caulfield12

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 10:51 AM) Unless the market completely shifts back to normal this offseason, I can think of about $4 million or so reasons why we wouldn't. Jermaine Dye at $12 million in 2010 at age 36 is playing with fire...even if he was the full-time DH, it would make much more sense with our ballclub to find someone like an Orlando Hudson or Chone Figgins to be the DH. We could have had Abreu for $5 million (plus $1 million buyout for JD) and used that $6 million somewhere else...bullpen, CF, 4th/5th starter to replace Contreras/Colon, etc. We still have plenty of power in our line-up with the addition of Fields and the future additions of Beckham/Viciedo/Flowers/Allen.

No...I mean, would BA be booed? Because it's not so easy for me to differentiate "Ozzie booing" and "Wise booing" like so many are doing. In other words, I am sure there would be muted boos or no boos at all for BA in the same situation...but why should it be different for him than Wise or Owens?

I'll go back to the same point then... If Ozzie put BA in the leadoff spot and he failed with three bunt attempts (pretty likely) and struck out the same number of times (over the course of two games), would people still boo him like they booed Wise? If not, why? Why would BA NOT be booed and Wise was mercilessly booed? Because BA "saved" the season with his catch at the end of the blackout game? Because he was going crazy with Rowand on the dugout steps in 2005? Because he came up in our farm system? Most fans would agree that NEITHER BA nor Wise would be suited for leadoff spot on a contending ballclub, CORRECT?

Thought I would start collecting some of the most interesting Wise/Owens comments....last time I checked, nobody had ever talked about "killing" Brian Anderson or wishing that he got injured. In all fairness, I started one of the anti-Wise threads (Special thread dedicated to shots at Wise) but this whole situation is really starting to be aggravating if you say ANYTHING positive about Wise/Owens. EXAMPLE 1 QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 03:04 PM) How many times can you "kill" this guy? "It requires silver bullets and a wooden stake through the heart. And decapitate him for good measure." (stan bahnsen) EXAMPLE 2 f*** this idiotic decision. WTF are KW and Ozzie thinking here? I mean seriously, at LEAST go get someone who can hit in AAA, let alone the majors, like Kroeger or even Cook. Jerry Owens? Seriously? You STILL can't give Anderson, who is superior in just about every aspect of the game, a chance to start here? You WANT a guy with no arm playing CF? Godammit, son of a b****, f*** this cover-my-ass clique protection vendetta they have to put Owens out there when he ISN'T GOOD!!! Of course, the irony of the situation is everyone assuming the "conspiracy" was still in by Ozzie against BA and that Owens would actually be starting today in Detroit, coming off a 1/7 start in Charlotte with 3-4 strikeouts.

