caulfield12

If Poreda's a legit 4/5 starter now, then there must be another conspiracy (like there was against BA) to keep him out of the starting rotation... Right. Seriously, what has anyone seen out of Poreda in the minors or majors this year that gives us much hope he won't do anything but pile up huge numbers of pitches per inning (he won't miss as many bats with his FB at the big league level), that he won't be able to consistently put away hitters with his offspeed stuff (see Richard again), that he won't be consistently pitching much past the fifth inning... Half of the people on this board would rather leave him in the bullpen simply because they think he will be exposed (like Gio Gonzalez was) as a starting pitcher and that his trade value (pretty high right now) will be driven right into the ground? Then again, how can he max out his trade value if he can't prove he has the ability to win a start at the big league level, like Brandon McCarthy did more than once in much more difficult/trying circumstances down the stretch run in 2005 when his every outing with almost life or death and it was Brandon and Jose breathing needed life and oxygen for the rest of the team that was seemingly choking to death.

QUOTE (scenario @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 05:48 PM) Richard's minor league BB/9 is 2.5, which is very good. This year for the Sox, it's up around 3.8, which is not acceptable. Whatever is causing the control problem has to be identified and fixed. As well as a few problems with holding on runners and fielding his position...

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 05:42 PM) The problem is you never know exactly which one is going to have success. Richard has been bad lately, but he's already shown promise in the big leagues even if he has stuff to learn. Ditto Poreda. Hudson looks solid but he's only at AA even if he's moving fast. So it's entirely plausible that 3 years down the road, those 3 guys you traded could be the Jays 123 starters. Or its entirely plausible that none of them could even be on the Jays or anywhere in the big leagues. That's just how it works But based on our track record developing starters since Mark Buehrle/Garland (he doesn't really count) and what we've seen with our eyeballs over the last couple of seasons with both Poreda (a bit disappointed with his "electric" fastball) and Richard (pleasantly surprised that he seems to have better overall stuff but still not convinced he's even a starter), what would you the say the odds of that happening if KW were to be willing to give up 3 arms like that in a trade? 5%? The only similar trades in his tenure have been trading Gio/DeLos Santos (who was much less advanced, coming off just one dominating A ball season) and of course Wells/Fogg/Lowe for Ritchie (which, if nothing else, taught the GM about what would happen the next 3 seasons without a reliable fifth starter or any starting depth when all the prospects and youngsters like Wright, Barcelo, Parque, Stumm, Rauch, Diaz, Adkins, Myette, Dellaero, Ginter, etc., either didn't pan out or got injured.) I can't think of another trade when he gave up (or was willing to give up) multiple pitching prospects that were A or B tier level in our system.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 05:38 PM) There's no way they can trot Clayton back out there after today's start. I am stunned he's been this bad of late, but no way a big league pitcher can get hit like he gets hit. He was on top of the world after those early starts, now he's worse than Jose was early in the season. We can't afford to give games away and we're pretty much giving away the game when Clayton starts. Bring on Poreda. It's his turn. Contreras, Floyd, Danks and now Richard have all had stretches where they looked almost completely lost, clueless and helpless out there. Only Buehrle has truly been consistent for us, in perhaps his best first half ever, overall. Colon gave us about what many expected, maybe he started more games but had lesser stuff than many hoped coming out of ST, where he was touching 91-92-93 with his FB in order to get the starting nod with Jose at the back end of the rotation. Good work by Cooper to help get those first three guys straightened out, not sure it will be possible with Richard or not...same ?'s exist about him as a starter that existed coming into the season when the "CR/AP" moniker with Jeff Marquez and Lance Broadway as well waiting in line came into being.

Well, the AJ deal sucks simply because Nathan ended up being an elite closer...Bonser was a serviceable starter for awhile and Liriano was nicknamed "The Franchise" for awhile before getting hurt (now 4-9 with an ERA of almost 6 and seemingly never to be the same pitcher he once was). But giving up three pitchers with that kind of stuff, that's hard to stomach for any organization. Richard and Poreda don't have nearly the type of electric stuff (and yes, I realize Clayton touches mid 90's and can have a really nice change at times) than Nathan, Liriano and even Bonser (from time to time) possessed coming out of the minors. So let's say it was Richard, Poreda, Hudson and ONE more piece...not named Flower/Ramirez/Beckham/Viciedo/Danks 2. The odds of those 3 pitchers (let alone ONE of them) having the impact of either Nathan or Liriano are pretty darned minimal, and even having Boof Bonser's career would be a pleasant surprise for Clayton the way he has looked recently.

