caulfield12

I guess I looked at the question in terms of players who were actually still active. Of course, Frank Thomas (in his 90's prime) or Shoeless Joe Jackson would be the picks then, and I've love to watched Fox and Aparicio play together in their primes, too.

Sweeney, because we could get away with his playing CF (especially with Pierre and healthy Quentin on both sides), he's very affordable and it would have saved the questionable Rios acquisition. Using the Rios money, we wouldn't be having a discussion about the affordability of Damon, we could use the "surplus" to improve the bullpen and/or provide more depth to the back end of the rotation (although Hudson's a great alternative). For the minor leaguers, you have to go w/ C. Carter. Sweeney/Damon/RH bullpen help OR fifth starter (like a Maya type) >>> Alex Rios/Kotsay/Jones

QUOTE (knightni @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 05:00 PM) They have affiliates in Burlington and Cedar Rapids. I grew up in the Quad Cities and the 670 signal was the one I listened to. The local affiliates mentioned didn't come in very well...I think there was one in Geneseo as well, but I always preferred the mother station. And yes, AM1000 doesn't come in very well at all there. Spotty would be stretching it as a description.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 02:10 PM) Full-time DH's who put up strong numbers do not need to be able to play the field. Part-time DH's who put up questionable numbers and cannot play the field are literally not worth a league-minimum contract (maaaaybe as PH's in the NL) in my opinion. The roster spot is worth more dollars than the player at that point. Especially with us missing an infield-backup. Let's just see what numbers Thome puts up in 300-375 at-bats with the Twins this year and then we compare his "value" with what we get out of Kotsay or Jones on their deals.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 02:04 PM) it is semantics because what is the difference if he makes the team better in July or if he makes the team better in November. The only answer is the time frame. Those moves make the team better. KW is not getting a free pass on where the team is still weak. Hitting. He should get credit for improving the team's pitching and defense. if you still want to talk timeframes he still improved the team's pitching in the offseason with Putz and improved the bench and defense with Jones, and Vizquel. Hitting is still the team's weakness. With the budget the sox have it is near impossible to have an outstanding team in all three areas of pitching, defense and hitting. KW chose to go with a very good pitching staff, an average but improved defense and the weakness in the area of hitting. If I had to choose which order to spend the money i would do the same. Since the sox knew they were going to be weakest in hitting they are going with a "create a run" theory on offense instead of power. Will it work? I have no idea and it is a weakness. But given the choice I personally would focus on pitching as well. There's a BIG if if if in your equation. Putz. Because I'm sure not very many people feel comfortable right now with Pena, Linebrink and there's a pretty high amount of trepidation about Jenks as well. Williams? The long man. We have the POTENTIAL to be a great bullpen but more likely we'll be average. Second, it would have been impossible NOT to improve the defense, no matter what moves were made. I'm not sure that we can determine what we have with Jones in terms of his defense until Spring Training comes around and we see what his playing condition is...

http://baseball.about.com/od/newsrumors/a/09teamsalaries.htm We went from 6th in 2008 down to 12th in payroll in 2009. The White Sox public relations and marketing efforts were basically abysmal or non-existent in the 80's and 90's. The main marketing tool was the new stadium, and we know how well that turned out (especially the immediate reaction and comparisons to Camden Yards, not positive ones). I don't see how you can argue that we can't stay in the top 10 in revenue when we were 8th in 2008, three years removed from the World Series and following a disastrous 2007 season. It's simply a matter of producing a winning and entertaining product...if we're going to consistently be outspent by the Twins and the Tigers from here on out, that means we have to rely on either trades or our farm system. KW has been great with the first part of that equation, below average with the second facet of running a lower-payroll organization. YES, we did win the World Series in 2005 with a $65 million dollar payroll, but going back down to $75-80 million isn't going to cut it. If he wanted to do that, he never should have acquired Peavy and ESPECIALLY Rios anyway.