DETROIT - Jerry Owens is scheduled to rejoin the White Sox before Tuesday's game at Detroit, but don't expect him to get an immediate shot at regaining the leadoff/center field job to Dewayne Wise in spring training. The decision to purchase the contract of Owens, 28, who was 1-for-7 at Triple-A Charlotte, was made by general manager Ken Williams, according to manager Ozzie Guillen, after Wise was lost for at least six weeks after separating his right shoulder while making a diving catch of Ramon Santiago's drive. But Brian Anderson, who drew two walks and stole two bases Monday, might get more of a shot at winning more playing time. “Kenny made that decision because we need a center fielder right now," Guillen said of the Owens' promotion. "We’re going to start by keep playing with Brian. ... I have to see how (Owens) was doing because I don’t think he was doing too well in Triple-A, either. "But when I got to the office, Kenny said (Owens) would be coming for the next couple of days and we'll see how he does. I need a true center field. Hopefully Brian does the job, if not, I’ll give Jerry a shot.’’ Williams and Guillen each expressed their disappointment that Owens didn't display more intensity during spring training, but both understood that Owens' personality isn't fiery. www.chicagotribune.com/sports Unfortunately, we'll never get to find out, as all those games will be on the road, but I would be shocked if he was treated like poor Wise was by the fans. I guess this will be a fun couple of weeks... We can all second-guess BA if he doesn't make an all-effort to dive for a ball (Wise would have laid out for that one!) or if he strikes out 7 times in 16 at-bats. So the first argument will be (if he takes an 0 for today) will be that Porcello is one of the best young pitching prospects in the game, throws 95-99 MPH, is right-handed and BA has never faced him before, so it's advantage pitcher...everyone accept that argument so far? By the way, I am now going to start calling him Brian Nikola Anderson...or just Nikola Anderson. TUE: RHP Porcello (never faced Porcell, but will start against a RHP, good test of his bat speed against FB) WED: RHP Galarraga (never faced Galarraga, but will start against a RHP) Next phase...at Tampa Bay (wraparound series)...possible excuses: White Sox never play well in domed stadiums, BA is only 2 for 15 lifetime against current Rays' pitchers (inexplicably, both are against Sonnanstine, who I would expect him to struggle against the most, BA not familiar with starting pitchers, etc.) THUR: RHP Jeff Niemann (lost 6-0 in last start, game Wise/Owens would ordinarily start) FRI: RHP James Shields (never faced, co #1 starter for Rays, BA wouldn't ordinarily start) SAT: LHP Scott Kazmir (here's where BA would "normally" start, even though he is 0 for 6 with 5 K's lifetime against Kazmir) SUN: RHP Matt Garza (BA 0 for 2 with 2 K's lifetime, Ozzie would normally use Wise/Owens) So that should be six starts in a row for BA...with four of the six being pitchers he (BA) has never faced before. Kazmir, the lone lefty in the Rays' rotation, has owned him so far. Sonnanstine, the pitcher who gives us fits, luckily misses us (but BA's 2/3 for lifetime against Sonny) FINALLY, stage 3. If BA "survives" these six tough games on the road...then things SHOULD get easier in BALT. TUE: LHP Mark Hendrickson (BA 0 for 3 lifetime) WED: RHP Jeremy Guthrie (BA 0 for 3 lifetime) THUR: RHP Adam Eaton (BA has never faced) So BA should have at least 9 starts in a row, with only 2 of them coming against lefties...and both lefties are ones that he struggles with, or tends to struggle with in the case of Hendrickson. I think that's a pretty fair test to see where he's at in 9 games...yes or no? Of course, I can see the argument already. He's either not faced any of these 9 pitchers coming up OR he has never had a single hit (or bit of success) against any of them. Yes? So anticipated argument: Ozzie is deliberately putting BA in a position to fail and he shouldn't be judged on his results against these 9 upcoming pitchers he will face. That gets us to TOR and SEA at home. BA hasn't faced any of the Jays' starters, but he is, of course, a Felix Hernandez killer (2/5 lifetime with 2 homers and 3 RBI's) and a blistering 6 for 13 with a homer off Carlos Silva. He also has a hit apiece against Bedard (1/6, 2B) and Washburn (1/4, HR). Unfortunately, these games are not AT Seattle!!! So the question for BA supporters, if he gets 13 starts in the next 15 games...is that enough to determine if he (BA) should remain the starter? Personally, these arguments about Wise/Anderson/Owens are starting to remind me of "you're either with us or against us" (meaning the terrorists or the good 'ol USA)...but looking forward to see what happens. I guess that puts me in the terrorist camp for defending Wise and/or Owens. So be it.

Probably because they have Brandon Phillips ensconced at 2B already, and that's where a lot of teams were projecting Beckham. Now, he's (Beckham) certainly better than Gonzalez (SS), Encarnacion (3B) and whoever they have playing LF on any given day...so maybe they foresaw Alonso playing in LF? I don't know. One more thing about the game yesterday...James Adkins (Lookouts) was the Dodgers' #1 pick in 2007.

