caulfield12

Well, the White Sox clearly have a huge and clear advantage over the Twins in the pitching department for the first time since 2005. I do worry about giving Tyler Flowers a lot of AB's at DH, because the reason the White Sox have had so much trouble breaking in young players (until Beckham performed) is that you can't play rookies like Borchard/Anderson/Fields, etc., when they're not producing. They rode it out with Anderson in 2006 for half the season, but it became a focus point of the media eventually, despite how well the team was playing overall. It's kind of a double-edged sword. The White Sox are usually in the thick of the division race and can't afford to have many throw-away years like 2007 (look how well Owens/Fields/Wasserman produced, and what they've done since, or dare I mention Andy Gonzalez?)...so KW and Ozzie are more likely to trust veteran players than rookies. Look what happened with the likes of Erstad and Mackowiak playing over Anderson. Now, I think we can finally put to bed the Brian Anderson Conspiracy Theory at least 75%. As for Flowers, he seems to be the type of player who would need to get regular and consistent at-bats, same with someone like Jordan Danks (just throwing out his name, because of his swing mechanics). I just don't see Flowers making the team as the back-up catcher and part-time DH. I think the only way KW will use him is either as a full-time starter at catcher after AJ leaves or as part of a trade, keeping his value as high as possible in AAA before the bloom comes off the rose, as it usually does with Sox prospects. For another example, look how long it took for Rowand and Crede to win starting roles in Chicago...and KW kept trying to replace Rowand seemingly every season (especially after the motorbike accident) because he didn't fully trust him as a starter AND wanted to go cheap with Reed/A. Webster/Young/Anderson all in the pipeline behind Rowand.

I would guess we're right at the payroll limit set by JR or over it by now...meaning the only question of the offseason remaining is whether losing Bobby Jenks is worth gaining Vladimir Guerrero as our DH. Interesting question...we have our most solid bench since 2006 by far, assuming Andruw Jones isn't a starter. Although right now, Pierre, Kotsay and Andruw Jones would be getting quite a few AB's if Quentin is really going to be the full-time DH. The main questions left are quality RH relievers, Williams (I'm assuming KW will pick up a Ray King or Arthur Rhodes type to compete in ST, just throwing out some random names for LH relievers) and the on-going DH issue. I haven't been paying so much attention this offseason, but a lot of the contracts are more back-loaded, so there's not QUITE as much pressure on the payroll in 2010 as there might have been had Hahn and Company not been so prescient in setting things up well to best compete the next couple of years with that rotation in place. Finally, Vin Scully's a baseball announcer I admire about as much as any in the game, and he said when Pierre made a "mental" error one time last season that it was the first time it had happened in a Dodger uniform. In other words, he's a solid baseball player who doesn't make mistakes, the anti-Pods. Sure, we know he doesn't hit for power, he's got a horrible noodle arm and he's got a pretty low OBP, but look at what we started 2009 with on our roster. But he can definitely lay down a bunt, haha. Ozzie likes veterans more in general, and he's been close to Pierre since his Marlins days. If nothing else, we're accumulating former Dodgers' outfielders, unfortunately not Kemp, Ethier or Ramirez (well, that would never happen under KW and JR!) Pods, in the end, was just too much of an injury risk to sign for two seasons for about the same amount of money, and Pierre's a better overall defender.

QUOTE (joeynach @ Dec 14, 2009 -> 01:22 AM) Do you have any details or links with information on the deals with Accenture and Gillette? Sorry, I was just joking, in light of all the Tiger Woods controversy the last two weeks....thought they might be open to investing in White Sox baseball. Speaking of sponsors (and yes, this is off track but I don't want to start a new thread)...have we heard anything about the marketing department this off-season? "We picked the absolute worst time to have an exclusive bank deal and a significant deal with Buick Pontiac GMC. The Chicago budget for Buick Pontiac GMC dropped over $16 million, in Chicago alone. So we lost that deal in one way. Luckily, we’re in a multiyear deal with Chevy, so we’re seeing some of their other money. Our exclusive bank deal, five years ago when we did the deal, it was brilliant. All the stars were aligned. LaSalle Bank was in Chicago, it was deeply rooted in Chicago. It was a perfect match for our brand. But little did we know that five years later, we’d be in the situation that we’re in now [bank of America acquired LaSalle in 2007]. So we’ve lost Bank of America as a partner, and trying to find a new exclusive bank in this economy is not easy. We get it. Those two hits alone, and then to have Motorola in our backyard face the challenges they’re facing, have definitely hurt us." Brooks Boyer in April, 2009