So you'd play Swisher in LF? Swisher would be better than Anderson/Owens/Wise because of the disparity between their offensive games isn't enough to keep Swisher's D in CF out of the line-up...but with Quentin playing and healthy (IF IF IF?), he doesn't seem to have a clearly defined role yet again, with Pods obviously moving to CF and staying in the leadoff position, at least against RHP and some LHP.

QUOTE (Markbilliards @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 05:27 PM) I say it simply because no one in the Sox organization has ever stated that he has a changeup that is considered to be of usable quality. I'll I've heard about it is that when he was drafted, he had no change and now he's working on it. He was indeed drafted in the first round, but our own internal development scout was bashing the pick because they couldn't ever see him developing the secondary pitches to succeed as anything but a relief pitcher. He may eventually be a good starter, but right now from what I've heard, he doesn't sound ready. When you have a real good fastball in the minors it can take you places even if you're a SP. In the majors if you have a good fastball you can throw BP. But you need at least 2 passable pitches in addition to your fastball to be a successful starter. If you've read that he has a decent change now show me, I may have just missed it. Well, Colon when he was dominant could change speeds and location/movement on his FB so well before all of his injuries and getting out of shape that he could get away with it....and even did with a FB in the 80's at times this year. Contreras, many times, is just a two-pitch pitcher, but he has different arm angles to attack with at least.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 03:23 PM) Alexie is a great streaky player and would definitley be missed if gets traded ever. But in order to get something of great value, you have to give something of great value. Kind of like the Freddy Garcia deal. We gave up Olivo, he was a guy we were all in love with ( a young and up and coming star), but we recieved Garcia- he signed an extension and we won a title. If we could get Halladay and sign him to an extension, i'd say we won that deal. Now if you also bring in Rolen (a guy who is currently .330 and is rocking a 25 game hit streak) were set to contend this year and next. You lose Flowers, a guy we got for Vazquez and you also lose Poreda (this guy is the real deal and the Jays will love him). But IMO this would be a great deal for both teams. The Sox still have decent depth in the farm and have a 1.5 year oppurtunity (at least) to win a title with Doc Halladay in thier rotation. But Olivo was obviously pretty one-dimensional offensively (he's become a bit better, but still K's too much and walks too little), but, most importantly, it seems he didn't really have the faith of the coaching staff and pitchers with his game-calling and leadership/attitude, for whatever reason. Of course, he had that gun for an arm, but there were quite a few posters on Sox boards worried about Reed or even Morse having strong careers, with the idea that while Olivo was the most important piece at the time of the trade, Reed was the one who SOME expected to have a bigger impact as an offensive player because of his Player of the Year season and track record in college. Alexei, at his worst, is Soriano Lite with some bone-headed defense and one of the best bargain contracts in the game (isn't that exactly what we need with declining revenues/attendance to maximize return on investment?)

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 04:57 PM) Is his supplier? Tough crowd today...the guy's wife just died tragically, didn't she?

What the hell is GETZ doing....??? If he would have slid, he would have been safe. Took a base hit away from Beckham and killed that rally anticipating getting to 3rd on the single. We are just not into this game...maybe we're already thinking about Minnesota and the House of Horrors. For a "grindery" player, inexcusable.

Let's just be thankful we don't have to anticipate Wasserman, Russell, Sierra, Augustin Montero, Sean Tracey or Jeff Nelson coming into the wretched game. The Twins are starting four hitters with under a .655 OPS, shades of the White Sox offense a month ago. Of course, Span/Mauer/Morneau/Cuddyer/Kubel aren't a bad "quintet."

Arnie Munoz. That's the game Uribe almost single handedly kept us in it with almost 10 RBI's when he was hitting around .400. Munoz reportedly had a great curveball...lol. That darned Willie Harris screwed up a bunt late in the game or we could have won, but it was entertaining at least, enough that I remember it vividly.

QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 12:44 PM) OK...so who was that home run on? He throws all FB to Francisco...walks him. Then Shoppach, who sees this, sits on a FB...and gets? A fastball. And hammers it? Is that on Clayton or AJ? Carrasco not fully warmed up and shows it with a walk. Richard had no slider...he either left it out over the plate or missed with it completely, so there was little choice with Ozzie or AJ to go with any other pitch there. Looking like the Thursday day game in May where we got absolutely clocked by the Twins after winning the first two. Jesus...I guess we really don't want to sweep the Indians. Not so good in the end to be 7-5 against a team in our division that's almost 20 games under .500 and 6-6 against the Royals.

Game really far from over, of course, but that might be the opening in the door for Poreda or Carrasco to get a start after the break. Poreda with the same problems with his breaking stuff and high pitch counts. Almost better to just get the GS out of the way and start over from scratch instead of having a really, really HUGE inning with 5-7 runs put on the board.

QUOTE (BFirebird @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 12:32 PM) 2-2. Indians poor defense helps us out. Thanks Peralta! DeRosa probably would have made that play, Peralta sucks wherever you put him, but especially at SS where he has no range. Beckham misses an easy snag he makes 998 times out 100, so I guess it's appropriate the game is back to even after all the poor defense from both teams. 56 pitches in that inning...I guess that's good for the concessions/vendors...maybe KW is ordering Clayton to throw 25-30 pitches per inning in order to maximize revenue possibilities. Garko, once again...rolling breaking ball up, pitches away from defense with Beckham way off the line and the ball pulled by the RH hitter.

You absolutely don't want Huff to get settled in... Nice job Konerko...way to pick up Beckham and Richard and knot things up. Paulie on an absolute tear.

Beckham whiffed on the throw, or the Indians might have been completely out of that inning or only scored one run. Clayton, OTOH, has no early feel for his breaking stuff. The ball to Peralta was a hanging slider. Richard simply has to get his breaking ball before the 3rd/4th inning or it will be too late against the Indians' offense, or his pitch count will be around 100. You can't put away hitters with only one pitch at this level...nobody can, not even Zumaya or Jenks with his best FB. Cabrera was out by a mile and had a bad jump. Ramirez and Thome with very loud and long foul balls that were pretty close to tying or giving us the lead.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 11:32 AM) Ok, so if Anderson has had his chance and we can all agree he's not going to do enough, why not send him and Wise down immediately and call up your two best OF prospects despite the contractual consequences? A sunk cost is a sunk cost. Is his defensive value really THAT high? Because Shelby/Danks/Mitchell aren't ready and Cook or Gartrell can't play CF. Restovich and Kroeger are also corner OF's.

If Contreras is on a roll like he was in 05/06 from now through August, you can be pretty sure that Floyd or Danks would be the odd man out...of course, the odds of him sustaining this level of pitching are about 10-15%, but stranger things have happened. No way do I dump Contreras when he's been one of the top 20 pitchers in MLB, is in better shape than in 05/06 and his arm/shoulder are rested and he's 100% confident. I would gladly trade Dotel...the difference between those two over half a season is only about $2 million. You don't trade a starter like Jose the way he's pitching now unless you get another nice building block for the future (starting pitcher in AA/AAA that can have an impact for six years), a leadoff hitter like Hudson/Roberts, etc. who can play 2B or possibly a better 4th OF than Anderson/Wise.

Not sure if it's possible to win a World Series with Chris Getz and an Anderson/Wise platoon OR Scotty Pods playing CF three years after Ozzie seemingly disqualified him from playing that position for the Sox again, but it's CERTAINLY nice to have this feeling again, almost (but not quite) as exciting as that homestretch and one game playoff last season. Beckham will be our first since Ordonez/Lee/Durham to make such an impact as a positional player. It took Crede and Rowand 2-3 years to really stake their claim as starters for us.