Brandon Allen just went 4 for 4...he had a double, but he ended up overrunning the bag and getting called out as the infielder held the tag. Nice to see he hit that ball in the LCF gap. Wow....Theriot type numbers, up to .524. Allen should have two singles, a double and a triple...but they ruled that a single and out at second. 11/21 on the season for Allen. Beckham just ripped a liner for his first homer of the season....2-3 feet inside the pole but way out, 2 RBI's. Allen K's and ends up at 4 for 5. (triple, 2 singles and what should have been a double but he overslid the bag)

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 08:07 PM) We traded Reed for Freddy, Webster for Everett, Rowand for Thome, and Young for Javy Vazquez. Those were all no-brainers at the time IMO. We got the best player in each deal and each deal gave us a better chance of winning during a window of opportunity. I think all the MLB players acquired played a much bigger role in the decision to trade those players than BA's presence did. Also, the Sox could have looked for a stopgap alternative if they didn't want BA out there in 2006. Walker admitted later that BA wasn't ready, and everyone knew it, but Kenny didn't get an alternative. The Sox wanted BA to fail before they made changes, which apparently he wasn't very receptive to. This had all come after tons of comments that all BA had to do was play D, yet he still was trashed in the papers, and he still was made a scapegoat even though the offense wasn't the problem with the 2006 team, it was the bullpen, which Anderson actually helped by playing CF. Any manager that tries to make up for bad pitching by adding offense and further weakening defense is an idiot. There was definitely a choice in the matter between starting Mackowiak for his bat and starting Anderson for his glove. The Sox had forced themselves to be patient with BA because *they completely failed to develop him into an MLB-ready player.* Yet, they still trashed him in the media. Negligible return? How do we know this? Josh Anderson just brought a halfway decent MR prospect and Anderson was a better prospect due to his power potential. If KW has shown us anything, it is that he is not afraid to flat out dump a bad clubhouse influence. He's not going to care about the return if he deems it necessary. If Kenny felt that BA wasn't worth his or Ozzie's time then he'd have taken a A-baller or two and called it a day. Yes, we all figured Ozzie would platoon BA and Wise/Owens if BA got any time at all. However, it was supposed to have been a fair competition and once again it wasn't. Who cares what BA hit at the very beginning of spring? Why is that a factor? The final cuts were made very late and BA's numbers were there then. If anything, I'd much rather have a guy who is ending the spring on a high note anyway. If anyone made Seattle look stupid it was Cooper, not Kenny. Kenny pulled the trigger and Coop did the actual work. Would you also say that St. Louis made Minnesota look stupid for giving up on Kyle Lohse? I wouldn't. The guy sucked, just like Thornton sucked in Seattle. He needed a fresh start and better advice from a better pitching coach, and he got it. I think anytime you trade a lefty (reliever or starter) who throws 95-97 MPH pretty consistently, you're stupid. The Mets learned this lesson the hard way when they traded Kazmir for Zambrano. As far as the Twins go, I give a lot more credit to their scouts/GM than to the development in the minors and Rick Anderson. They really got into a situation where they mishandled Garza (even though Garza now admits he was immature, the club has to figure out the right way to get through to a player instead of just giving in or giving up)...they didn't get anything out of Lohse or Boof Bonser, either. I'm not sure how much Liriano and Santana had success due to coaching and how much it was just pure ability/talent...Liriano hasn't shown the ability to adjust from just being a pure thrower with two dominant pitches to a "pitcher" with command of 3-4 pitches. I will give them credit for developing Silva (after he was acquired from Philly), Slowey, Perkins and Blackburn. Their track record is better in terms of drafting and development (Blackburn, I think was a draft pick in the late 20's in terms of rounds where you don't usually expect much).

Call Cubano, Viciedo now over .300 at .316 with his second RBI of the night. Allen on fire, now batting .500. Viciedo has a stolen base (somehow) and Tyler Flowers threw out another runner, good news. Hudson just hit a bomb for his first homer. BIRM just gave up their first run out of the bullpen in 20 innings...Lujan is getting bombed, back to back to back doubles...6-2 Barons.

Royals jump out to an early 3-0 lead over the Indians and Carmona...still haven't gotten a really encouraging start from one of their aces yet.

