caulfield12

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 17, 2009 -> 07:21 PM) It's very possible Webb is a FA this offseason. There's also reports his injury is much more serious than the organization is stating it is. So the question is will KW be willing to go into one of those incentives-based contracts like the Red Sox put together for Penny or Smoltz? David Wells is the last pitcher who had a somewhat similar contract in 2001. Mark Mulder is another guy in this category, although it looks like he might be done. Ironic, but far and away the best move the Indians made in the offseason was Carl Pavano, a move that almost everyone in baseball discounted. But 85% of SoxTalk would take Pavano as the fifth starter right now I bet.

QUOTE (beautox @ Jul 17, 2009 -> 07:14 PM) Absolutely, if we can get average production out of third base with a steady glove and move Bacon to 2B, along with a healthy Quentin we've got a very potent line up, esp if Jermaine can continue to keep it up. The idea of Teahen and Hermida in our line up excites me. We would have a balanced attack from both the left and right sides of the plate and the potential for breakouts(backs?) from them, neither one of them would be expected to carry the line up; simply produce for the rest of the season and going into 2010 while AJ, Paulie and Dye ride off into the sunset. With all the money we would have coming off the books after this year i would look to lock up core; much like the rays and tribe. The sox are going to have a very solid foundation to build off in nearly every aspect across the board and depth in the minors to supplement the major league roster in one fashion or another. My mouth salivates at the thought of this around the Diamond. DH L/R Thome/Dye C R Flowers 1B R Konerko 2B R Beckham SS R Ramirez 3B L Teahen LF L Hermida CF L Danks RF R Quentin Then you add in the potential "hitability" of Viciedo at 3B and you really have something...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...ng3&three=1 Haren has a 3.73 ERA away from home (around 3.30 in the desert) and has given up more hits than IP on the road over the 2006-2008 seasons. That's a little worrisome, just like we talked about with Peavy. That would translate to a 4.00-4.25 ERA in the American League. So I don't think Haren or Halladay are worth that kind of package...Halladay because we wouldn't be able to keep him for more than 1.25 years and his age, Haren because he's not really a proven ace in the AL. A Brandon Webb or going after Peavy coming off an injury are more KW's style, with the exception of the Freddy Garcia trade, when he was still pretty close to his prime but still declining a bit because of the abuse to his arm/shoulder.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 17, 2009 -> 05:20 PM) Average is a lot better than what we've gotten out of CF and perhaps 3b so far this season. Another problem with Teahen is that he's pretty much abysmal in RF/LF and at 2B. He's so-so at 3B, which MIGHT be better than Beckham, but not by much. So the question is whether the offensive upgrade of Teahen over the Getz/Nix platoon is worth it, and the cost of acquisition. And a lot depends on CQ. If we know he's not coming back, getting Teahen's LH bat in the line-up does make a lot more sense, because we're definitely at least one bat short still with Pods' injury history, Anderson/Wise and Getz/Nix (maybe still a tick below MLB average if you combine them, but they're not killing us, either).

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009906200344 Older article, but interesting take defending Ordonez's benching. Is Ordonez done? PEDS? At 35, I would like to see him try to make a comeback with the White Sox as a DH against lefties (I think we have to get a LH DH to replace Thome) and 4th outfielder, but that will never happen with KW and Ozzie running the team. But it's more Boras hate than anything personally I ever had against Magglio. He wasn't really a leader, but he certainly wasn't the WORST guy on the team or in the clubhouse, either. Not Herbert Perry or Jose Valentin, though.

QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Jul 17, 2009 -> 04:51 PM) I bet they don't trade Freddy Sanchez. They've already got enough bad press. And they are supposedly talking about extensions for he and Jack Wilson. I do like your idea to trade for Snell though. Another consideration with Snell is the fact that he's in the Top 20 in the most "pitcher abuse" points...so a pretty good candidate to break down and have an injury, on top of all the other issues (confidence/mechanical) Cooper would have to deal with.

