sustain it at his age and with his history of injuries.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 05:46 PM) What do you buy then? That KW put himself in a financial straight-jacket with the Peavy and Rios acquisitions... There were a lot of "ifs" at the eve of 2005, too. Iguchi, Pods, Dye coming off an injury, and exactly what did El Duque have left, if anything? How close was McCarthy (not unlike Hudson this year)? Takatsu was the de-facto closer but everyone was worried about hitters sitting on his FB and laying off the frisbees (see One Tricky Pony). The bullpen, there were no hints of the seasons Cotts and Politte would have. The problem I guess is when there's no margin for error, everything has to go right. We have insurance for one injury in the starting rotation, that's good. I'm starting to believe that Tyler Flowers is going to be given a serious look as the DH at some point this season, maybe even in the first half. Otherwise, there's not really any logic to what KW is doing.

QUOTE (103 mph screwball @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 05:40 PM) Not for 8 million. No. Besides, if the Sox had put that much money into Damon, there would not be a spot for Konerko to DH when the Sox trade for Adrian Gonzalez. Felipe López is available too I think and he fired Boras. It's a DH guys. Hell Jermaine Dye would make a fine DH if that bridge hasn't been burned. If the Sox start the year with Nix a DH, it won't be the end of the world. We know the Sox have another 6 million to throw at the right bat, and they have prospects to trade. Screw Damon. He's a tiger. LET SPRING TRAINING BEGIN!!!! Do you really believe they're going to trade away Flowers, Hudson and Mitchell/Danks for A-Gonzalez? Forget about it. If the 2007 and 2009 seasons have shown anything, it's our inability to develop and not have to trade our minor league prospects that has put us in this defensive position with roster construction in the first place. Felipe Lopez most definitely won't be our DH, either. If the Sox start the year with Nix as ANYTHING but DH against LHP, then it will have been officially worse than starting 2009 with Anderson/Wise/Getz/Fields/Lillibridge/Miller. The irony is that after everyone has put the Thome debate behind them, KW will probably be forced to add someone like Adam Dunn and we'll be right back where we started, excepted likely 3-7 games back in the standings and having lost more prospects because we hadn't developed enough hitters in our minor league system over the last decade.

The fact that the Tigers are feeling they're back into this AL Central race speaks volumes. After basically surrendering the season with the trading of Granderson and Jackson for budgetary reasons, they've reversed course and added Valverde and now Damon. I guess this is the final nail in the coffin for any hopes the White Sox had for sustaining a new approach...it lasted from 2006-2010, but we no longer have the clear advantage over the Twins and certainly not over the Tigers in payroll or the willingness to spend that money. If KW has still had a difficult time keeping up with the Twins and Bill Smith (not nearly as effective as his predecessor Ryan....thank God they don't have Bartlett and Garza now) when MIN was operating at 65% of capacity, then why should we expect anything different in the future? I understand that sometimes moves like the Carlos Lee one will work out mysteriously in the end (while somewhat baffling at the time), but this approach isn't any better. We've constructed a Minnesota Twins-like team to play at USCF. Whoopee. Well, this is all on KW...I don't buy the whole blaming Ozzie thing for our present line-up construction. So, because this strategy worked in 2005, it will work again. We shall see.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 10:22 AM) KW obviously had been negotiating with Toronto about acquiring Rios, and it had to include Toronto eating some salary and the Sox sending viable players back, because if KW really wanted him and was willing to pay him the entire salary, why would he have risked Toronto placing him on waivers and having another team claim him? He obviously put the claim in to block. I'm sure he liked Rios as a player and probably coveted him, but not that contract. I'm pretty sure KW was as surprised as anyone his claim was successful or unsuccessful depending upon how you look at it. The contract is burden especially if Rios continues to play as he has. As for Konerko, it was widely thought the White Sox probably went at least a year too long with their contract, but that was after a WS win and Paulie was a hero. Losing him after that would have hurt some of the momentum they had built. Even with the 20/20 hindsight, and as much as I like to rip some of their mistakes, you can't give them a hard time about that contract. We'll probably never know...just like we'll never be privy to how close we actually might have been to getting "stuck" with Orlando Cabrera in 2009. I think, with all the talk last year about financial constraints and teams like the Blue Jays attempting to shed players like Rios and Wells that KW must have believed there would be at least a 75-80% chance of ending on the "wrong side" of a waiver claim, simply because of the fact that the teams with the option to place a claim before the White Sox were generally teams in a lesser position competitively and/or teams without the ability to absorb his salary. The fact of the matter is that he had already been "struggling" (his RBI numbers were okay, but the OPS/SLG was way down) for 1 1/2 years at the time of the waiver claim...so unless you went with the "change of scenery" argument, most GM's around the league weren't going to make the gamble on Rios being the one player (at least in 2009) to put them over the top. At the time of the acquisition, many posters were already arguing he was beyond "lost" at the plate (Walker later affirmed this) and that there wasn't a lot that could have been done to salvage the rest of the season in terms of the back of his baseball card. I also think there was the sense that last year's team wasn't going very far without a healthy Quentin...the only sort of sustained "hot" streak they had was right around the time of the Buehrle no-hitter where they very briefly pulled into a tie for 1st.