Interesting random stat...45 runners left on base by the Lookouts through the first four games, and the Lookouts have outhit the Barons in 3/4 games, too. Lambo is 2/2, hitting .476. Mr. (not Daniel) Hudson is playing CF for the first time tonight. Beckham just muffed a play at SS, but was able to recover (couldn't get the out at 2B), but was able to get the 3rd out at first. Unlike Gavin Floyd, the Lookouts pitching has been able to escape consistently throughout this series. Allen ripped a ball down into the RF corner and LEGGED out a triple and ended it with an athletic slide....Viciedo followed with a single (ground ball) to the opposite field to drive in Brandon. 2-0 Barons, 7 hits through 2 1/3 innings. Allen 2/2, now at .474. Cuban Tank Viciedo 1/2=.278, Lee Cruz is also two for two so far tonight. Colina just missed a GS with the bases loaded...you just cannot get the ball out of that stadium!!!!

QUOTE (WCSox @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 07:09 PM) The problem with this analysis is that you don't know for sure that he simply "pouted a couple of times." I don't think that anybody here does. A LOT goes on behind closed doors that nobody here is privy to. A friend of my sister's knew BA when she was at Arizona. And from what I've heard second-hand, he had serious maturity issues back then. So I wasn't terribly surprised that he worked his way into Ozzie's doghouse in 2006. I'm not defending the way that Ozzie and Kenny have handled BA. But it's pretty silly to rush to judgement when there's A LOT that even people who follow the team closely don't know about the situation. Oh, and he still struggles to hit .220. That doesn't help either. Some players just don't fit in with their original organization, for whatever reason. Garza and Delmon Young haven't worked out very well (so far with Young) in Minnesota, and both those teams gave up VERY early on each player. And we're talking about two guys in the Top 10-25 of all major league prospects in terms of ability. Or David Ortiz. Change of scenery trades have worked wonderfully for the Sox this decade. We know them all, no need to list them all off again. Hawk was telling about a player who was one of the top prospects in the organization that was released on the spot during the "organizational" meeting early in spring training...compared to that, KW and Ozzie have given BA many many chances. Felix Pie didn't have nearly the number of AB's on the NorthSide b4 they dumped him.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 06:47 PM) There's a lot here... BA was not more of an athlete than a player. Yes, he was toolsy, but he's not some guy who didn't start playing baseball until later in life. BA's attitude supposedly was an issue. So was Orlando Cabrera's attitude. The difference? OC hit well so he kept his job. Brian could have been handled better so that he'd have hit enough to stay. And also, the attitude stuff is WAY overblown here. The guy is making the league minimum and, especially in 2006, would have brought in a decent return at least. KW would have sent his ass packing in a heartbeat if BA's attitude was such a huge problem. I don't know what your point is about trading players out of the organization. The Sox kept BA. Shouldn't that be a positive towards BA then? And I think McCarthy was dealt because he had a wild delivery, an arrow-straight fastball, and a wiry frame, and Danks was in every way a better prospect. The organizational philosophy is retarded when it comes to BA. You can't just make one stupid mission statement and apply it to everyone. You handle prospects on a case-by-case basis. What works for a talented player in college is probably not going to work against Major League pitching. It's one thing if you're talking about a pitcher, i.e. you don't want to just rush in and try to make large changes to a pitcher's delivery, but it is completely different for a hitter. You may not want to tear down his whole swing, but you can get him to make some changes that will allow for him to become a better player as he moves up levels, instead of the same exact player as he moves up levels. Rowand and Crede got everyday playing time. Crede hit better than BA did in the minors and it took him years to develop his bat. No organization is supposed to basically give up on a first round pick because he pouted a couple of times. That is retarded. The way the Sox have handled BA is retarded. See, you're back to resorting to personal attacks on BA from the team or "sources" that were launched through the media. BA is a scapegoat. And once again I'll ask this question since you apparently didn't give it much consideration, if Brian was such a bad influence, why did they not trade him for a prospect? If they didn't like his attitude, or his tendencies to sleep with women, and they didn't like the fact that he got sick (I believe) playing in a South American s***hole and didn't want to go back, then they could have dumped his