caulfield12

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 08:41 AM) Baserunning errors I don't want to comment on...but defensive errors in the OF, I still give 2006 the win there. Pods actually looked/seemed decent this year, even in CF....but he was close to atrocious in his earlier stint. I wonder what happened to cause him to improve in that area? Then you have Dye's "cement shoes" and horrible throwing mechanics in RF, and Mackowiak's adventures after replacing Anderson in CF.

There's something else lost in the productive outs conversation. The White Sox have traditionally been a three run homer and a cloud of dust type of offense in the last decade, particularly in 2000 and 2006. Ozzie obviously wants to change the mindset of the team, to find players who have the "small ball/fundamental" skills to manufacture runs when the big boppers are all struggling and most of the games are tight because of our #3 in all of MLB starting pitching staff. I think there was something about that 2005 team, despite their average or below average offensive output...not just defensively, but they really seemed to care for each other, pull for each other, Iguchi was one of the quiet, understated examples of that idea. It's hard to see it in the box scores or stats, but they will never measure the contributions of a player like him effectively. When you see the likes of Wise, Owens, Anderson, Lillibridge, Fields, Corky Miller, etc., flailing away and often having no understand of game situations or how to execute properly, it rubs off on the rest of the team...it seems most of the players were "selfish" last year in their approaches. Look at Quentin and Ramirez for example, very rarely did you see them change from at-bat to at-bat in terms of making adjustments. Ramirez was very good at that in 2008, so-so last year. Quentin almost never went to the opposite field...I think Thome might have done it more often that CQ last year. The one thing you can say is that across the board, this team has become more veteran/experienced off the bench and more athletic in the starting line-up and defensively. How that translates to wins and losses will be interesting. I think defensively, we're better at every position (or should be) with the possible exception of 3B and then you know what you're getting with AJ. I think how atrocious our defense was had a tremendously negative impact on the whole team over the course of the year. I can't remember a White Sox team making so many defensive and baserunning errors in my lifetime.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 07:36 AM) Even if they had traded for Peavy in June they still wouldn't have assumed more than about $4.4M or so since Peavy had already been paid for the first week in June and 2 months in April and May, which is pretty much the same figure they took on with Rios and Peavy. I know what Kenny said because some of his comments pissed me off, but he doesn't always tell the truth. The point is, the Sox didn't add much, so we can't assume they had much to add. We don't get to see their books, and we don't know what all they spend on, so it's very hard to speculate. It's much easier to argue about how they spend the money we do know they have, and in that department, I think they have had a god awful offseason. I agree on what you said about Wise opening in CF too, that was absolutely horrid, and trades could have been made for league minimum players with at least *some* potential even if they had not wanted to add salary. A bunch of people here were arguing for Josh Anderson for example. That wouldn't have worked out, but if they would have made at least *some* kind of actual effort to *not* run Dewayne Wise out there, that would have been much appreciated by yours truly. I'm sure we could have also come up with someone comparable to what the D-Rays took for Edwin Jackson. That move alone would have swung the division in our favor...although it seems to me at the time the majority were arguing against him, maybe 60/40 against, if I remember correctly. As far as adding those contracts, it was always 2010-12 that was more the concern than anything else...it's sort of a shame that we had been waiting so long to get rid of Thome's deal (at least at last year's prices, before it was quite reasonable), Konerko's deal, Contreras, MacDougal, etc. It's even crazier to think that with Cabrera still around, we might not even have seen Beckham last year. KW really lucked out there, as many posters pointed out, he won that game of chicken but he wasn't going to go to well twice with the likes of Dotel this time around. Nevertheless, we are still/again in financial constraints to an extent because of Jenks, Konerko, Linebrink and the Rios/Peavy deals, with Rios being far and away the riskiest move KW has ever made in terms of the impact on future budgeting and putting us in a difficult position like the Tigers got into (although they have 5-7 large/questionable contracts, not just a couple, with Willis/Sheffield/Guillen/Ordonez/Robertson/Bonderman coming to mind right away, off the top of my head). No doubt something was awry with our chemistry last year, and it's strange considering we shed Cabrera and Swisher, who quite a few argued were a large part of the problem. Of course, some will say the "presence/moxie" of Rowand in the past or Joe Crede is what made the difference....Carl Everett, for that matter. There was something missing last year, you could never quite put your finger on it. I'm sure after Konerko is gone that many will be saying we're missing a "leader" in the clubhouse to go along with the likes of Buerhle and AJ....Dye and Thome were always very "quiet" leaders, not very vocal. It's going to have to come from Ozzie and that starting pitching staff, because we have so many players like Quentin, Ramirez and Rios that are, at best, enigmatic. I'm wondering how soon Beckham will make his presence felt? Going into the season, he very well might be our best offensive player, especially if Quentin doesn't return to form.