QUOTE (beckham15 @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 07:24 PM) these indian announcers are killin me...i want me some HELL YEAH How would you feel about announcing the rest of the season if your team was already selling off parts and 18 games under .500 with half the season still to play out, when they were expected to be in first or second place? Sure, they're professionals, but it takes a toll on you...everyone is human. Maybe they don't react so viscerally as Harrelson or Santo, but it can't be easy...even though it's a job we'd all LOVE to have, right?

KW blames the fans for "fomenting" bad weather over USCF with their "dark cloud" attitudes....this just in.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 07:08 PM) Kenny stated that the reason that attendance has not met projections is the economy, not the spending decisions of Sox fans. Note that Kenny didn't mention that the Cubs fans who pack Wrigley for every home game live in that same economy. Cubs fans have put up with inept front office people and even more inept teams. They haven't won a WS since 1908. Yet they still buy tickets. I'm sick and tired of the whining. You don't want to buy tickets? Fine, nobody is judging you. But stop b*tching when your GM cites the economy and ticket sales as a factor for them being more hesitant around the trade deadline... AFTER THREE STRAIGHT YEARS of $96+ million payrolls yielded mediocre attendance. The Sox have been over-spending for the past 2 1/2 years, and now's the time for the other shoe to drop. It's economic reality. Deal with it. WC Sox, imagine you're in charge of a public relations firm and your client is the Chicago White Sox. How, in any, way, shape or form...can be making these types of comments be positive or constructive? Wouldn't it be much better to have said: "Boy, we really learned our lesson in the marketing department from that Dodgers series. We learned that Sox fans would rather see the Cubs or other divisional opponents like the Tigers or Twins at regular prices than pay premium prices for a team, that, albeit the best record-wise in baseball, doesn't have very many identifiable players outside of Manny Ramirez to casual baseball fans. Along with the fact that we really hyped up this series once in 2005 (bringing back the 1959 players to reminisce), when he had the best team in baseball at the time, it was a mid-week series, some afternoon games AND the economy is taking a toll on some of our casual or walk-up fans, possibly because the team just hasn't played good baseball at home or even looked like a contending team until recently...that's my fault, I take full responsibility for the team we fielded Opening Day, but I promise that, as in years past, we will exhaust all avenues and apply all resources to competing for the ALCD crown and constructing the type of team that's capable of winning another World Series for our great White Sox fans that have been loyal for so many years." Why can't he simply say that?

QUOTE (rangercal @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 06:02 PM) Too many sensitive people in here. Facts are facts. We are towards the top half in payroll and bottom half in attendance. Do you honestly think that we are producing less revenue (including broadcast/media) with our higher ticket prices, premium pricing, parking, concessions and souvenirs than: Minnesota Seattle (could be close, SEA is a more expensive city than most) Texas Milwaukee Colorado Houston Atlanta Detroit (probably very close, we kill them with our national t.v. though, compared to their local media) All those teams are ahead of us to varying degrees in attendance, but I would argue we're actually between 10-12 in actual revenues produced....which is a different animal and I would need a recent sports marketing survey of stadium prices to prove my point. Yankees, Phillies, Dodgers, Angels, Cardinals, Cubs, Mets, Giants and Red Sox I won't argue are generating more revenues/income. But we VERY EASILY could be #10 at revenue production even at #18 in attendance, and that's BARELY trailing TEX/SEA/MINN. Is our payroll pretty much right around 8-12 in the majors? This is a false argument by KW just to look at numbers (20000 for Dodgers) and not make the comment that this 20000 produced almost the same amount as 30000 at the 8 stadiums listed above, if you take into consideration all revenue streams.

In the end, Brian Anderson, was always closer to a 640 OPS than 740 OPS that we actually needed out of him. Very wrong about Gavin Floyd, although many of us here were...just not patient enough, even with Jon Danks. Going back to offseason, had wanted Crisp (that would be a disaster now) and Blake or Hudson. I can't honestly say I was asking for Edwin Jackson to be acquired everyday...but that seemed another no-brainer, though, because of Cooper and Jackson's raw stuff. Also feel a little vindicated that Alexei has pulled out of his slide, as usually am on Cubano's side defending Alexei, Contreras or Viciedo. Of course, remember the many arguments back and forth about Taveras, and that wouldn't have turned out well for the Sox, either.