ass. It's not like he's making too much money to do so. Now you're criticizing Brian's approach at the plate. Okay, fine. What are the minor leagues for? Don't you think the coaches down there should have noticed and attempted to correct all these things before the Sox promoted him to the Bigs? That's yet another indictment of the previous regime. No, BA never at any time looked worse than Owens. BA had nice Springs in 2007, 2008, and 2009 yet broke as a 4th OF all three seasons. You have a selective memory here. If you can find the old ST stats, look them up. I've been riding on the Jerry Owens/Darin Erstad Hate Train for a long time so I know. I wouldn't jump and shout with glee that we've traded guys like Olivo, Morse, and Reed to Freddy Garcia. You're supposed to do those things. You're supposed to try to assemble the best pitching staff possible. Just because they didn't pan out doesn't mean the Sox didn't like them, and it doesn't mean the Sox at the time wouldn't have rather traded other players. People get hung up on this s***, like Kenny Williams is a magician and he waves this magic wand that makes other GM's stupid. Look, Seattle's scouts obviously loved those guys and they thought they were getting a terrific deal. The prospects didn't pan out, but that is no surprise, because prospects often do not pan out. Yet, still to this day, Morse is a MLB bench player, Reed is a MLB 4th OF, and Olivo is a starting C in the big leagues. I'd say overall Seattle's people did a pretty good job identifying talent, but it just didn't turn out the way they'd have liked it to. Any time you make a deal where you give up the best player in the deal you put yourself at great risk of losing. We traded Webster, Reed, Chris Young and Rowand...so that BA could be the everyday CFer on a team defending the World Series championship. I don't buy the whole idea that KW thought that BA wasn't ready then. The risk was too high to go into the season with BA if there was any doubt about his ability. What happened is that they had no choice but to try to get more offense in the line-up that season...it was fine when we were 26 games over .500 at the break, but then the starting pitching and Jenks went south at the same time and they had to try to beef up the line-up. If anything, they were TOO patient with BA that year. Wise was moved down in the line-up after two games this season...Anderson had MANY games to prove himself, and it's not like BA was treated too harshly by the fans. I don't remember even when he was hitting 170 or 180 in June that the fans were particularly harsh with him like they were with Wise last week. The reason BA wasn't traded was because he still had some upside, and the return was negligible...so it made more sense to hold onto him and hope things magically would start to click. I'm not talking about BA's overall ST statistics, but about how poorly he played the first 2-3 weeks. We can argue all day long, but it's not like BA really deserved to win the starting job...it was known to all of us that it would likely be a "platoon" with BA and Wise/Owens...so if you want to say he was "demoted" to 4th/5th outfielder, that's fine I guess. KW made Seattle look even more stupid when they dumped Borchard and got back the best LH set-up pitcher in baseball in Thornton. He's not a magician...I have never claimed that. I used to be one of his biggest critics in 2002/2003 (along with Manuel), but I slowly changed my opinion about him...he's between 5-10 of all MLB GM's. You can say he's 12-18 or whatever, but if you look at the likes of Shapiro, Ryan/Smith and Dombrowski, none of them won the World Series this decade.

It's simple....Ryan Sweeney, pure/short/compact stroke, which looks even better because he's LH and younger. BA...long/looping/disjointed swing that looks like the swinging gate from Atticus Finch's picket fence half the time...complete susceptibility to low and away breaking stuff (ala Uribe) Last year, Ryan has a 350 OBP and 733 OPS. ANY WHITE SOX FAN WOULD DIE TO GET THAT OUT OF BA FOR A FULL SEASON. There's your difference. Sweeney is younger, left-handed, has a better arm (although BA is a better overall CFer) and has a much better eye at the plate, thus the higher OBP. Sweeney is a very good athlete who should hit for more power than he does, but his swing isn't geared for tapping into his raw ability, and he may wind up being just a guy who struggles to hit 10 homers at the big-league level because of the lack of loft in his stroke. He hit .286 last year despite battling a bunch of hand and wrist problems, so perhaps a little more health will create a little more pop, but don't bet on it. He doesn't hit lefties well at all, but he should continue to have part of the center-field job in at least the better side of a platoon arrangement. espn.com That said, he still obvious has many holes in his game too, which is why KW was willing to part with him and hold on to BA for at least one more season.