Besides Borchard and the failure of all the first round drift picks (and yes, Borchard did net us Thornton even)...the biggest "in your face" condemnation of the minor league system has to be the "forced" acquisition of Alex Rios. If KW didn't think Brian Anderson was the answer in CF, he wouldn't have traded away Rowand and Chris B. Young, not to mention Jeremy Reed and Anthony Webster. The other prime example of a forced acquisition to plug in a gap was the Nick Swisher trade, arguably one of KW's worst in the second half of his career, where he's made significantly fewer mistakes compared to the first 2-3 seasons on the job. When you look at the payroll inflexibility, it begins and ends with Rios and Konerko. Konerko's understandable. Peavy has a huge contract, but he's emminently tradeable if we had to dump salary (barring injury), Rios is a much more difficult proposition if he doesn't return to form. Danks, Floyd, Beckham, Quentin and Alexei are the five prime examples of why this team has a shot to win it all. Jenks used to be in this group as well, until 2009/2010, in terms of cost/benefit analysis. You could also make an argument that if Dayan Viciedo had come along with the bat quickly enough, he could have been able to take over for Konerko at 1B this year and that would have ended up providing the flexibility to spend an extra $14-16 million instead of just $4 million, which is currently leaving us $2-3 million short on Damon. Or the Linebrink contract, that's another hole in the budget, so hopefully we can get something out of him again this year.

Then in 2001 Albert Pujols would be saying "hi!"

But very few on this board have lived in Manhattan previously on a salary of $15 million...either. It's kind of like if you were used to driving a BMW and then they asked you to switch to a Ford Focus. Now if you'd never driven the Benz or BMW, it would be MUCH easier to get acclimated to a "middle class" compact sedan. It just depends on what expectations you have...

Konerko has had a lot of really good half seasons...he's definitely had his struggles as well. At times, his contract has looked like the worst on the roster, with the exceptions of Contreras and obvious ones like Linebrink, Toby Hall or MacDougal. Thome was overpaid last year as well...depending on whether or not you believe KW received any money from the Phils to cover the option year (the infamous Pat Gillick handshake agreement). In 2009 (Paulie) was perhaps our most consistent hitter, but his power was down a bit. It will be interesting to see what money Damon and Dye do eventually receive for one year (I don't see the Tigers giving him two). I also am curious if Konerko had entered FA in this market if there are any teams that would give him more than $5-6 million as well. I really can't imagine anyone commiting $7 at his age.

I wonder if we wouldn't be a better ballclub if we could trade Konerko and $6 million in cash for a B prospect....sign Dye for $3-4 million, stick him at 1B and use the other $2 million (in addition to what we're already offering) to sign Damon? Of course it will NEVER happen, but I'd feel more comfortable with Dye and Damon rather than Konerko/Jones/Kotsay. I know it's putting JD at a position he has little experience at, and Konerko is probably #1-2 to this generation of Sox fans in popularity...along with Buehrle and maybe Crede third. And he signed for less money after 2005, etc. I don't think JR would allow it, although KW might see the team as being improved, and there's certainly no guarantees about the production of Konerko, Damon or Dye...all are definitely on the downward plane of their career/s at this point.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Feb 18, 2010 -> 01:04 PM) I think the point is more about who you would want now, not what moves you could go back in time and erase. If that were the case you may as well just go back in time and erase the whole Swisher trade. People are putting way too much stock in Rios' month and a half here or whatever it was and not enough stock in his physical talent and his past career successes. I have no idea why some people here can think Mark Teahen is just going to go off here meanwhile Rios is a huge red flag. Rios is about 10X the player Teahen is and he always will be. And also, if we never did claim Rios, we'd have probably spent that money on Chone Figgins. My guess would be Figgins at third with Pierre in CF (ugh) because Pierre was always one those players that I think we all knew we'd one day end up with. The Damon/financial/$0.50 issue is only a product of Kenny's vision this offseason, which had the DH/big lefty bat as the last hole on the team to fill instead of the primary one. We had enough for one of Matsui/Johnson, or even a Thome/Dye or Vlad platoon as opposed to a Kotsay/Jones platoon, but improvement there obviously wasn't a major priority. What I don't understand is where this seemingly arbitrary figure of $4 million that we supposedly have available came from...Scott Merkin? Because there was the contradictory quote that we have the resources to add an "impact" player if we needed to at some point (reading between the lines, at mid-season, so the salary hit wouldn't be as large I suppose). It just doesn't make any sense to lose Damon to the Tigers over $1-2 million. I could see if the difference was $3-5 million, then you pass. But I think while he's not a superstar (and never really was), he would be a significant addition that would make everyone feel a lot more comfortable, and it would take a lot of the pressure off the likes of Beckham, Quentin and Konerko...not to mention Jones or Kotsay will start pressing as well if the offense is struggling in April/May to produce runs and either one start off the season like Dye in 2005, BA in 2006 or Alexei the last two seasons, the media will start hammering both them and KW...just like the CF situation last year when Wise was getting booed the first week as leadoff hitter.