http://www.bizofbaseball.com/ForbesValuations.htm#2009 This is the most recent. In total revenues, the White Sox were tied for 8th with the Giants at $196 million. The franchise was the 10th highest valued at $450 million. I stand by my point that we have no reason (especially with the advantage of WGN) NOT to be between 8-12 in payroll every season. Second, the fans really supported the team in 2006 (and 2008 was pretty good) when we had one of our largest payrolls. However, as expected, the attendance has been going down every season for two reasons, the fact that we're now five years removed from the positive ancillary effects of winning the World Series AND the disappointing 2007/2009 seasons, not to mention the end of 2006.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 12:30 PM) That's an interesting straw man argument, but it's clearly not what I said. You would guess, but you don't really know. I'm not sure that I believe that the Sox are even #8-10 in the league in revenue, as they're not the only franchise that has raised ticket prices in recent years. Were their books audited recently? That would be the only way to truly know. To me, it seemed like you were saying that it was logical for KW to keep the payroll constrained if our attendance was in the bottom 50%. In other words, if you look at attendance in isolation, then it should be in line with your payroll, more or less? True/false? This was from before the 2008 season, after we hiked prices coming off the playoff appearance. The Red Sox had been first for many years but now it has flipped with the Yankees AVERAGE TICKET PRICES The Chicago Cubs, 100 years removed from their last World Series title, are second at $42.49, up 23.9 percent. The Yankees, in their final season at Yankee Stadium, have the third-highest average ticket at $36.58, up a big league high 26.1 percent. The Yankees' real average is much higher. Jon Greenberg, TMR's executive editor, said the team did not provide data and that he did not include the price of premium seating -- which covers a large percentage of New York's tickets. Yankees' box seats near the infield had a list price of $250 this year. The Mets, in their final season at Shea Stadium, have the fourth-highest average at $34.05, an increase of 20.5 percent. The Chicago White Sox are fifth at $30.28, up 5.2 percent. Twelve teams raised their averages more than 10 percent, including six with average hikes of more than 20 percent. I don't subscribe to teammarketing.com, or I could get the "Fan Cost Index," which from what I understand would also put the White Sox in that #5-8 spot as well. Then you have to figure in the broadcasting/media rights, there's no reason we shouldn't have a Top 8-12 payroll every year.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 10:37 AM) It's also quite possible that Jones gets DFA'd at some point during the season. If he's not producing or isn't healthy, dumping him would free up a roster spot. Over the past 6 months, Kenny has added Peavy, Rios, Pierre, Putz, Teahen, Jones, and Vizquel. I would've preferred Orlando Hudson over Teahen/Vziquel, but it's difficult for me to find much fault with the rest of those additions. Their payroll is currently just under $100M and they're in the lower half of MLB in attendance, so I'm not sure what else you want him to do. That's not quite accurate to say the fans aren't supporting the team. Attendance isn't as important as total revenue generated, and that was around #8-10 in the majors (because of our higher ticket prices/parking/concessions and media rights). In fact, if you look at total revenue generated, I would guess we're even closer to #1 in that category as we are to having the biggest payroll in baseball.

QUOTE (everafan @ Feb 15, 2010 -> 12:24 PM) They aren't a punch and judy team anymore - they will hit for sure. Pitching TBD. http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_leagu...?urn=mlb,219770 This. Be fully ready to be annoyed, it's kind of clever, but seeing it over and over again, I guess it's not unlike hearing the fireworks at USCF go off...but certainly a sure sign that their team has become the Chicago White Sox and we're now the Twins.

If $5-7 million was mere chump change for the Tigers, who are awash (still) in bad contracts, they would have spent a heckuva lot more money on a quality SS than Adam Everett. Even though that turned out to be a good deal overall, normally they'd have gone for someone with a marquee name if they weren't also watching their spending. The Ordonez/Guillen contracts really hamper them, and Cabrera's not cheap, either.