KW could care less about Charlotte...the only problems he'll have to deal with are complaints about what a horrendous team he has there (in terms of fans and attendance and "atmosphere") if he wants to keep that affiliation with the Sox. We have the worst AAA and best AA team in the minors. It's all about development...winning is secondary at the AA level...especially if the major league team has a competitive/winning atmosphere. Maybe winning would be more important for Nats, Padres, Pirates, Royals, Astros, Orioles, etc., farmhands. I'm sure that if Poreda does well, he will be promoted sometime this season to Charlotte...same with Beckham and Viciedo. It will take longer with Allen, Flowers and Shelby, for sure. But even Allen could be in Charlotte by July/August and then September call-up, too.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 04:40 PM) Anderson and Ryan Sweeney went through the same development system. Why is Sweeney having success? He's just flat out more talented with the bat. Far more likely than an organizational conspiracy against Brian - the simple possibility that BA spent a long time being unable to shorten his swing. It seems better to the eye now, but we need results at some point. One of these two guys figured out major league pitching, the other hasnt. Opportunities have been there. Brian even showed more promise than Sweeney with the bat when both were a few yrs younger. But ML pitching stops some guys' careers in their tracks. We call the Sox bad developers of talent, but theyve traded away so much that I dont know how well we can fairly evaluate this. Sweeney MIGHT develop a little more extra-base/gap power someday, he'll need it in order to play everyday, against both lefties and righties. I would be fine with Ryan, as a platoon player, or on the corners (where he doesn't really fit, just like David DeJesus in KC)...but his lack of power forces him into CF, where he's not an ideal player. I think KW knew that he would never have more than warning track power (even at USCF), so he tried to put together a package that would give him a player that could play everyday in Swisher...of course, that didn't work out as KW planned, or Nick, for that matter. As a CFer, Sweeney is average or slightly below average MLB...and his offensive numbers there are going to be roughly the same...750-775 OPS, good, but not great. I am sure KW would have traded BA instead of Sweeney to get Swisher, but Beane wouldn't have taken it...just as we would have loved to trade BA/Vizcaino for Vazquez instead of Chris B. Young.