QUOTE (1977 sox fan @ Dec 20, 2009 -> 05:15 AM) the reason i feel they might trade him is because he had a down year also he was hurt and he is a risk . also if you look the Rangers have a lot of OFS even in there system there deep especially left handed hitters . but i admit it would cost us something but he would still be cheaper then UPTON and much more cheaper then AGON . i admit i don't know his true value and if say Hudson and another prospect could do it or is Hudson to much to trade but i do think we can get him for a package of prospects . I'm 95% sure that KW would trade Hudson and other lower tier prospects (maybe even Jordan Danks) for Josh Hamilton. Eric Hinske is another bat to keep an eye on him, he's more of what I expect from the way things have been going...hopefully the sum of all the parts working together in 2010 will be much greater than how they look individually.

I hope he wasn't thinking that Thome would be too expensive based on his recently-completed contract from the Phillies. You don't want to pay him so little he feels insulted, but Thome is a trooper and something in the vicinity of $2.5-3.5 million should get it done. That's IF Ozzie and KW want to bring him back.

QUOTE (Ranger @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 01:38 AM) Well, yeah. All teams do that. It's pretty clear that the White Sox view their market as pretty inelastic...that there is a hardcore, dedicated season ticket base than will keep renewing, almost no matter what the circumstances. It's the 80/20 rule of sports marketing, that 80% of the revenue will be derived from the same 20% of the attendance, namely the season ticket buyers. Of course, in 2006, there was a big jump because of the World Series championship and what looked like an extended run of playoff appearances being set up, but almost all of the positive effects of winning a World Series are exhausted within five years...when things return to normal, which is essentially where we're at with the White Sox franchise. I'm not sure what it is about that marketplace in Chicago, but it is interesting the cost of living is a lot higher in Southern California (in general) and yet White Sox/Cubs ticket prices and parking, concessions, etc., are a higher across the board than costs for Dodgers or Angels games. To me, over the years, it seems like the best promotion has been the fireworks nights in terms of producing strong numbers...of course, those are almost always weekend games, too, which is another factor. Having worked for a minor league baseball team for two years, half-price nights during the week (especially before or after the summer hits and school lets out) and "half-priced beer/Thirsty Thursday/Two For Tuesday" promotions didn't have a significant impact on increasing overall revenues...and the more you discount the core price of a ticket, the more upset your season ticket holders and devalue the worth of a White Sox ticket, making it harder to encourage fans to pay legit prices when they can easily get tickets for free or discount. Now most major league teams don't discount beer...and they are also perhaps more conscious about alienating the fanbase by promoting nights where drunks take over the stadiums and scare the "family crowd" away. Perhaps they could try to discount parking during the week, that's another idea. One of the first things that most fans bring up about Comiskey is the high price of parking, for some reason, that specific issue sticks in the "craw" of lots of fans. The most successful promotions were always the give-away nights, where people paid regular ticket prices but got something "pretty decent" free for themselves or their kids...these kind of nights, which depend upon the sales and marketing department, are what really drive the revenues up for most teams who break even or lose money from Monday through Thursday is the majority of major league markets.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 08:34 PM) I was pretty clear on the economy reality of the situation that the Sox were preparing for. In fact, I have been borne out pretty correct in most of my predictions about how much teams that weren't as prudent would get into trouble, and you only have to look at our division to see that playing out now. The Sox were very smart and ahead of the bell-curve in being ready for the problems. So much so that they have been able to take advantage of the situation of other teams to get guys like Peavy and Rios. Also after that same argument a million times you do realize that in the world of absolutes a few different things could have happened with the Sox. The first and most obvious is that the Sox prepared for a worst case scenario that did not happen. Like always the Sox invest their extra cash back into the team. The other is that revenue ended up being higher than anticipated. Another is that at the request of Kenny Williams, Jerry went back to the board and got extra cash from the investors that hadn't been there before. Another is that they moved funds over from other areas to pay for payroll raises. None of those scenarios means the Sox were cheap, like you said a million times. Too bad we weren't able to step in and get Edwin Jackson, Granderson or Cabrera. Dombrowski would have been grilled/vilified, although I'm sure at least half of Detroit wouldn't mind dumping Cabrera after the curious events of September, 2009. However, at least DET and CLE seem to be weakened to the point where they will struggle mightly to contend, leaving the White Sox and the Twins on their new field as the two main contenders left standing.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 07:30 AM) The tag team mods. If I bother you guys so much with logic, just ban me. It's Christmas season, enjoy your life and family...it's better to just disappear for awhile and return when you feel like calmly discussing White Sox baseball again. Go see Avatar, or go shopping. Getting upset isn't worth it, trust me. Been there, done that. We all love the White Sox, everyone feels passionately about OUR team and their own beliefs, it's normal that we don't see eye to eye all the time with all posters...but you would miss this site. No matter where I am living or what I am doing in life, I always come back to White Sox baseball in the end, it's kind of like an addiction/religion that even seasons like 2007 and 2009 can't come close to extinguishing. Most of Generation X remembers what the late 70's and 80's were like at Old Comiskey Park. We survived for so long, and now we'll always have 2005 and that parade to remember, even if some families went a generation or two in their lifetimes without a Sox playoff appearance.