Which has higher odds, Alex Rios putting up another 800+ OPS season at USCF in our new "reinvigorated" line-up in 2010/2011 or Jordan Danks? Obviously, Rios has more of a track record and he's still a young player, one of those "change of scenery" moves that have worked so often with pitchers, and SOMETIMES hitters in KW's tenure. Although we don't see nearly as many "Walk will fix him" (teal/green or not) comments, so that's a bit of a concern if you do swallow that. Getting the Jays and JP to give up a Thome like subsidy will cost the White Sox Danks/Poreda OR Richard OR Hudson and probably one more piece. It kind of goes against everything that's been said recently about attendance/economy/sponsorships going forward, but it's really depressing to think with all that money coming off the books that we couldn't even afford ONE contract like Alex Rios, then we're in for an interesting ride. Of course, the Rios trade idea has one flaw...it still doesn't address the leadoff hitter issue. Getz is more valuable to us (or Nix, for that matter) than he is in trade to another team. But I don't see Chone Figgins getting anything approaching $10 million per season over more than 3 years because of his age and injury history. Speed players always decline as they reach their early to mid 30's, especially in the post PED's era.

Flowers, Poreda, Viciedo, Danks and one of the young arms get it done That's suicide, Kevorkian style for KW. Phegley is far from a sure thing at this point, and Flowers is probably the most likely of all of our minor league hitters to be an impact bat SOMEWHERE in the line-up in 2010/2011. A Jordan Danks trade is questionable because of the presence of his brother, although KW would trade his own mom and son if it got him a Reyes/H. Ramirez type. In a heartbeat. Viciedo's value is down a little bit (or maybe a lot, depending on perspective...although scouts still seem to be happy to project his future positively rather than being discouraged by the results of just 3 1/2 months in America). Poreda or Richard, fine, but ALSO including Hudson and/or Carter??? No way. Seems like a recipe for disaster, like Phillips, Sizemore and Lee for Bartolo Colon. Of course, during KW's tenure, he has never traded away ONE player who had the individual impact later on of those three players (Brandon with the Reds after the Indians grew too impatient)...so it's not likely to be quite the disaster, and our farm system recently has been nothing like Montreal's, but you never do that trade in a million years. (Morse/Reed/Olivo and Wells/Fogg/Lowe were the closest but not nearly reaching the Nathan/Bonser/Liriano debacle). Dombrowski would be pretty crazy to trade 5.25 years of Porcello for 1.25 years of Halladay, as well. In this economy, a cheap 2 starter (they've already paid most of his money due, right?) is gold, just like Alexei Ramirez with his contract.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 17, 2009 -> 01:33 PM) Good thread. To be perfectly honest, I think the Tigers may eventually take a significant tumble and finish in 3rd place, and the main reason I believe this is they have abused their starting pitching. To be fair, they kind of have to do that in order to keep winning ballgames so I can't blame them, but it's going to catch up with them eventually, and in a big way. I actually think the Twins are going to end up winning the division due to them probably being the most predictable, consistent squad at the end of the day (consistently mediocre, but that might be enough in the AL Central), but obviously I hope I'm wrong. With Seay, Zumaya, Dolsi, Lyon, Rodney and Perry, they have perhaps a better or at least comparable bullpen with the White Sox in terms of ability/potential. Maybe our lefties (Richard/Poreda/Thornton) give us the advantage overall, but those five righties all have pretty nasty stuff, or had in in the not so distant past. You throw in Zach Miner as the long man, they're not bad. At any rate, I can understand with how well Jackson (all year) and Verlander (since the middle of May) have been going and with their middle relief struggles last year, but it's going to come back to bite them, surely.

http://www.rotoauthority.com/2009/07/pitch...use-points.html Not surprising to see Verlander and Edwin Jackson so high on the list, is it? You never see any Twins' pitchers either, which is why they tend to play better in the 2nd half of the season (and this year, the schedule for the Twinkies is more favorable). Another issue for the Tigers is trying to delicately avoid Magglio Ordonez's $18 million vesting option for 2010 based on plate appearances...and Carlos Guillen's balky shoulder. All things considered, unless Quentin comes back and is anywhere near a shadow of his former self or the White Sox acquire another starting pitcher without giving up Beckham/Ramirez/Floyd, then the Twins would look to have a 75% chance to win the division, especially if either Verlander or Jackson are injured...not to mention they really need to be careful with PORCELLO as well, so those are 3 pitchers to watch closely/carefully. The Tigers, reportedly, have nixed trading Porcello/Perry for Halladay.

QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 01:11 PM) im doing this from a phone and didnt really wanna quote that so disregard that. anyway im not sure if this point has been brought up but if it takes a ram and prospects to get halladay i do that trade in a second for a multitude of reasons. one your.e getting one of the best pitchers in baseball to go on top of one of the best rotations in baseball and it would, in my opinion make our rotation the best hands down. 2. when you trade a ram i think that makes the defense a lot better because you can slide becks to his natural position where he should be a lot better than he is at third and should be an upgrade over lexi. 3. yes lexi has the ability to carry this team offensively but i believe and im sure many of you agree that becks can be just as good as if not better than lexi offensively so your.e not losing much there. 4. the moving of becks to short makes d there better as it does with 3rd base because you get becks out of there and you can plug nix in over there who is a wizard on d. 5. nix has the ability to put up the kind of power numbers lexi did last year and that would be coming out of the bottom of the order, if getz starts hitting like pods him and nix would be a nice lil 8 9 in this lineup. so in conclusion to wrap this all up this trade gives us the best rotation to go along with the bullpen that very well could be the best and this trade also puts a better d out there behind that staff. if it can be done you do it in a second. lexi, dotel, richard, maybe a prospect for roy make it happen 1) How do you know that Beckham will actually be better than Alexei at SS? Based on the theory he can't be any worse than at 3B? Yes, it's his natural position, but almost every scouting report had him moving to 2B when he was drafted for a reason. What if he's worse, much worse than Alexei? Then you have to play Nix there everyday. 2) Nix isn't a very good hitter at all against RHP...and he's only a plus offensively at 2B/SS, not a corner infielder by any stretch of the imagination. Let's not forget Colorado gave up on him after 8 years because he couldn't hit well enough at 2B in the NL, yet we expect he could somehow be a starting corner infielder in the AL the following season?

I know when my wife came from Russia and was being processed for a K-3 visa, the biggest hold-up was at the Department of State, with the database checking of names against the "terrorism watchlist" and then cross-checking. Her app was stuck there 2-3 months at least.

QUOTE (103 mph screwball @ Jul 15, 2009 -> 07:49 AM) Welcome to Soxtalk! I curious about Freddie as well. Alexei's contract is reasonable, but I do think it is Kenny's MO to go after the big fish, especially a cy young quality starting pitcher. Alisay Ramirez >>>>> Miguel Olivo/Jeremy Reed Second, Halladay and his agent would NEVER agree to an extension with the White Sox, so it's pretty much a moot point.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 14, 2009 -> 05:22 PM) Teahen's body just looks weird. It doesn't look proportional. Like his legs are skinny and his upper body is huge. He almost looks like Clayton Richard. Coming out of Oakland and all, I don't think PEDs would be out of the question for him. To me, Teahen is just a better hitting version of Ryan Sweeney without quite as much speed (basically a doubles/gap hitter with occasional power) who had a couple of half-seasons that made you think he might be a consistent 800-850 type OPS guy. But not enough pop for the outfield or 3B and lacking the defensive prowess for 2B or the footwork...not quite the same type of athlete as Shoemaker with the Cards.

Well, according to Cooper, Aardsma and Sisco refused to work with him and the organization on their offspeed stuff...so they basically cut them loose. We tried MANY times with MacDougal, maybe he just needed a change of scenery and to pitch in a low-stress environment like Kip Wells did, or similar to KC, without any scrutiny by the media.

Teahen's one of the nicest players on the Royals...not sure why anyone would want to heckle him or someone like Mike Sweeney.

Saving the money by getting a subsidy from the D-Backs for Vazquez and getting them to take on Vizcaino's contract cost us Chris Young, so a similar situation would be in play here. We would have to give up Ramirez, who is AT LEAST the equivalent of Chris Young....for starters. There's no way we could get away from giving up Flowers/Viciedo/Jordan Danks/Beckham for Halladay unless we gave them Poreda, Richard and Hudson along with Ramirez and then maybe Shelby and ONE other piece like Anderson/Nix/Fields. It's giving up Beckham and/or Ramirez that I'm sure is where KW is blinking on this deal. He knows those three pitchers and what they are projected to do by our staff, whether they have the ability to make it as a starter, etc. But we have no replacement for Ramirez or Beckham's impact on our middle infield, nor a sure-fire 3B for the long-term unless Viciedo really turns things around defensively. The jury's definitely still out on that happening.