Well, the other thing you have to consider is our dearth of Top 10 picks over the last twenty years or so. The last really significant "big-time" prospects before Beckham were probably Joe Borchard and Jon Rauch (I suppose you could include Kip Wells and Jon Garland in there somewhere too)...speaking of Borchard, flipping him for Matt Thornton has to go up on the all-time Top 5 KW moves list, too. Our system actually isn't even in the Bottom 10-12 teams in terms of producing major league players, it's simply that we haven't produced very many All-Stars of our own after the Magglio/C-Lee/Durham triumvirate, there's really only been Crede and Rowand since (for position players). We're good at producing Angel Andy Gonzalezes and Ehren Wasserman types to fill out the last three roster spots. Buehrle was perhaps the least likely of all those pitching prospects to make it in the 1998-2002 group. Ironic, that Buehrle and Josh Fogg, along with Chad Bradford, would end up having the biggest impact on the game...not Wells, Ginter, Rauch, Barcelo, Danny Wright, Aaron Myette, Jason Stumm, Rob Purvis, Brian West, etc (all of those "power arms" that KW was collecting at the time). It will be interesting to see if anything ever comes of the T. Thompson pick...we've gone through so many athletes trying to play baseball (Borchard, Josh Fields, Brian West, Brian Anderson, Chris Young) that Beckham stood out as a "pure" baseball player, so different from the typical White Sox draft pick. In some ways, Chris Getz also seemed to fit this mold as well, not the kind of player off the charts in the scouts' ratings but something akin to Bobby Hurley or Chris Corchiani, a "gym rat" who forced his way onto every team he played for.

This move seems a bit ill-advised. With all the money we've wasted on Toby Hall, Castro, Mike MacDougal, Linebrink and Contreras, you'd think we'd be more "penny wise." Now the odds are DJ won't repeat his 2008/09 success yet another season, but how can they know? I'm assuming they're penciling in Hudson into the same role, or Hynick, someone like that...assuming that Garcia is the fifth starter to open the season. So I guess I'll look at it purely from the perspective of bringing in younger talent with more upside, rather than a cost-savings. Maybe it will be both. While I'm not sure he was the MVP of the team, he was critically important in a way that casual baseball fans could never understand over a long, 162 game season...but especially in July/August of 08. You also never heard anything negative about him...being anything but a stable, veteran clubhouse presence and a solid teammate. Hopefully, KW can get that chemistry/mix mojo working again, it's been hard to find a consistent chemistry with all the personnel changes this team has made over the last five seasons. I would guess our roster turnover has been in the Top 10-15% of all MLB teams during that timespan. We'll just have to wait and see if we sign Guerrero/Matsui/Damon and/or get a new leadoff hitter on the backs of new deals signed by the market department with Gillette and Accenture.

I would think there's a team out there that would give Vladimir Guerrero at least $5 million guaranteed for 2010, it not a bit more. Heck, just for name recognition alone, having Guerrero and Andruw Jones on our team would probably pay for itself, especially Vladimir. He's still one of the most recognizable names in the game today...and the entertainment value of having The Impaler and The Cuban Missile on the same team, with their propensity for swinging at almost everything within range of home plate, would be a sight to see (or bemoan). I also picked Guerrero as the most likely name for us, over the likes of Matsui/Damon, Thome and others that have been bandied about. Also, HOPE Merkin is wrong about our bullpen (the names he listed from our minor league system don't impress very much), and I think he's overestimating a bit how quickly Jordan Danks and Jared Mitchell will be making significant contributions. Danks is very much a work in progress, a little like a Ryan Sweeney with perhaps more upside potential because of his athleticism and ability to play CF so well, but just as likely a candidate to go Brian Anderson on us at the major league level because of his swing. Worst-case, we go with ONE internal candidate for the bullpen and cover the other one through veteran signing "on the cheap" or the waiver wire. If Jenks is gone, that really could throw the entire bullpen situation into disarray, but if we could have Vladimir Guerrero and another reliever (maybe even Putz) instead of Jenks, I would go for it and cross my fingers if I were KW. I'd really be curious to see the physical condition of Jenks 2 month into the offseason.