We're back to the same problem with Delgado, on multiple occasions he hasn't waived no trade clauses or has basically shown no desire to come here. As someone brought up earlier, I'm sure there is nothing contractual about standing for the playing of that song. It's one of these silly arguments, like candidates for political office have to wear American flag pins to prove they're patriotic. What would be interesting for me to see would be if an American baseball player playing winter ball or in the World Baseball Classic refused to stand for the Puerto Rican national anthem at a game in San Juan...would Delgado also be receptive to that? It's kind of like the "King's Anthem" which is played before movies here in Thailand...even if I am the only person in the theatre, I stand out of respect, even though he's not my king. If I remember correctly, wasn't there something going on with the bombing grounds in Puerto Rico for US planes? I can't remember if the specific event which precipitated Delgado's actions was the war in Iraq or something more specific to PR. In the end, I don't mind his actions, as long as he's consistent. Roberto Clemente is my favorite player of all-time and he was never afraid to throw himself into the middle of any argument or to speak his mind. In the end, it's what got him killed...as he boarded a dangerously-overloaded old plane just because he was so determined to ensure that earthquake relief supplies got to their intended recipients.

QUOTE (Voros @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 01:01 AM) Okay here's my theoretical 25 man roster (again I was asked): C - Pierzynski C - Erik Kratz (journeyman minor leaguer with a good glove and decent bat - league min) 1B - Konerko/Nick Johnson 2B - Getz/Nix platoon SS - Ramirez/Beckham 3B - Beckham/Ramirez LF - Quentin CF - Rick Ankiel/Rios (Ankiel at about a WAG of around $3 mil/yr) RF - Rios/Ankiel DH - Nick Johnson/Konerko (Johnson at about $6 mil/yr) IF - Nix/Getz IF - Mike McCoy (the Rockies waived him and the Jays claimed him before the White Sox turn, but you could have gotten him before then, league min) OF - Ryan Langerhans (non-tendered by the Mariners on the 12th and then re-signed a week later. Defensive specialist, league minimum or close to it) SP1 - Peavy SP2 - Danks SP3 - Buerhle SP4 - Floyd SP5 - Garcia/Hudson/Torres RP - Jenks RP - Thornton RP - Linebrink RP - Pena RP - Torres/Garcia (if Hudson's not starting I'd prefer him in AAA) RP - R.J. Swindle (minor league lefty killer currently on an NRI for the Rays, league min) RP - Chris Bootcheck or a guy like him (have a sort of open competition with guys like this in ST and see who looks the best. all league min) And I'm under the current amount spent. So if I see a reliever I really like for under $2 million, I can pounce. There's other guys you could go after like Andruw or Gabe Gross who would be useful additions to the team and wouldn't cost much. Freddy Dolsi wasn't a terrible pickup as he's a groundball specialist and they can be useful out of the pen, though I think he's a little hittable. I think this team is better than the current one and doesn't cost any more. I don't think it's a great team, but then that has a lot to do with a poor minor league system and some questionable existing long term big money contracts. The biggest risks (other than maybe Ankiel) are in spots where a flop doesn't really hurt you too bad and you can change courses pretty quickly. A guy like Swindle, despite his clear weaknesses, he throws strikes and lefties just don't seem to hit him at all and therefore should be more than adequate as a back of the pen platoon specialist. To me, little pickups like that are how you put together a bench: cheap with a little bit of potential should things break your way. Didn't we already do this coming into a prior year when we auditioned multiple left-handed relievers as well and traded the best of them in Javier Lopez to the Red Sox? It certainly was what happened coming into 2009. Kratz=Corky Miller, McCoy and Langerhans would represent the likes of Lillibridge/Anderson/Owens/Wise/Fields... Essentially, it's all "roster filler" and you can dress it up however you want