We could survive without Teahen playing....Nix could do a reasonable approximation, and I don't see many counting on him (Teahen) having more than a 750 OPS in most projections. It's living without Beckham and/or Ramirez over the course of the season that would be much more difficult to make up offensively.

I hope that nickname has better results than Jose Ponce DeLeon....

there's a good picture of it on the home page of kcstar.com, but it seems like nobody was killed

QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 15, 2010 -> 12:48 AM) you literally just played a word-association game with every sox player in history. hey i guess if you've got to kill a couple hours... No, not really. I grew up in the late 70's and 80's, and many of those players had Chris Berman/ESPN nicknames. Didn't take too long to find most of them on the Internet...and those teams from the 70's/80's kind of are forgotten around here because most of the posters are probably 18-26, if I had to guess. It was kind of fun to look at all the old names and try to remember them all. I used to have Strat-O-Matic for the 1980 season, haha. Jose El Gran Titan de Bronze Contreras Alexei Cuban Missile Ramirez Dayan The Cuban Tank Viciedo

Richard 280ZX Dotson Floyd Up and Down the Bannister Warren The Deacon Newson Shawn Lil Abner Ron Karkovice Squad Norberto Paco Martin (Cutting and Slashing) Greg The Little Bulldog Hibbard Scott Rads Radinsky Bobby Thigpen (Thiggy...not so original) Steve Alto Sax Cory Snyder Sucks (not his nickname, just something you heard everytime he was batting) Vance Martial/Common Law Jim Parque Floor Juan Real Agosto Billy Almon Joy or Toasted Almon Jim Hey Abbott Roberto Remember the Alomar Britt Third Degree Burns Pat South of the Borders Harold Growing Baines George Taco Bell Daryl Please Come to Boston Bobby Bad to the Bonilla Esteban Bats in the Beltre Ross I Never Promised You a Baumgarten Will Bungee Cordero Joey Alba Cora Mike Cameron Swayze Julio Can You See Cruz (well, really that's for Jose) Royce A Roni Clayton Gene Lamont Cranston Scott Fletcher Christian Tom Flash Gordon Tim Hulett Packard Bo Diddley Jackson LaMarr Where Does It Hoyt John I Am Not A Kruk Ron Ma and Pa Kittle Chet Bitter Lemon Dennis Fluorescent Lamp Steve Psycho Lyons Juan Bubbling Calderon Rudy Mother in Law Mike Car 54 Lavalliere (aka Spanky) Dave Vodka Martinez Captain Kirk McCaskill Lyle Teenage Mouton Ninja Turtles Antonio Osuna or Later Reid Buffalo Nichols Don Whiter Shade of Pall (or Pall Mall) Tony Jala Pena Melido Shuffle Perez Tim Purple Raines Gary Redus a Bedtime Story Jerry Rolls Reuss Joel Mule Skinner Tom Leave It To Seaver Kevin Spinal Tapani Steve Rainbow Trout Jim Home Thweet Thome Jim Thome Can You Hear Me? Juan Game Winning Uribe Robin Ventura Highway Gary Hospital Ward

And Polanco. And Rodney. And Brandon Lyon. That they are left with Ordonez and Guillen (and their huge salaries) when they should have been playing Granderson, Thomas and Raburn this year 90-95% of the time was really just financial mismanagement....specifically, the Sheffield, Bonderman, Willis and Robertson contracts. Although Renteria was almost as bad.