I guess I looked at the question in terms of players who were actually still active. Of course, Frank Thomas (in his 90's prime) or Shoeless Joe Jackson would be the picks then, and I've love to watched Fox and Aparicio play together in their primes, too.

Sweeney, because we could get away with his playing CF (especially with Pierre and healthy Quentin on both sides), he's very affordable and it would have saved the questionable Rios acquisition. Using the Rios money, we wouldn't be having a discussion about the affordability of Damon, we could use the "surplus" to improve the bullpen and/or provide more depth to the back end of the rotation (although Hudson's a great alternative). For the minor leaguers, you have to go w/ C. Carter. Sweeney/Damon/RH bullpen help OR fifth starter (like a Maya type) >>> Alex Rios/Kotsay/Jones

QUOTE (knightni @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 05:00 PM) They have affiliates in Burlington and Cedar Rapids. I grew up in the Quad Cities and the 670 signal was the one I listened to. The local affiliates mentioned didn't come in very well...I think there was one in Geneseo as well, but I always preferred the mother station. And yes, AM1000 doesn't come in very well at all there. Spotty would be stretching it as a description.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 02:10 PM) Full-time DH's who put up strong numbers do not need to be able to play the field. Part-time DH's who put up questionable numbers and cannot play the field are literally not worth a league-minimum contract (maaaaybe as PH's in the NL) in my opinion. The roster spot is worth more dollars than the player at that point. Especially with us missing an infield-backup. Let's just see what numbers Thome puts up in 300-375 at-bats with the Twins this year and then we compare his "value" with what we get out of Kotsay or Jones on their deals.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 02:04 PM) it is semantics because what is the difference if he makes the team better in July or if he makes the team better in November. The only answer is the time frame. Those moves make the team better. KW is not getting a free pass on where the team is still weak. Hitting. He should get credit for improving the team's pitching and defense. if you still want to talk timeframes he still improved the team's pitching in the offseason with Putz and improved the bench and defense with Jones, and Vizquel. Hitting is still the team's weakness. With the budget the sox have it is near impossible to have an outstanding team in all three areas of pitching, defense and hitting. KW chose to go with a very good pitching staff, an average but improved defense and the weakness in the area of hitting. If I had to choose which order to spend the money i would do the same. Since the sox knew they were going to be weakest in hitting they are going with a "create a run" theory on offense instead of power. Will it work? I have no idea and it is a weakness. But given the choice I personally would focus on pitching as well. There's a BIG if if if in your equation. Putz. Because I'm sure not very many people feel comfortable right now with Pena, Linebrink and there's a pretty high amount of trepidation about Jenks as well. Williams? The long man. We have the POTENTIAL to be a great bullpen but more likely we'll be average. Second, it would have been impossible NOT to improve the defense, no matter what moves were made. I'm not sure that we can determine what we have with Jones in terms of his defense until Spring Training comes around and we see what his playing condition is...

http://baseball.about.com/od/newsrumors/a/09teamsalaries.htm We went from 6th in 2008 down to 12th in payroll in 2009. The White Sox public relations and marketing efforts were basically abysmal or non-existent in the 80's and 90's. The main marketing tool was the new stadium, and we know how well that turned out (especially the immediate reaction and comparisons to Camden Yards, not positive ones). I don't see how you can argue that we can't stay in the top 10 in revenue when we were 8th in 2008, three years removed from the World Series and following a disastrous 2007 season. It's simply a matter of producing a winning and entertaining product...if we're going to consistently be outspent by the Twins and the Tigers from here on out, that means we have to rely on either trades or our farm system. KW has been great with the first part of that equation, below average with the second facet of running a lower-payroll organization. YES, we did win the World Series in 2005 with a $65 million dollar payroll, but going back down to $75-80 million isn't going to cut it. If he wanted to do that, he never should have acquired Peavy and ESPECIALLY Rios anyway.