to, the only big differences are Rick Ankiel and Nick Johnson. Now if you're KW, do I think it would have been better in retrospect to have spent the money on Ankiel/Johnson instead of claiming Rios? Undoubtedly...but he has to live with that decision. You're still left with a ton of question marks relying on Johnson and especially Ankiel....You're also glossing over the fact that Ozzie's comfort level as manager with veterans is considerably higher, instead of KW adding multiple question marks throughout the roster (as KW did heading into 09), at least he (Ozzie) feels more comfortable and knows exactly what he has with Pierre, Jones, Vizquel and Kotsay. Ozzie really really struggled managing that group (Miller/Lillibridge/Wise/Anderson/Wise/Fields/Nix) the first 2-3 months of the season. It's apparent KW wanted to address that issue as quickly as possible so it wouldn't recur in 2010. Was/is it building the roster backwards? We'll just have to wait and see. It's definitely a much different approach than he's taken in the past with setting up the roster. There's absolutely no reason that Bootcheck or Swindle (if you told me it was Greg Swindell in his prime I would have been more optimistic instead of feeling "swindled" like Dick Allen would going into the season with your roster) will do any better than the likes of Freddie Dolsi. KW has tried every approach in the book to the bullpen, from overspending on middle relievers and set-up guys to having open tryouts of other teams' castaways to taking fliers on Jenks and Thornton when many had already written them off. Still, it feels like our hope is to hang within hailing distance of Minnesota and then make another set of mid-season roster adjustments.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Dec 20, 2009 -> 12:36 PM) If Putz comes out electric, and Jenks continues his '09 performance...it will be frustrating to see how the business side will get in the way of them putting Putz in the right role. At least that will be the accusation if the trigger isnt pulled fast enough. I like getting Dolsi if for no other fact that it seems like it's been a few years now where we dont have a stable of possible, ready bullpen arms to go to. As long as Ehren Wasserman was a real possibility for our pen, I knew we didnt have viable relief help on the farm. Last year it seemed like everything viable was on the major league roster, as evidenced by Poreda being up out of necessity. Do you guys think the Sox......for trade value concerns... kind of 'managed' Poreda's ERA last year with the infrequent situations he was put in? If so, another reliever should have been up instead of him (if one was around). And also, will it happen again this year in a sense with Tyler Flowers or Hudson...? Of course, you really have to believe KW knew all along that Poreda was one of the most coveted pieces in our system, especially going into last year. Obviously there were concerns he would never become a starter all along...that he was essentially being marketed to teams around the league as part of a package to get something bigger/better in return. Thank god Clayton Richard became much more than just a LOOGY and pitched so well enough that he could be shipped off along with Poreda to get Peavy in return. If Flowers and Hudson brought back someone like A-Gonzalez, nobody would sweat it TOO much. We'd merely say, well, look how many of KW's prospect trades in the past have turned out busts? Phil Rogers doesn't even have Chris Young to hype anymore, all he can do is bring up Javier Vazquez or the non-return from Swisher (Viciedo-Marquez-Nunez-Betemit) so far. I guess there's always C. Carter and our former future Cliff Floyd from the LH side...because the Cunningham and Sweeney fan groups have quieted down quite a bit, too.

Well, it never would have happened because Dombrowski wouldn't have traded him to another ALCD rival anyway. Seems the ONLY time that happens is with relievers going from the Royals to the White Sox (names like Sisco, MacDougal, Carrasco, Sisco, H. Ramirez, David Riske, Sullivan, etc., come to mind)... On second thought, seems Riske ended up with Royals after Sox failed to offer him arbitration?