KHP, there's a corollary to your thoughts on JD. The White Sox picked a player who they felt was athletically talented, yet, like many of our top choices in the past 10-15 years, he was far from a refined baseball player, he was an athlete playing baseball. It worked all the way through the minor leagues. Where BA has gotten in trouble is with his attitude, and that's something that you can't coach or overcome with some players. It's possible BA will blossom in another organization, but how many times has that happened? How many times can you count that KW has gotten rid of a player that went on to have huge success with another organization??? If anything, KW has been great at 2 things...1) finding undervalued/injured players via trade from other organizations, but also FA's like Takatsu, Jenks, Loaiza, Iguchi, AJ, Hermanson, Ramirez, 2) trading overvalued players within our organization (Garcia deal, McCarthy, etc., the list goes on and on) As they mentioned in the broadcast today, the organizational philosophy has evolved into NOT trying to change a player's swing after they draft him. In other words, if what got you drafted works, why try to fix it? The problem with BA came in not being able to make adjustments at the major league level, not being able to make his swing more compact and perhaps not responding well to coaching or isolating himself/pouting when things weren't going well. If you look at Rowand and Crede, for example, they had horrible swings when they came to the majors, especially Crede...but, with time/patience/coaching, they were able to maximize (in my opinion) the ability of those two particular players. Sure, there was a huge "miss" with Joe Borchard, but, if anything, he falls into the athlete/football player who just wasn't meant to be a major league ballplayer, despite having a great character/personality and huge power (when he hit the ball). Back to BA. I think he's been a good teammate the last couple of seasons, but he really was a pain in his first couple of seasons in the organization. He's not one of those guys like Getz or Fields that everyone roots for...he's either hated or beloved. Why is that? If you're going to blame the organization, 50% of the blame is at BA's door. Other examples: 1) Reputation for partying/staying out late/BA's "hunnies"...which has led some to believe he wasn't as serious about the game as he needed to be 2) Skipping winter ball at least one season when he was asked to play...and being very resistant in general to offseason "commitments" to improve his game...look at the "miracle" that has happened with Josh Fields from making a commitment just for a weekend or two to work out with Cora in the offseason down in Miami....has BA ever done anything like that? 3) Showing very limited abilities to change his "lift and pull" stroke and make more solid contact...bunting...hitting to the opposite field...even hitting the cutoff man or just improving his baseball "acumen." Ramirez and Beckham are instinctive players, whereas BA still has a lot of areas to make improvement, especially in terms of baserunning. All that being said, he's a guy with 650 OPS against RHP over 300+ MLB at-bats. He didn't prove himself as a consistent hitter this spring until coming on late...but he was a disaster the first 2 weeks of spring, he looked even worse than Owens, to tell the truth. This is the time of ST that Wise was taking off and landed in "first" in the competition for CF. If anything, as an organization, we've maximized the values of our "Jeremy Reeds/Morses/Olivos" to get first-line major league talent like Freddy Garcia. From 1990-1998, we had the most wins in baseball after the New York Yankees. From 1990-2008, we have the second or third most wins following the Yankees and Braves...how can anyone say that we haven't done a good job as an organization (overall) for the last twenty years?

QUOTE (Wanne @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 04:20 PM) Hell...why not Pods?!? I'd take Pods and his noodle arm out there over Owens and his noodle arm anyday. At least Pods can hit. He looked pretty damn good this spring at the plate. Pods was horrible in 2006/07 and now he's 3 years older...and he really just can't play CF any better than Swisher or Mackowiak. Owens is a much better CFer than Pods, both of them have lousy arms, but we have Alexei at least to take 60% of the cutoffs, he has one of the best infield arms in the game. If KW takes Owens (even though he wasn't even on the 40 man) and skips over Pods, what does that tell you about what KW thinks about the idea of bringing back Mr. Dergan?