The dirty ceiling was another factor... I can't count on two hands the number of "lost balls" in the lights that ended up going against the opposition in that place, especially the White Sox. Then there's the short CF fence that was seemingly designed for Torii Hunter to rob every single ball under 10'5" coming down...the one against Carlos Lee still rankles me. Enigmatic fans? I wasn't sure if this was referring to the home crowd or opening up the "jets" when the Twins were hitting and/or reversing the flow when the opposition was at bat. What were those things they used to give away? Homer Hankies? Whatever it was, with 50,000+ waving those towels and making tons of noise...well you only need 1987 and 1991 to see the difference it made...or watch the implosion of Bobby Jenks in late 2008 in the final game of a crucial series up there.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Feb 14, 2010 -> 07:08 PM) I remember a Pat Cline who was supposedly going to be Johnny Bench II See Kevin Orie, Bobby Hill, Gary Scott, Jerome Walton, Dwight Smith, Shawon Dunston, Rich Hill, Angel Guzman, etc. Some of those guys turned out to be "decent" major leaguers like Dunston, but nothing close to their hype. As for Viciedo, we'd all rather see him at 3B because of his arm strength, but if his range/mobility are lacking, he has to be moved to 1B/DH or corner outfield. We've already invested the signing bonus into him, so let's just be patient and wait things out instead of jumping off the bandwagon. Alexei Ramirez was 26 and a "seasoned" veteran when he came to us, those comparisons of Viciedo making an instant impact (he got more money than Ramirez, who basically was a ROY type player) because they were both Cuban (not to mention our success with Contreras in 05/06) led us to see this signing with rose-colored glasses. Many of us were guilty of thinking he could make an impact as early as 2009, while others were being a lot more realistic. And the expectations for Ramirez when he came to us were very low, kind of a super-sub/utility guy in the mold of Ramon Santiago or Jose Oquendo with a "plus" arm but reed-like physique who would struggle to hold down the last spot on the roster or be in AAA. By the way, Keith Law is an a s s. I'm going to get tired of reading that we have the worst farm system in baseball when it's the opinion of ONE writer. I think that 18-24 is a lot more indicative of the actual level of talent in our system. The only difference from this year to last year is Gordon Beckham being removed from the list. That doesn't account for falling 10 spots when we had a very solid draft last year. Mitchell and Flowers, theoretically, have the ability to be All-Stars at their positions. Hudson is seen by many as one of the top 25-40 prospects in baseball, while some don't even rank him in the Top 100. Then you have Viciedo and Jordan Danks, both of those guys have God-given natural ability that can't be coached or taught. Neither of them may make a HUGE impact, but you can't begin to compare the state of our minor league system with 2-3 years ago when it was Josh Fields, Jerry Owens, Ehren Wasserman and Angel/Andy Gonzalez at the tops of the depth chart. And Trayce Thompson has as much upside (and downside) as any prospect in the low minors today. Sure there are doubts about Morel or Viciedo or CJ Retherford, but we're not close to being the worst farm system in baseball...no matter what Keith Law's personal vendetta against the Sox and/or KW happens to be.