Well, if Dolsi COULD (Coop will fix him, trademark) develop a secondary pitch, he would be absolutely nasty, not unlike Rodney when he has the change-up/fastball combination going. Now we know that strategy DIDN'T work with the aforementioned list of pitchers like Aardsma, Sisco and Masset, not to mention Aaron Poreda and Matt Thornton. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he could get on a roll for at least half a season like Politte did in 2005. I would say (comparing this to the "condition" in which we acquired Cliffie) that I am/was more optimistic hearing about Dolsi coming in that the orginal Politte acquisition when it happened...maybe even more positive than I felt about Hermanson. As far as Jenks goes, he's never really had two legitimately-touted candidated (Putz and Thornton) vying for his job. MacDougal wasn't brought in for that function, neither was Octavio Dotel. There has/had never been more rumors about his being traded or being non-tendered. Contract incentives were placed in the Putz deal specifically as "Option B" to Jenks, AND because they didn't have to improve Thornton's "bargain" contract. MAYBE, just MAYBE, it will be the kick in the seat of the pants that he (BBBJ) really needs to get back on track. We know that he's been capable of really getting it into the upper 90's occasionally, but those adrenaline-pumping moments have been few and far between with the exception of the last two months of the 2008 season. You might take the bet that Jenks would have 30-35 saves (or more) going into this season with a Vegas sports book, but I'm not sure that I would. Still, as has been argued repeatedly, you can't afford to trade him for less than equal value or just cut him loose. The risk is too high that Putz would/will fail and that the bullpen would implode, with all the starting pitching in the world not being enough to carry the offense and shoddy pen.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 19, 2009 -> 08:16 PM) I always thought of Aardsma's career with the Sox unwinding after he threw 4 straight balls to a Twins hitter with the bases loaded in a tie game in the bottom of the 9th or 10th, giving them the game. That is the absolute last recollection I have of Aards in a Sox uniform. And I have thought, even since that point, as losing Aardsma as a mistake. Well, Aarsdma has definitely been something of an enigma his entire career, just like MacDougal. You never know, Dolsi has a pretty electric arm, and was considered untouchable just 2 years ago. So unpredictable what you're going to get with relievers, but I feel a LITTLE bit better having Pena and Dolsi, that ONE of them can have a breakout/comeback season. The only thing we feel confident in going into 2010 might be Linebrink being pretty good in the first half...because we still have no idea what we're going to get out of Jenks and Putz, and even Thornton has had his moments of occasional struggle with the Sox, usually when he gets behind in the count or becomes too predictable or loses command.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 19, 2009 -> 06:29 PM) That's because no one has ever actually said Cooper fixes everyone. The argument is dumb, because you are attributing things as fact, which aren't. And honestly, with the same three things that you repeat over and over and over again, I hardly ever respond anymore, because it is fully pointless. 1) I love Greg Walker. 2) JR and KW, boo, boo, boo!!!! White Sox are cheap. Actually, considering many posters (including myself) have been accused of being boring/predictable, I think it's nice that there a few who are always reliable and consistent in "spinning" most White Sox news in a certain way. It gives the site some balance...it would be tremendously boring if we were in agreement or had consensus the majority of the time. Reminds me of past debates over issues like Willy Taveras, Brian Anderson or Nix/Getz...or the now steadily recurring stats/OBP versus 'scouting/eyeballs' which was first highlighted by Moneyball/The Blind Side author Michael Lewis.... Reminds me a little of the Copenhagen Summit, maddening at times, but still the "big tent" is far better than the "censorship/my way or the highway/it's our board, so shut up" approach prevalent at other Sox sites.

Well, Cotts certainly did better when he was throwing harder out of the bullpen than as a starter. MacDougal has been incredibly inconsistent throughout his career, mostly because of strikezone command (or lack thereof). No matter what speed he pitches at (anywhere from 92-98), his pitches seemingly have a ton of movement, which is a large part of the problem. I think they simply told him in the end to aim at the center of the plate and forget about everything else they had tried to teach him...of course, pitching for the Nationals is a lot different than for the White Sox in terms of pressure. Same thing with Aardsma and Masset, to a lesser degree. Aardsma wasn't ready to be a closer for the White Sox (his failures, after pitching like Linebrink's April-June 08 or Cotts/Politte in 05) and his career really went downhill after giving up a walk-bomb to someone on the Tigers, I think it was Monroe or Thames, one of those guys. He was always reputed to have the lowest amount of confidence, and you saw that in the second half last year with the M's again as he was far from consistent. I think Maaset is probably the most interesting case. I'm not sure what happened...it seemed there was confusion about his role and what to do with him, but he was never close to 95-100 for most of his time with the Sox. Of course, we all know that even Joel Zumaya gets lit up at that speed when everyone knows what's coming. But if Nick really was throwing 3-5 MPH harder with the Reds, maybe it was simply that he decided it was better to go with power and give up a little command, because of his lack of movement. Contreras and Garland, to name just a couple, always seemed to have a lot more life and (dead ball effect) at lower speeds, although when Jose was it his best in 05/06, he was consistently at 95-96-97 with every FB, and the increase in velocity probably has something to do with the air/altitude/cold in Colorado. It's not like he did that well there, he was considering a Japanese League team the last I read about him.