Maybe it was more based on "expectation" and the numbers Beltre put up offensively before going to the M's. He had that one, huge breakout season and parlayed it into a big payday but never came close to duplicating those numbers....defensively, he's better than Crede, there's no question about that aspect of his game, his arm strength, etc. Sexson was the worst of all of those, although Washburn in close. On second thought, perhaps Silva! Vidro had some good years at least offensively. Johjima was more about the ownership group and their commitment to continue to "sell" to the Japanese market and make further inroads, but that was a reach. When you look at the advantage we SHOULD have over the other markets (Detroit is being forced to sell off Edwin Jackson and/or Granderson because they were spending beyond their means) in our division, it's comparable to the LA Angels situation. The only wildcards are whether the Twins can keep Mauer AND Morneau with their new stadium and whether the Indians will bounce back with a new manager.

I might be wrong...but I'm not sure how well-supported a early 90's to mid 2000's run (like the Braves had) would be supported in terms of attendance. The Braves only had one World Series title, and Braves fans really became bored with those teams falling short or not being built with all the components to win it all...maybe that's expecting too much, perhaps. It did take at least 8-10 years before the attendance really started to fall off, and I think a large part of that was due to the corporatization of the Braves, Ted Turner leaving day-to-day oversight and the fact that the really exciting teams and playoff appearances with that team happened in the early 90's through the mid to late 90's, then fans sort of lost interest and stopped coming in record numbers, and maybe the appeal of the new stadium (it's "okay") also started to wear off, too. Of course, any Sox fan would love to have that type of home-grown dynasty (Glavine, Smoltz by trade, Avery and then acquiring Maddux). My question would be how long White Sox fans would "pack the park" and pay rising prices if the White Sox continually flamed out in the first round of the playoffs, like more consistent franchises such as the Twins (and previously) the A's have done? Would there be diminishing returns with attendance until the White Sox won another World Series again? I think the closest example we can aim for is that of the Angels' sustained success, their fight under Moreno pull up almost even with the Dodgers in that market, consistent playoff appearances, that's setting the bar about as high as you can.