An injury-prone Scott Rolen at $11.5 million in his declining thirties is almost never the kind of investment that KW makes...there is really no example of a player coming in like that during his tenure, position player. We didn't want to pay Joe Crede any more than half that and a struggling team (attendance-wise) will commit to a player who has at least a 50% chance of being untradeable or a sunk cost next season, decreasing our flexibility to add some much cheaper parts in the offseason. If we could get, for example Abreu and Orlando Hudson for the same price as ONE injury-prone, Scott Rolen and not have to give up any talent to do so going into 2010, wouldn't that make a lot more sense? And there's no way we can guarantee to Halladay a competitive team and upper-tier payroll in the future like about 8-10 other teams in baseball can do with more credibility in their boast.

There was a "toolsy" CFer (think his last name was Perez) that was talked about being signed (at the time) for $1-2 million per season, but I think he's in the same situation as Marti (who came later) and is currently being held up by immigration issues. He was one of the two other players the Dominican tryout with Viciedo. Cubano didn't seem to expect a whole lot out of him...as much as he talks about the 1B and the LHP (Arguelles?).

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 13, 2009 -> 07:13 PM) Leadership qualities? How do you know? Whens the last time you were in the locker room? You are doing nothing but making vague generalizations to cut him down because you cannot come up with anything concrete to say he's not a good player. He's "had plays", come on, 1 or 2 plays depicts the type of player a guy is? Check out other rookie SS's in the league that are playing their FIRST season of pro ball at the position and tell me who is better than Alexei. You will have to go down to A ball stats for some of the guys. And dont come back with he played SS in Cuba, because he really didnt. I call complete bulls***. There are HOF hitters that couldnt do anything with certain pitches, they just knew how to foul them off, or eliminate that part of the plate. Alexei can foul off a breaking ball inside all night which sets up a pitcher to make a mistake, because he's a good hitter that adjusts well. Its pretty clear you are very biased against Alexei, but I would think you could come up with something better than generalities and things you cant prove like leadership. Jermaine Dye and Mark Buehrle might be our most consistent "leaders," in terms of their day to day personalities. Thome is what he is, and so is Konerko. Then there's AJ and Jenks. Quentin hasn't really stepped into that role yet (nor do we need it from him until 2010/11/12), so firing darts at Alexei over this is kind of nitpicking to me. It's not like we are expecting so much leadership out of Danks and Floyd, too...but, then again, isn't winning Game 163 another form of leadership more than acting like Nick Swisher or Javy Vazquez and never taking responsibility for your own shortcomings or even seeming concerned about them? All grindery players like Getz are leaders.....I hate that idea too. Finally, Ramirezhas the fastest hands on the team and is the best at making adjustments in an at-bat, looking horrible on one pitch and then managing to get a hit when down in the count. He's only what, 27 or 28 years old? He's in the prime of his baseball career. After struggling mightily the first two years and then making corrections/adjustments, we now think we've found a massive flaw or hole in his approach that other scouts and managers are not picking up on? Really?