Well, the White Sox clearly have a huge and clear advantage over the Twins in the pitching department for the first time since 2005. I do worry about giving Tyler Flowers a lot of AB's at DH, because the reason the White Sox have had so much trouble breaking in young players (until Beckham performed) is that you can't play rookies like Borchard/Anderson/Fields, etc., when they're not producing. They rode it out with Anderson in 2006 for half the season, but it became a focus point of the media eventually, despite how well the team was playing overall. It's kind of a double-edged sword. The White Sox are usually in the thick of the division race and can't afford to have many throw-away years like 2007 (look how well Owens/Fields/Wasserman produced, and what they've done since, or dare I mention Andy Gonzalez?)...so KW and Ozzie are more likely to trust veteran players than rookies. Look what happened with the likes of Erstad and Mackowiak playing over Anderson. Now, I think we can finally put to bed the Brian Anderson Conspiracy Theory at least 75%. As for Flowers, he seems to be the type of player who would need to get regular and consistent at-bats, same with someone like Jordan Danks (just throwing out his name, because of his swing mechanics). I just don't see Flowers making the team as the back-up catcher and part-time DH. I think the only way KW will use him is either as a full-time starter at catcher after AJ leaves or as part of a trade, keeping his value as high as possible in AAA before the bloom comes off the rose, as it usually does with Sox prospects. For another example, look how long it took for Rowand and Crede to win starting roles in Chicago...and KW kept trying to replace Rowand seemingly every season (especially after the motorbike accident) because he didn't fully trust him as a starter AND wanted to go cheap with Reed/A. Webster/Young/Anderson all in the pipeline behind Rowand.

I would guess we're right at the payroll limit set by JR or over it by now...meaning the only question of the offseason remaining is whether losing Bobby Jenks is worth gaining Vladimir Guerrero as our DH. Interesting question...we have our most solid bench since 2006 by far, assuming Andruw Jones isn't a starter. Although right now, Pierre, Kotsay and Andruw Jones would be getting quite a few AB's if Quentin is really going to be the full-time DH. The main questions left are quality RH relievers, Williams (I'm assuming KW will pick up a Ray King or Arthur Rhodes type to compete in ST, just throwing out some random names for LH relievers) and the on-going DH issue. I haven't been paying so much attention this offseason, but a lot of the contracts are more back-loaded, so there's not QUITE as much pressure on the payroll in 2010 as there might have been had Hahn and Company not been so prescient in setting things up well to best compete the next couple of years with that rotation in place. Finally, Vin Scully's a baseball announcer I admire about as much as any in the game, and he said when Pierre made a "mental" error one time last season that it was the first time it had happened in a Dodger uniform. In other words, he's a solid baseball player who doesn't make mistakes, the anti-Pods. Sure, we know he doesn't hit for power, he's got a horrible noodle arm and he's got a pretty low OBP, but look at what we started 2009 with on our roster. But he can definitely lay down a bunt, haha. Ozzie likes veterans more in general, and he's been close to Pierre since his Marlins days. If nothing else, we're accumulating former Dodgers' outfielders, unfortunately not Kemp, Ethier or Ramirez (well, that would never happen under KW and JR!) Pods, in the end, was just too much of an injury risk to sign for two seasons for about the same amount of money, and Pierre's a better overall defender.

QUOTE (joeynach @ Dec 14, 2009 -> 01:22 AM) Do you have any details or links with information on the deals with Accenture and Gillette? Sorry, I was just joking, in light of all the Tiger Woods controversy the last two weeks....thought they might be open to investing in White Sox baseball. Speaking of sponsors (and yes, this is off track but I don't want to start a new thread)...have we heard anything about the marketing department this off-season? "We picked the absolute worst time to have an exclusive bank deal and a significant deal with Buick Pontiac GMC. The Chicago budget for Buick Pontiac GMC dropped over $16 million, in Chicago alone. So we lost that deal in one way. Luckily, we’re in a multiyear deal with Chevy, so we’re seeing some of their other money. Our exclusive bank deal, five years ago when we did the deal, it was brilliant. All the stars were aligned. LaSalle Bank was in Chicago, it was deeply rooted in Chicago. It was a perfect match for our brand. But little did we know that five years later, we’d be in the situation that we’re in now [bank of America acquired LaSalle in 2007]. So we’ve lost Bank of America as a partner, and trying to find a new exclusive bank in this economy is not easy. We get it. Those two hits alone, and then to have Motorola in our backyard face the challenges they’re facing, have definitely hurt us." Brooks Boyer in April, 2009