QUOTE (joeynach @ Feb 13, 2010 -> 12:56 AM) Well if this is the case then the twins made a big mistake in tendering Young a contract, albeit for $3M+ too. Thats not something the twins are in the business of doing, eating $$. Sidney Ponson Ruben Sierra Juan Castro Ramon Ortiz Tony Batista Adam Everett Mike Lamb Craig Monroe RonDL White Livan Hernandez Phil Nevin All say hello...just joking, but actually, the Twins have made LOTS of stupid financial decisions on veterans in completing their rosters over the last decade. It's just that the five ALCD championships hide some of that unless you give their rosters a closer examination. And they've made a lot of good moves too. I've always argued their unearthing Kenny Rogers on the cheap (the White Sox passed) for the fifth starter's spot was the single biggest difference between those 2 teams in 2003. The margin of error was that thin with the White Sox pitching, despite the seasons of Loaiza and Colon.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 10, 2010 -> 12:19 PM) The logic I see in thinking that way is to look at the pitching staff. If MB departs after 2011 as he's discussed, D1 and Peavy a year later, that's a key block of 3 spots we might really struggle to fill. Floyd then is a FA 1 year after that. Even if Huddy is a success story, rebuilding the starting rotation is the hardest part, and aside from Hudson, right now we don't have obvious candidates to step in. But yea, when does KW ever not see things like that coming. But really, if MB packs his bags, that's the kind of thing that could literally close our window, with the effects he has on the whole pitching staff. Agreed. Buehrle to me has always been the main key to the franchise being competitive on a yearly basis, at least 50% because of his leadership qualities and the respect everyone for him has throughout the organization. Losing Buehrle, AJ and Konerko...Quentin and Beckham will have to become THE GUYS. Is that Megan Fox's thumb, lol?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 10, 2010 -> 12:13 PM) I don't understand why everyone thinks the Sox only ever have like a 1-2 year window. Sure, there will be other guys leaving, but there will be others coming in at the exact same time. People thought the window was closing after 2007 and the Sox would need a massive overhaul, and they won the division in 2008. With the way the Central is currently set up, no team is set up to consistently win the division for years and years, and the Sox are young enough with enough core talent at the right age that they have a window of about 5 years to compete with this core of players, and they will be plugging new guys into holes all the time. This is mostly based on the starting rotation staying intact, particularly Peavy and Buehrle, but also holding onto Floyd and Danks. (And also the questions surrounding how long Mark will be wearing a White Sox uniform in general.) If Flowers can make it at catcher, we're set for the near future with Beckham and Ramirez up the middle, Rios and Quentin...that's a pretty solid foundation. If Danks, Viciedo, Hudson and Mitchell (3 of those 4) can become regular contributors, along with Flowers, that would be amazing. Of course, we know that's unlikely to happen (see Kennyhatesprospects). The other thing is that 2008 was more of a transition year where nobody ever felt that team had enough to win it all, certainly not after Quentin went down. However, I'm sure if you look at the favorites for every year from 2000 until 2009 in the AL Central, only about 2 times have the "favorites" won. The closest to a "mini-dynasty" was the 2002-2004/06 Twins, and those teams were obviously lacking in offensive firepower. The more I think about the future of our franchise, the more it seems to revolve around Carlos Quentin being the 2008 version and Gordon Beckham being a legit All-Star player at 2B with an 850 OPS. If not, it's hard to see us getting very far.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 10, 2010 -> 12:05 PM) He still put up a H/9 of greater than 10, and since coming to the AL in 2005, he's put up a H/9 of 10.9 in 345 innings. Not all of that can be blamed on poor defense. He doesn't walk a lot of hitters and he strikes out a decent amount, but he doesn't strike out enough to compensate for his very hittable stuff. Looking at his PitchFx numbers, he looks very much like he's become a junk or finesse pitcher. If he does get great defense this year in Minnesota - and it's possible with Harris/Punto-Hardy-Hudson-Morneau from 3B-1B though his outfield defense won't be as good - he could put up good numbers, but he's going to have to put up a H/9 of less than 10. That is obviously dependent upon his defense, but that comes with the territory of a guy pitching to his defense. If he could put up Mark Buehrle-esque IP/H and BB/K ratios, then he'd be in very good shape with that offense.