QUOTE (chisoxt @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 02:00 PM) I for one hope that KW will be kicked upstairs soon and Hahn assumes control of the team. Face it, 05 was great but it was fluke. Since that time, Kenny has used the approach of leveraging prospects for older veteran types who have bigger contracts. Eventually, in order to have repeated success at CONTENDING we have to eventually develop a strong farm system where we not only develop good players but maybe actually keep a few of them. With the decline of hormone and amphetamine use, baseball to a large extent is reverting back to old days when power wasn't as important as pure fundamental baseball skills like speed, defense, on-base %, etc.. Things worked out OK in the last few years when we had the gate and advertisers to support a larger payroll, but with some bad seasons recently and a poor economy, I do not see Kenny's strategy of acquiring older and more expensive players , whether through free agency or trading prospects, as being sustainable. Sure getting Jake Peavy was great and our rotation is shaping up to be awesome next year but what about the rest of the team? I see us leading the league in quality starts but finishing in third place. What about the other holes on the team? I know that as a fan, I am in the minority here, but I think that future success will hinge on a younger team developed from within. First of all, I think just because Hahn is very good with the business side of things, that's certainly no guarantee of success in the much more high-profile world and microscope of being an MLB GM. Look at what happened with Dan Evans in LA and how short his tenure was in that position...I would say at the time, there were many or perhaps even more who preferred him over KW. The reason KW has adopted his plans over the last decade are partly due to the traditional White Sox fan base (not supporting rebuilding or even .500 teams)...the competition with the Cubs for the media spotlight...the desire to "entertain" the fans with shows of offensive output/HR's...and his overall lack of patience and desire to "go for it" each and every year. Lots of GM's would be very hesitant to make the Rios move, but KW did it because he has the full faith and confidence of Reinsdorf. But I think 15-20 GM's would never dream of pulling the trigger for fear of that move haunting them in the future and bringing a premature end to their "honeymoon" period. The fact of the matter is that KW and Ozzie hate losing as much, if not more than, most White Sox fans (although some are arguing that Ozzie lost his fire and chip on his shoulder in 2005). That's all you can ask for. As another example, look at Bill Smith in Minnesota. He was a brilliant farm director but has been pretty abysmal as a GM, in terms of the moves that he has made. Now the major league teams have outperformed his GM performance (same thing happened with the Sox in 2008) for two years in a row, but I don't think any Twins fan would possibly argue he's been anything but a shadow of former GM Terry Ryan. Now just because Dan Evans and Bill Smith haven't worked so well...that doesn't mean HAHN will fail as well. But beware of the back-up QB momentum...90% of the time, you miss your first stringer when he's out, and the fans come to realize why he was the first-stringer in the beginning. I think the same will be said of KW and even Ozzie when they're gone and been replaced by others within the Sox organization. We will miss the KW swagger, his attitude reflected by his comments about the Tigers "being in a better position to compete with the Sox" after the Miguel Cabrera move....KW watched Dave Dombrowski (another former Sox front office guy) practically turn that organization into the Titanic in terms of the financial implications of that roster moving into 2010, and he didn't overspend but was careful/cautious, knowing he didn't have the team to win it all yet. I think 2010 and 2011 will be much more significant for the eventual fates of KW and Ozzie than 2008/09 were, both feeling like transition years in turning over the roster.

But we spent $12-13 million USD to do it....unfortunately. Looking at the cost of Andruw Jones in 2009 versus Thome's portion of the payroll, there's no comparison in overall value. And Jones' decline would have dovetailed nicely with the funk we went through the final two months of the season.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Nov 26, 2009 -> 02:08 PM) Um, huh? Dunn's averaged 41 HR and 101 RBI the last 6 years. That definitely would excite me if he were available. I was saying this more from the standpoint of watching the same kind of 3 run home run and a cloud of dust offense the last decade. It's just that the names have changed from Valentin, Ordonez, Thomas and C-Lee to what's left, Konerko and Co. Guess I'd be okay with Dunn, much moreso than Johnson, knowing Johnson is ten times more likely at this point. Certainly, you'd have to pick him over Thome, but then again, that's arguing apples to oranges with payroll being the most important number, not who's better or younger. 2005 proved we could win with a very different offensive mix, although I think the missing presence of Dye will be understood more fully this season. He was so underrated around the baseball world, but not by die-hard White Sox fans. It's just that with Dye and Thome seemingly gone, it would be a nice change to have a different offensive approach take hold in this organization. Of course, 100%, homers will always be important at USCF. That said, finding the equivalent of the next Chone Figgins (but NOT him or Pods) would excite me a lot more. NOTE: AJ will not be our catcher for 3 more seasons...maybe 2, but three is hard to imagine at this point, unless Flowers is really gone. Also, Thome has averaged 32+ homers and 90+ RBI's (not even adjusting for missing 2 months with us this year) in a much more difficult league, but nobody's exactly clamoring to bring him back.