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 13, 2009 -> 07:00 PM) He's having another great offensive year, you don't see me denying that. I don't think he'll consistently be a good offensive player in the future through. His approach leaves a big weakness to breaking balls inside and he just hasn't shown me that he's a smart hitter. And he is no SS. He definitely shy's away from contact on DP's. He's had plays where he dropped the feed because it was obvious he wanted to get out of the way, he's had plays when he did 360 spins to get out of the way, etc. Plus, he doesn't have any leadership qualities you want in a SS. He's a 2B or OF. Hitting grand slams in clutch situations also demonstrates leadership abilities. Ranging all over the outfield and down the foul lines like nobody we've had since Durham on the right side show he's an aggressive defender who believes every ball is his until he's called off. We didn't see that from the likes of Cabrera and Royce Clayton in the past. Ramirez has a much better arm than Beckham...and a couple of ticks better than Nix. I think it's way too early that Beckham is the next Derek Jeter and can be the captain of the team because he exudes so much confidence and is borderline cocky. Look at our own captain, Konerko, who is very moody and gets down on himself mentally more than any player on the team, with the possible exception of Carlos Quentin. Is Quentin a leader? Cabrera was SUPPOSED to be a leader, but he left the clubhouse within five minutes of the end of every game and was almost never available to the media like AJ/Thome/Konerko/Dye/Buehrle/Jenks. Continue to be concerned that we'll have even MORE defensive problems with Beckham at SS than Ramirez. Nothing will convince me otherwise, until Beckham can have a season of less than 20-25 errors at that position with the White Sox...and nothing Ozzie has said would indicate that's in their long-range thinking, not at this point. Ramirez isn't on a pace for Jose Valentin error totals, more like 18-22 in a season, which isn't a HUGE amount for a shorstop by any stretch of the imagination. Beckham might make that many in less than half a season.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 13, 2009 -> 07:12 PM) I was Alexei's biggest fan, but the more I see him play, the more I think he'll never come close to reaching his potential. He shy's away from contact at 2B for DP's, has no range to his right (at least at SS), isn't very bright, and I really dislike his approach at bat. He's gonna be a decent player for a while, but a very frustrating one due to his lack of consistency/concentration/baseball IQ. I got no problem trading him while his value is still very high. And you're willing to end up with Jayson Nix playing SS everyday if Beckham can't handle SS at the major league level and has to be moved to 2B? Right now, we have a position of strength with our middle infielders (including Fields), but there's no certainty Gordon can play short, whereas at least we have more legitimate options for 2B and 3B that can be tried. If other teams see Beckham can't handle SS, the price tag for replacing that position with another impact-level player will be very high indeed, unless we get another Uribe/Eckstein/Everett/Wilson/Santiago/Berroa type of "filler" SS not in the long-term plans. I'm not going to condemn Beckham's play at 3B and extrapolate it around the diamond or point to other players like Nix and Uribe that seem to be able to move all over the field without any negative impact defensively, but some of the mistakes at 3B in terms of judgement make you wonder how he'll do at SS when he'll have 50% more plays to make on an everyday basis. Finally, there's almost NO way that Halladay would lock himself into a long-term contract extension right now in the middle of this season with the White Sox, when every player/agent is going to wait this economic crisis out and see what will happen over the next 2 years, with the economic climate for huge contracts perhaps returning once again. Why would Halladay want to be "stuck" with the White Sox if we fail to make the playoffs in 2009 and then end up going with a $65-80 million budget in 2010 with youth being the centerpiece, but rebuilding "on the fly" the context? Not only that, but the Garcia extension was secured partially because of Ozzie's connection to him, at least that seems fairly likely. We have no "in" with Halladay that's comparable.

Quentin's health and return is the biggest factor in whether we make a move or not. If he can come back and contribute, the place to make a short-term move is on a 3B finishing out his contract this year...and it would be a very tough decision to bench Getz/Nix with the way they've been playing 2B and move Gordon to yet another position (3rd) this season, and at the major league level. Probably, the calculation in KW's brain is not to make that move, unless it's something significantly better than a Rolen/Wigginton/Herbert Perry type of player over there...and trading for an impact 3B with a longer-term deal makes no sense with Fields and Viciedo around, unless Dayan is definitely being targeted for a corner OF spot, DH or 1B. Best case scenario, Quentin is healthy and then you have to look at insurance for Pods in CF/leadoff (it seems 50/50 he will break down again, based on his past injury history), 3B/2B and the fifth starter's spot. With a healthy Quentin, going out and packaging 2nd/3rd tier prospects for a Garland type (instead of starting Richard/Poreda/Carrasco) or any of our AAA/AA pitchers would be the correct move...where 2010-2012 wouldn't be impacted and we would be in an improved position to win the division this year as well. I think trading Ramirez and being forced to go with Beckham at SS is a huge risk, because you're trading our most favorable contract in these economic times and you have absolutely ZERO insurance at that position if Beckham can't handle the position, unless you want to see Jayson Nix as the everyday SS, and he has lots of struggles offensively against RHP. Trading Ramirez (for a big-name pitcher) leaves you with Beckham at SS, Getz/Nix at 2B and no clear 3B unless you count Fields again as part of the future of this organization, and it's hard to say that about either Fields or Anderson at this point...although things could change yet again in the 2nd half of the season, especially if Pods were to break down again.

He reminds me more of Brien Taylor...

Teahen=Joe Randa Lite with more versatility but less RBI punch