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 10, 2010 -> 11:55 AM) I don't disagree with most of the post. However, the team does not want a guy like Thome on the team. 1. He has shown to be a poor pinch hitter/part time player and the sox want to rotate the players, 2. They want to rotate the players to keep them fresh while still maintaining some consitency, so they weren't going to sign a DH only player. While the team plays 1/2 of the games at home, they are also going to play 1/2 of the games on the road. If you tailor your game too much to your own park you may do well at home but then have difficulty on the road. Take the Twins, they have had the best home field advantage in hte last decade. This has helped them to division tiltes but they have gotten nowhere in the playoffs. I believe (I'm sure someone will check this) that even when they won the Wrold Series titles in the 90's they never won a road game. I would rather go with the better overall team and to me that's pitching and defense, than to tailor it strictly to the ballpark. Ideally, you would blend both but under budget contraints I'm not sure that's possible. I'm not sure if this plan will work this year but I do think it's a good plan and a good way to continue building the team with guys like flowers, hudson and Morel on the way. Those players seem to fit the mold of this plan. Fair enough. Yeah, when they beat the Cardinals (I think it was them) and Braves in 1987 and 1991, it was 4-3 both times, with the home teams all holding serve. Flowers makes a lot of sense for USCF if he stays at catcher especially....if not, he fits into "others" fighting to replace Konerko at 1B or for at-bats at DH. Viciedo, hopefully, will figure in there was well by the beginning of 2011. I personally don't see Morel ever making it as a regular with the big league club, but then I've watched Chris Snopek and Greg Norton as starters over there. I'm more optimistic about Danks or Mitchell having breakthroughs than relying on Morel to play at close to maximum potential. The rumor was alway that KW felt offense was what helped to draw bigger crowds, and that he'd rather error on the side of building offensively-minded clubs both for the fanbase and to tailor it to the stadium itself...of course, die-hard Sox fans know that winning trumps everything else in terms of attendance. It's only fun if you have a Wisconsin, Butler or Iowa style of team (the baseball equivalent being us offensively unless Quentin returns to MVP form) if you actually win games with it, otherwise it really sucks for the fans. I think a lot of the frustration is with the idea of having only a two year window for this team...and the fact that we're starting out at a competitive disadvantage because of the DH situation, just as we limped out of the gate last year in CF, 3B and with Lillibridge getting many important at bats.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 10, 2010 -> 10:21 AM) I still don't see this situation as being that bad. If you look at the splits kotsay had a .290 BA , and a .347 obp against rhp last year and jones had a .367 obp against lhp with a poor ba last year. While these numbers aren't great they aren't awful in light of two reasons. 1. they spent their money and off season moves on peavy and rios, so the sox were going to down grade somewhere. I, personally would rather have peavy and rios than a thome type at dh. 2. the sox want a more athletic defensive oriented team and kotsay provides this with backing up 1B and jones provides this with backing up the of. I think ozzie and kw got tired of seeing dye konerko, thome and aj getting on base but not scoring because it took 3 hits to get them home. The replacements may not get on base as much but have a chance to score on fewer hits. The sox are counting on the lineup working as a team as opposed to the fanasy stats of thome only scoring if he hits the homerun. It will be quite the different team built along the same lines of boston, angels and seattle all of whom shed power for pitching and defense this year. Yes, but the Mariners are playing to the strengths of that ballpark, and they have exceptional defenders (they did lose Beltre) at multiple positions. We have one starter on our team that you know is going to be better than league average in Rios. You could include Pierre in LF, although that arm's obviously a weakness. Sure, Ramirez, Beckham and Quentin COULD theoretically be improvements at their respective positions, but you're going from abysmal to average, which is an improvement but I'm not sure we could call it a philosphical change like in Seattle. Of cousre, we don't have many reasons (besides what seems like the blip/anomaly on the back of his baseball card in 2009) to feel confident that Pierre's offensive game will translate well to USCF. Once again, if they were playing at PetCo or Safeco or similar parks that play big, their changes would make a lot more sense. But it's hard to argue they're not putting themselves behind the 8 ball with all the things that have to go right offensively, which would put us somewhere around 7th-10th in the AL if EVERYTHING breaks right. 2005 showed we can win a championship with dominant pitching, but the timely/situational hitting and bullpen were also outstanding that season... We can and should do better. We keep hearing that Pierre was pretty good in 2009 or that Rios was good 2-3 years ago or Andruw Jones or Mark Kotsay or Omar Vizquel was an impact player offensively 10 years ago, but it's not like Jim Thome was bad last year. There's absolutely no reason a Jones/Thome platoon wouldn't have worked, and they wouldn't have needed to give him more than $2-3 million. It's not like it would have broken the team payroll.