Williams' job is more secure than Guillen's, of course, but the Peavy and Rios acquisitions were his riskiest yet, since the Todd Ritchie and David Wells moves in 2001/2002. Both have the potential to pay off big, and both could be seen as huge albatrosses, but would have to be considered legit risks (based on cost/benefit analysis at the time of those moves). As someone said earlier, those pesky Twins have made KW look silly consistently winning with lower payrolls and a much better farm system, not to mention teams that simply don't beat themselves very often. For that matter, Dombrowski has looked bad, too. Then again, the White Sox and Tigers both went to the World Series, and the Twins have now lost 10+ playoff games in a row. But you really would be hard-pressed to argue how KW was better than Terry Ryan, except for that 2005 season. On a consistent basis, and especially taking into consideration payroll, Ryan beats him hands-down. Then again, the biggest move for that franchise was a non-move, them "lucking" into Mauer when the Cubs took Prior. Thanks to that move, they inherited the best young player in the game at the most important position. Even without Morneau, they were able to make the playoffs, and with Scott Baker as their "ace." Very impressive, although Smith has been a pretty lousy GM, comparatively. It's amazing (that Hahn's son guessing right) has turned the comparison to 3 White Sox division titles versus 5 for the Twins to what just could just as easily have been an unforgiveable 6 to 2 ratio for the Twins over the White Sox (with 2002 and 2007 going to the Indians and their underachieving Shapiro/Wedge combo). Then again, that WS title in 2005 makes a lot of give both KW and Ozzie Guillen a TON of slack/rope.

JJ PUTZ is a "gap" signing? REALLY? Are we now the NY YANKEES? Maybe bringing back LH RP Williams or Sean Tracey, lol. Carl Everett...might as well add Mark Mulder, Penny or John Smoltz to the list, haha. Those would be gap signings. Byrd, Crisp, Matsui, Damon...we speculated all last off-season about Bobby Abreu and also O-Dog, Abreu in particular became uber-cheap, and we still didn't get him. God forbid, Milton Bradley if the Cubs eat 80% of that salary, or Soriano. That can't happen though, it would be too embarassing for them to send Fukudome/Bradley/Soriano, PAY for either one of them, then watch him lead the White Sox to the post-season. Same problem with DET eating the contract of Ordonez, Carlos Guillen, etc. What would be incredibly awesome would be getting Edwin Jackson for a cheap price from the Tigers, but even DD isn't that stupid. They would try to dump Robertson, Bonderman or Dontrelle Willis and KW would have none of it...well, maybe he would be intrigued by Bonderman or Willis with the right amount of money to subsidize either deal, say 85-90%!!! For some reason, having Adam Dunn or Nick Johnson here isn't very exciting. Perhaps we'll keep hearing some "newer" old names arise, besides Upton, like Cody Ross, Francouer or Hermida.

Yeah, but we've also ditched Fields, Getz and a number of busts like Broadway, Anderson....and crafted a very veteran bench, like 2006. First of all, to quote JR, "Peavy and Rios" were our big splashes. Second, KW's style has almost always been to wait until mid-season to make adjustments, although he should have learned from the LH RP debacle and the Owens/Wise/Lillibridge/Miller/Anderson/Fields one not to start the season with 25% of the roster in chaos or fill-ins. Third, Pods/AJ/El Duque/Hermanson/Vizcaino/Iguchi/Dye...none of those guys were SPLASHY additions, in fact, most were bemoaning the "idiocy" of KW letting Valentin, C-Lee/El Caballo and Ordonez go and replacing them with speculative players at that time. Dye was definitely a typical White Sox rehabilitation on the fly type of signing, far from a sure-thing. Can you tell me that any of those names are MORE exciting than Peavy or even Rios (based on his age and potential return to mean?) Fourth, we've probably reached the tipping point with our payroll...certainly you don't see them adding more than another $3-5 million unless they can somehow subtract creatively Linebrink/Konerko/Jenks. Fifth, we're not going to trade away our captain going into this season, it won't happen.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 25, 2009 -> 06:19 PM) He probably is a slight upgrade over Josh Fields offensively for slightly more money, but nothing that can't be eaten. I'm shocked the Sox signed a Boras guy in November and Boras took it at this time. I do agree he appears to have had some help putting up numbers in the past. If anything he could be exhibit A to Bobby Jenks about what happens to guys who don't take their fitness seriously. Its a blah signing. I'm looking forward to the real moves. I'm just curious as to why the Rangers didn't want to bring him back. The Josh Fields of ST 2009 (he of the better vision and quick bat, and numerous doubles) MIGHT be comparable to the way Andruw Jones laced the ball the first half of the season. MAYBE. But, no matter how out of shape and malcontented and difficult Andruw Jones might be...even shaped like Richard Simmons, he can still patrol his position defensively as a back-up 10X better than Josh Fields could ever defend (I'll take that back, Josh made one nice play on Opening Day, 2009).