http://www.bizofbaseball.com/ForbesValuations.htm#2009 This is the most recent. In total revenues, the White Sox were tied for 8th with the Giants at $196 million. The franchise was the 10th highest valued at $450 million. I stand by my point that we have no reason (especially with the advantage of WGN) NOT to be between 8-12 in payroll every season. Second, the fans really supported the team in 2006 (and 2008 was pretty good) when we had one of our largest payrolls. However, as expected, the attendance has been going down every season for two reasons, the fact that we're now five years removed from the positive ancillary effects of winning the World Series AND the disappointing 2007/2009 seasons, not to mention the end of 2006.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 12:30 PM) That's an interesting straw man argument, but it's clearly not what I said. You would guess, but you don't really know. I'm not sure that I believe that the Sox are even #8-10 in the league in revenue, as they're not the only franchise that has raised ticket prices in recent years. Were their books audited recently? That would be the only way to truly know. To me, it seemed like you were saying that it was logical for KW to keep the payroll constrained if our attendance was in the bottom 50%. In other words, if you look at attendance in isolation, then it should be in line with your payroll, more or less? True/false? This was from before the 2008 season, after we hiked prices coming off the playoff appearance. The Red Sox had been first for many years but now it has flipped with the Yankees AVERAGE TICKET PRICES The Chicago Cubs, 100 years removed from their last World Series title, are second at $42.49, up 23.9 percent. The Yankees, in their final season at Yankee Stadium, have the third-highest average ticket at $36.58, up a big league high 26.1 percent. The Yankees' real average is much higher. Jon Greenberg, TMR's executive editor, said the team did not provide data and that he did not include the price of premium seating -- which covers a large percentage of New York's tickets. Yankees' box seats near the infield had a list price of $250 this year. The Mets, in their final season at Shea Stadium, have the fourth-highest average at $34.05, an increase of 20.5 percent. The Chicago White Sox are fifth at $30.28, up 5.2 percent. Twelve teams raised their averages more than 10 percent, including six with average hikes of more than 20 percent. I don't subscribe to teammarketing.com, or I could get the "Fan Cost Index," which from what I understand would also put the White Sox in that #5-8 spot as well. Then you have to figure in the broadcasting/media rights, there's no reason we shouldn't have a Top 8-12 payroll every year.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 10:37 AM) It's also quite possible that Jones gets DFA'd at some point during the season. If he's not producing or isn't healthy, dumping him would free up a roster spot. Over the past 6 months, Kenny has added Peavy, Rios, Pierre, Putz, Teahen, Jones, and Vizquel. I would've preferred Orlando Hudson over Teahen/Vziquel, but it's difficult for me to find much fault with the rest of those additions. Their payroll is currently just under $100M and they're in the lower half of MLB in attendance, so I'm not sure what else you want him to do. That's not quite accurate to say the fans aren't supporting the team. Attendance isn't as important as total revenue generated, and that was around #8-10 in the majors (because of our higher ticket prices/parking/concessions and media rights). In fact, if you look at total revenue generated, I would guess we're even closer to #1 in that category as we are to having the biggest payroll in baseball.

QUOTE (everafan @ Feb 15, 2010 -> 12:24 PM) They aren't a punch and judy team anymore - they will hit for sure. Pitching TBD. http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_leagu...?urn=mlb,219770 This. Be fully ready to be annoyed, it's kind of clever, but seeing it over and over again, I guess it's not unlike hearing the fireworks at USCF go off...but certainly a sure sign that their team has become the Chicago White Sox and we're now the Twins.

If $5-7 million was mere chump change for the Tigers, who are awash (still) in bad contracts, they would have spent a heckuva lot more money on a quality SS than Adam Everett. Even though that turned out to be a good deal overall, normally they'd have gone for someone with a marquee name if they weren't also watching their spending. The Ordonez/Guillen contracts really hamper them, and Cabrera's not cheap, either.

We could survive without Teahen playing....Nix could do a reasonable approximation, and I don't see many counting on him (Teahen) having more than a 750 OPS in most projections. It's living without Beckham and/or Ramirez over the course of the season that would be much more difficult to make up offensively.

I hope that nickname has better results than Jose Ponce DeLeon....