Well, the other thing you have to consider is our dearth of Top 10 picks over the last twenty years or so. The last really significant "big-time" prospects before Beckham were probably Joe Borchard and Jon Rauch (I suppose you could include Kip Wells and Jon Garland in there somewhere too)...speaking of Borchard, flipping him for Matt Thornton has to go up on the all-time Top 5 KW moves list, too. Our system actually isn't even in the Bottom 10-12 teams in terms of producing major league players, it's simply that we haven't produced very many All-Stars of our own after the Magglio/C-Lee/Durham triumvirate, there's really only been Crede and Rowand since (for position players). We're good at producing Angel Andy Gonzalezes and Ehren Wasserman types to fill out the last three roster spots. Buehrle was perhaps the least likely of all those pitching prospects to make it in the 1998-2002 group. Ironic, that Buehrle and Josh Fogg, along with Chad Bradford, would end up having the biggest impact on the game...not Wells, Ginter, Rauch, Barcelo, Danny Wright, Aaron Myette, Jason Stumm, Rob Purvis, Brian West, etc (all of those "power arms" that KW was collecting at the time). It will be interesting to see if anything ever comes of the T. Thompson pick...we've gone through so many athletes trying to play baseball (Borchard, Josh Fields, Brian West, Brian Anderson, Chris Young) that Beckham stood out as a "pure" baseball player, so different from the typical White Sox draft pick. In some ways, Chris Getz also seemed to fit this mold as well, not the kind of player off the charts in the scouts' ratings but something akin to Bobby Hurley or Chris Corchiani, a "gym rat" who forced his way onto every team he played for.

This move seems a bit ill-advised. With all the money we've wasted on Toby Hall, Castro, Mike MacDougal, Linebrink and Contreras, you'd think we'd be more "penny wise." Now the odds are DJ won't repeat his 2008/09 success yet another season, but how can they know? I'm assuming they're penciling in Hudson into the same role, or Hynick, someone like that...assuming that Garcia is the fifth starter to open the season. So I guess I'll look at it purely from the perspective of bringing in younger talent with more upside, rather than a cost-savings. Maybe it will be both. While I'm not sure he was the MVP of the team, he was critically important in a way that casual baseball fans could never understand over a long, 162 game season...but especially in July/August of 08. You also never heard anything negative about him...being anything but a stable, veteran clubhouse presence and a solid teammate. Hopefully, KW can get that chemistry/mix mojo working again, it's been hard to find a consistent chemistry with all the personnel changes this team has made over the last five seasons. I would guess our roster turnover has been in the Top 10-15% of all MLB teams during that timespan. We'll just have to wait and see if we sign Guerrero/Matsui/Damon and/or get a new leadoff hitter on the backs of new deals signed by the market department with Gillette and Accenture.

I would think there's a team out there that would give Vladimir Guerrero at least $5 million guaranteed for 2010, it not a bit more. Heck, just for name recognition alone, having Guerrero and Andruw Jones on our team would probably pay for itself, especially Vladimir. He's still one of the most recognizable names in the game today...and the entertainment value of having The Impaler and The Cuban Missile on the same team, with their propensity for swinging at almost everything within range of home plate, would be a sight to see (or bemoan). I also picked Guerrero as the most likely name for us, over the likes of Matsui/Damon, Thome and others that have been bandied about. Also, HOPE Merkin is wrong about our bullpen (the names he listed from our minor league system don't impress very much), and I think he's overestimating a bit how quickly Jordan Danks and Jared Mitchell will be making significant contributions. Danks is very much a work in progress, a little like a Ryan Sweeney with perhaps more upside potential because of his athleticism and ability to play CF so well, but just as likely a candidate to go Brian Anderson on us at the major league level because of his swing. Worst-case, we go with ONE internal candidate for the bullpen and cover the other one through veteran signing "on the cheap" or the waiver wire. If Jenks is gone, that really could throw the entire bullpen situation into disarray, but if we could have Vladimir Guerrero and another reliever (maybe even Putz) instead of Jenks, I would go for it and cross my fingers if I were KW. I'd really be curious to see the physical condition of Jenks 2 month into the offseason.

Maybe it was more based on "expectation" and the numbers Beltre put up offensively before going to the M's. He had that one, huge breakout season and parlayed it into a big payday but never came close to duplicating those numbers....defensively, he's better than Crede, there's no question about that aspect of his game, his arm strength, etc. Sexson was the worst of all of those, although Washburn in close. On second thought, perhaps Silva! Vidro had some good years at least offensively. Johjima was more about the ownership group and their commitment to continue to "sell" to the Japanese market and make further inroads, but that was a reach. When you look at the advantage we SHOULD have over the other markets (Detroit is being forced to sell off Edwin Jackson and/or Granderson because they were spending beyond their means) in our division, it's comparable to the LA Angels situation. The only wildcards are whether the Twins can keep Mauer AND Morneau with their new stadium and whether the Indians will bounce back with a new manager.