To sign Crisp as the starting LFer, with Jones and Kotsay as your back-ups, that's not bad. That's assuming we get expected production from Rios and Quentin, 775-800 OPS from Rios and 875-925 for Quentin. If neither one of those eventualities occur, then we're in big trouble. Everyone would feel much better if we knew who our DH (Vlad. Guerrero, Damon/Matsui) and leadoff hitter would be. It's a lot easier to tolerate Crisp as the starter and leadoff guy with a quality DH in the fold...and for those imagining Jordan Danks playing CF in Chicago in 2010, that's about as close to happening as Viciedo playing 3B or DHing. Still, the bench is dramatically improved from 2008/09. Then again, we had, on paper at least, a very good bench coming into 2006 and look what happened, there are no guarantees (and that team went down the drain more due to the pitching hitting the wall, although the offense also faded and Jenks was battling injury problems as well, all 3 things hit simultaneously). As someone mentioned, Andruw Jones wouldn't be bad at all as a platoon DH against LHP if Thome was brought back. We can't compare Jones, even at this stage in his career, to playing Erstad, Mackowiak or Brian Daubach in CF. There have been questions about his age ever since the first time I saw him play for the Macon Braves in the mid 90's, nobody believed he was really 19 then either. He might actually be closer to 34-36.

They always said about Quentin that those kind of hand injuries typically took one full season to heal...not unlike Tommy John, and that the second year was the bounceback year. Of course, there's no guarantee that the rest of CQ will be healthy and durable, but numbers in the mid-range between 2008 and 2009 would be great.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Nov 24, 2009 -> 06:29 PM) Another idea if we could get Adrian for prospects: Konerko ($12M) + Linebrink ($5M in 10, $5.5M in 11) for Affeldt ($4M in 10) + Rowand ($12M in 10-12) + cash in 2012 Sox would cut $1M off the payroll. Affeldt would be the lefty setup man if Thornton becomes the closer, or else Affeldt would be the 2nd lefty. Rowand becomes our RF in 2011 for basically $6.5M if you consider Linebrink a sunk cost. In 2012, the Sox get about $5-6M cash from the Giants to make Rowand's deal worth it. The Giants OTOH would get out of about $12M in commitments to Rowand while upgrading 1B in 2010. S Crisp LF (if we do sign him) R Beckham 2B L Gonzalez 1B R Quentin DH L Pierzynski C R Rios CF L Teahen 3B R Rowand RF R Ramirez SS The problem is that the way bullpen numbers always fluctuate, Linebrink might end up having another great year...losing Dotel, Jenks and Linebrink, it's scary to think of the RH side of the bullpen, and the bargain-basement approach just doesn't work on a consistent basis. We have Carrasco and Pena, but I'd shudder to think what would happen if we had to fill those 2 spots with the likes of Santeliz, Jh. Nunez, Link, etc, or even worse, a veteran along the lines of Ed. Sierra, Jeff Nelson or Jose Paniagua. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, the former stud prospect with the Tigers and A's that we had at Charlotte last year, but we don't need any more reclamation projects. It's amazing to think of the confluence of events that saw Shingo out the door, Hermanson/Politte/Cotts are dominating and then an impact arm in rookie Bobby Jenks arriving in the back end of the season. We've learned since 2005 that the stars and galaxy don't line up that way very often.

QUOTE (balfanman @ Nov 25, 2009 -> 11:38 AM) I don't necessarily disagree with that. If they are thinking of trading Jenks that would leave a big hole in your bullpen that you would most likely wind up overpaying for someone anyway. I think that if your going to overpay someone Dotel is probably a better bet to have a good season than anybody else I've heard mentioned as available and you would still be paying Dotel less than what Jenks would make in arbitration. If Dotel doesn't accept than you have the draft picks. As always JMHO. They simply can't afford to bring back Dotel at $6 million (his salary last year), let alone the $6-7.5 million he would be sure to get in arbitration if the White Sox tried to cut his salary from down to $4.8 to $6.0 million. Dotel also has a horrific history of injuries going back to his Oakland and Houston days. I think we were relatively lucky to get what we got out of him...of course, not so with Linebrink, although you can argue Scott was one of the key reasons that we won the ALCD in 2008, based on his first four months of near perfection. An arbitrator would look at those seemingly wonderful numbers of OD's and end up giving him north of $7 million, almost the same as what Jenks will get. We cut lose David Riske without making the offer, I'm 98% sure KW won't take the risk. In these market conditions, there's no team in baseball that will pay OD over $6 million per year to be a 7th inning pitcher. Sure, his stats are great on paper (like Javy Vazquez), but the reality is that he just can't do it in the 8th or 9th inning consistently. We're also stuck with Linebrink and Pena (because KW won't cut him lose until at least mid-2010, if then), so Dotel is the logical choice to go, even if Jenks is also gone, Dotel can't be slotted into the 8th inning...just as I don't believe that Thornton would make much more than an average closer, at best. If you could make an argument that cutting Jenks lose and allocating that $7.5 million in savings to another player (DH/leadoff/OF) would happen, you'd have to at least consider it. The surprise performances of Iguchi, Pods, AJ, Hermanson, Dye, Vizcaino and El Duque (well, 3 outs and some decent stats before B-Mac showed up the last 6 weeks) would seem to argue that a combination of CoCo Crisp and 1-2 more players in that $2-3 million range (similar to what the Red Sox tried this past offseason with their bargain basement FA moves) just might work.

I would much rather take a risk on a younger Crisp at one year for less than Pods for two (even if the numbers are similar to what W. Taveras got last year from the Reds). Before the season started, I argued for adding Crisp and Blake, two former Indians. Crisp wouldn't have worked out because of his injury, but I still would have preferred Blake to what happened (and now to Teahen, but you can argue it, especially with Blake being more expensive). Then again, at the time, there was Josh Fields at 3B and I can't even remember if Viciedo was in the picture. It seems there is serious consideration being given to improving the defense this offseason, with the notable exception of the Teahen move, although you could HOPE that Ramirez with one year under his belt and Beckham at 2B would lead to a better overall defense, especially with Rios now up the middle. As far as the outfield, you'd have to play it Crisp in LF, Rios in CF and Quentin in RF to make it work, with Kotsay as the primary back-up and also taking some time from Konerko...De Aza, we'll see, I won't get excited about him until he actually makes the team. Signing Matsui/Damon (whichever the Yankees let go) or Vladimir Guerrero would be the logical route for DH, but it seems we're about $5 million or so short in terms of being able to make a competitive bid for either, leading to the belief that Thome will come back, since his options are even more limited (not having a position) than Vlad the Impaler, Damon or Matsui. It's an interesting question...if cutting Jenks lose would mean Vlad Guerrero or Hideki Matsui would be part of the 2010 White Sox, I'd have to give it serious consideration if I were KW. Unfortunately, it's not as easy as getting rid of Linebrink, because nobody would take him off our hands. Still, the possibility of Thornton as the closer doesn't overwhelm me, and moving Matt back weakens our pen even further.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 22, 2009 -> 08:55 PM) Brandon McCarthy for John Danks and Nick Massett? that was more of a prospect for prospect trade....although McCarthy was certainly at the time seen as more "big league ready" i meant, a package of prospects being traded for a Top 10-20 in the minors type, like Joe Borchard at the peak of his career with us, on Jon Rauch before the labrum injury

KW really has never gone for that kind of a move, a Brandon Jennings. As great as his potential might be, KW always errors on the side of finding undervalued/underperforming talent. I can't think of one instance in his history where's overpaid for an unproven prospect, trading away the likes of Flowers/Hudson/Mitchell, etc. and a couple of other pieces to get him. In fact, his track record is just the opposite, trading overvalued prospects for proven talent. Yes, there are always going to be players in hindsight that you would have traded for (like an Evan Longoria), but 80-90% of the time those elite prospects never produce as expected, at least enough to justify their massive price tag in terms of talent surrendered.