I might be wrong...but I'm not sure how well-supported a early 90's to mid 2000's run (like the Braves had) would be supported in terms of attendance. The Braves only had one World Series title, and Braves fans really became bored with those teams falling short or not being built with all the components to win it all...maybe that's expecting too much, perhaps. It did take at least 8-10 years before the attendance really started to fall off, and I think a large part of that was due to the corporatization of the Braves, Ted Turner leaving day-to-day oversight and the fact that the really exciting teams and playoff appearances with that team happened in the early 90's through the mid to late 90's, then fans sort of lost interest and stopped coming in record numbers, and maybe the appeal of the new stadium (it's "okay") also started to wear off, too. Of course, any Sox fan would love to have that type of home-grown dynasty (Glavine, Smoltz by trade, Avery and then acquiring Maddux). My question would be how long White Sox fans would "pack the park" and pay rising prices if the White Sox continually flamed out in the first round of the playoffs, like more consistent franchises such as the Twins (and previously) the A's have done? Would there be diminishing returns with attendance until the White Sox won another World Series again? I think the closest example we can aim for is that of the Angels' sustained success, their fight under Moreno pull up almost even with the Dodgers in that market, consistent playoff appearances, that's setting the bar about as high as you can.

QUOTE (chisoxt @ Nov 27, 2009 -> 02:00 PM) I for one hope that KW will be kicked upstairs soon and Hahn assumes control of the team. Face it, 05 was great but it was fluke. Since that time, Kenny has used the approach of leveraging prospects for older veteran types who have bigger contracts. Eventually, in order to have repeated success at CONTENDING we have to eventually develop a strong farm system where we not only develop good players but maybe actually keep a few of them. With the decline of hormone and amphetamine use, baseball to a large extent is reverting back to old days when power wasn't as important as pure fundamental baseball skills like speed, defense, on-base %, etc.. Things worked out OK in the last few years when we had the gate and advertisers to support a larger payroll, but with some bad seasons recently and a poor economy, I do not see Kenny's strategy of acquiring older and more expensive players , whether through free agency or trading prospects, as being sustainable. Sure getting Jake Peavy was great and our rotation is shaping up to be awesome next year but what about the rest of the team? I see us leading the league in quality starts but finishing in third place. What about the other holes on the team? I know that as a fan, I am in the minority here, but I think that future success will hinge on a younger team developed from within. First of all, I think just because Hahn is very good with the business side of things, that's certainly no guarantee of success in the much more high-profile world and microscope of being an MLB GM. Look at what happened with Dan Evans in LA and how short his tenure was in that position...I would say at the time, there were many or perhaps even more who preferred him over KW. The reason KW has adopted his plans over the last decade are partly due to the traditional White Sox fan base (not supporting rebuilding or even .500 teams)...the competition with the Cubs for the media spotlight...the desire to "entertain" the fans with shows of offensive output/HR's...and his overall lack of patience and desire to "go for it" each and every year. Lots of GM's would be very hesitant to make the Rios move, but KW did it because he has the full faith and confidence of Reinsdorf. But I think 15-20 GM's would never dream of pulling the trigger for fear of that move haunting them in the future and bringing a premature end to their "honeymoon" period. The fact of the matter is that KW and Ozzie hate losing as much, if not more than, most White Sox fans (although some are arguing that Ozzie lost his fire and chip on his shoulder in 2005). That's all you can ask for. As another example, look at Bill Smith in Minnesota. He was a brilliant farm director but has been pretty abysmal as a GM, in terms of the moves that he has made. Now the major league teams have outperformed his GM performance (same thing happened with the Sox in 2008) for two years in a row, but I don't think any Twins fan would possibly argue he's been anything but a shadow of former GM Terry Ryan. Now just because Dan Evans and Bill Smith haven't worked so well...that doesn't mean HAHN will fail as well. But beware of the back-up QB momentum...90% of the time, you miss your first stringer when he's out, and the fans come to realize why he was the first-stringer in the beginning. I think the same will be said of KW and even Ozzie when they're gone and been replaced by others within the Sox organization. We will miss the KW swagger, his attitude reflected by his comments about the Tigers "being in a better position to compete with the Sox" after the Miguel Cabrera move....KW watched Dave Dombrowski (another former Sox front office guy) practically turn that organization into the Titanic in terms of the financial implications of that roster moving into 2010, and he didn't overspend but was careful/cautious, knowing he didn't have the team to win it all yet. I think 2010 and 2011 will be much more significant for the eventual fates of KW and Ozzie than 2008/09 were, both feeling like transition years in turning over the roster.