I don't think TB would be too interested in D2, certainly not as an option for 2010. Hudson and Flowers would definitely be the starting place...it would be a huge gamble to give up cost-controlled starting pitching and a catcher to replace AJ for 6 years, if that's really where the club sees him sticking. If KW knows Flowers or Viciedo is ticked for 1B, then I would make this trade. Including Jenks in the deal means we would have to take back another contract from them. I'm not such how motivated they would be to take Jenks, it would be a huge gamble...and some of Jenks' biggest implosions last season came against TB, so maybe they're skeptical about him retaining his elite closer status. Of course, overspending for someone like Jose Valverde is risky too, but you don't have to give up any major league talent...and there's 4-5 other interesting guys out there on the closer's market that low payroll tier teams like TB would look at first IMO.

I don't think there's any way to start making judgements on Viciedo until AT LEAST the end of this season...and, even then, the kid will only be 20 or 21 years old. With the success of Contreras and Alexei in our organization (and Alexei morphing from a Ramon Santiago utility player into a ROY candidate), we probably overestimated his overall readiness for playing in the States. You have to remember that he experienced so much early success and hype in Cuba when he was 15-16-17, then he kind of hit a lull and perhaps developed some bad habits and frustration with being "stuck" in the Cuban system where seniority is so important. Ramirez was a seasoned veteran in terms of Cuban ball and already 26 and married with kids. Potential doesn't always translate into performance, nobody's a better example of that than GM's KW and Billy Beane, who both had all the baseball "tools" in the world. It could be that Viciedo merely becomes an average 1B (offensively/defensively), but if you're the White Sox, you roll the dice on six Viciedos instead of one Aroldis Chapman. It's kind of like picking stocks...the White Sox aren't ever in a position to make huge bets, they have to allocate/spread their risk around. Taking on both the Peavy and Rios contracts, those are two of the riskiest/gutsiest moves KW has ever made. If either of those backfire, they will be remembered by all, before names like Viciedo, Anderson Gomes and Luis Silverio hit our tongues. Whatever happens eventually with Mitchell and Thompson, that we're attempting to get more athletic and multi-tooled baseball players on the farm is a good sign, better than our money going to Dave Wilder's bar in Phoenix.

It will be interesting to see what happens. With AJ, Ramirez, Beckham and Rios up the middle, we're about as strong as we have ever been (assuming Rios hits) from an overall (offensive/defensive) standpoint. While it's entertaining to think of Figgins, Aroldis Chapman, Crawford, Gonzalez...even Nick Johnson, Damon/Matsui (the Yankees will keep only one) or Vladimir Guerrero seem like impossibilities. Although I do wonder if there's an outside (10%) chance that KW and Ozzie can convince Vald the Impaler to come here as the starting RFer (not DH)? Of course, having Guerrero, AJ, Teahen and possibly Pods all on the field at the same time is a BIT scary. If you're KW, you still have to be very worried about that infield defense...we keep saying we "think/hope/believe" it will be better...but that same finger-crossing applies to Quentin and Rios offensively, too. KW is an interesting position this offseason. He can wait on Pods and Thome, having both as fallback options...while he considers other players that might improve the team. You'd have to think Kotsay and Nix are strictly looked at as back-up players. In an ideal world, so would Mark Teahen, on a championship-caliber team. So we essentially have Tyler Flowers, Daniel Hudson and Paul Konerko to dangle around as trade-bait (although trading Flowers, with AJ one year away from leaving the team, seems a dubious move)...KW's style has usually been to trade young pitchers in the past, but he's obviously traded about 60-75% of our Top 10 prospects over the last decade, so he's never been afraid to pull the trigger. With the starting four we have right now, you have to believe KW and Ozzie are in a "go for it" mode. It's hard not to be optimistic, but it's hard not to spend a few nights worrying about Carrasco, Linebrink, Pena and the likes of Randy Williams comprising the back half of our pen...even Jenks is far from certain at this point, and his return trade value is pretty small, too. Difficult position for KW to be in with that pen...certainly there has to be 1-2 more additions from off the waiver wire/scrap heap. We tried that approach before with disastrous results.