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 04:18 PM) How many times have you seen him play with your own two eyes to make a judgement on his defense. Simply based on the videos I've seen of him, from watching him play at UGA, College World Series, from watching almost all of the ST games that he played SS and a few at 2B, from listening to the descriptions of the minor league announcers and commentators from multiple organizations, from our beat writers and the impressions they're given by the front office, by BA, by MLB Scouting, by BP, etc. Merely the compilation of all the "anecdotal" or "qualitative" analysis I've seen on him.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 04:08 PM) Um, you f***ing stick with Getz? There's your leadoff hitter. As far as CF, you go with Brian full time. The odds are better than 50% that Getz will fail at leadoff and that BA will be terribly exposed playing against righties. When's the last time a White Sox rookie was able to just enter the line-up and play everyday...by that, I don't mean Ramirez, who was an international player and already 26...but someone we drafted or even traded for? Maybe everyone has fallen in love with Chris Getz because of how well he played in ST...and he did have a good season last year...but you look at players like Rowand and Crede, it took them 2-3-4 years to establish themselves in the White Sox line-up. Just count me skeptical. I will be more than willing to admit that I was wrong whenever you want to revisit this, but I would be glad to "on the record" state that I don't think Getz will do well enough at leadoff to stay there and I don't think Anderson will succeed as an everyday player with that swing of his. As I said, maybe it's because the last middle infielder even having a decent season as a rookie was Mike Caruso, and he was acquired via trade and rushed to the big leagues before he was ready.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 04:05 PM) Lead-off hitter is not a position on the field. Centerfield is. This is not a complicated issue Caulfield. You're a very intelligent Sox fan and a very good poster, so please don't (as Hawk would say) out-dumb yourself. If we're going to be forced to put a sucky hitter at the top of our lineup then it doesn't matter how much speed this sucky hitter has because he's already a sucky hitter. Ignore the speed, go with the defense, and let Ozzie put out his dumbass lineups if he's going to do that anyway. I'd like to say also that I ragged on D-Wise as a starter and still wouldn't have wanted him out there every day even if he hadn't gotten injured, but I was very impressed with the balls-out Aaron Rowand OMG catch today. It may have easily saved us the game. I hope he recovers quickly and is back as a 4th OF. Maybe I just enjoying playing Devil's Advocate...because sometimes players here get picked on too much, while others (see BA) with similar records of non-achievement are hoisted on pedestals as if they are the next Torii Hunter, even though they have shown no signs of this happening at age 26 or 27. Personally, I'm all for bringing up Beckham and putting Ramirez in CF. It's better than putting Beckham or Getz in the outfield (although Beckham isn't the equal of Ramirez defensively, nobody can convince me of this). Shelby and Danks obviously aren't ready yet for CF. Screw this arbitration clock stuff...as Hawk noted, as soon as they signed Longoria to a 7 year extension, he was in Tampa within days. We either bring up Beckham or we make a trade for a legitimate, everyday CF if we really want to win this division. It's just frustrating because if we would have signed Kenny Rogers in 2003 for peanuts or traded for CoCo Crisp this season, you'd have two teams that could have gone a long ways....even capable of winning a World Series.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 03:53 PM) Jerry Owens should NEVER hit leadoff for the White Sox again regardless of who fails. You start Anderson in CF and hit him leadoff before you stick Owens back in that role. You do something proactive like acquiring a new, more talented player to fill your leadoff role. Owens is out of chances. You do not give the worst hitter on your team the most PA especially when he's giving you close to nothing in the field. He's a bad baseball player. And yes you hit Alexei at the top before Owens. Jerry Owens isn't even fast! He has no business hitting at the top of anyone's lineup. Okay, who would you target and what would you be willing to give up? We can all say, gee, it'd be great to have Blanco or Denard Span or Chone Figgins or Vernon Wells or whoever, but are none of those options are realistic ones (well, maybe Blanco if the Braves are 100% confident in Schaffer). It doesn't matter if in Ozzie and KW's mind that BA has already had enough chances/opportunities to prove he's not an everyday player either...we can whine and bellyache and complain until the cows come home about Ozzie's vendetta against BA, but if really didn't want him, he'd be off the team, just like what happened with Vazquez, Swisher and Cabrera. Why would they keep him on the roster? Just to torture him and those who post on message boards?

QUOTE (qwerty @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 03:18 PM) He suggested michael bourn also, what else do you really expect? Seems to be a trend of him liking players that make a team worse and not better. Maybe we should bring in Belle, Wil Cordero, Toe Nash and Dukes...why not Barry Bonds while we're at it? You can go back to multiple early off-season threads about this problem, I said that we needed to pick up/trade for Crisp and Blake. I was wrong about needing Blake, Josh at 100% health is a better player, and certainly cheaper. We've debated any number of players here, like Willy Taveras. Here's what I would like to see someone do...tell me what CF that's decent BOTH offensively and defensively and that will give you a 350+ OBP and that wouldn't even cost someone in our Top 8 prospects would you have gotten? Also, keep in mind that it would be better if this player also had at least "decent" character...so we can cross Dukes off that list, if he was actually available for a Danks/Allen/Shelby (doubtful).

.275 BA .323 OBP .320 SLG .643 OPS That's Jerry Owens career-wise against RHP. I'm not sure how that is so different from BA's averages against RHP over his career. Can we be assured that either Lillibridge (doubtful) or Getz (maybe, he's had a couple of 350 OBP's in the minors) will do significantly better than a .330 OBP? Yes, BA is a better defender, but he's not a leadoff hitter. If Getz/Lillibridge fail at this position, who do you want to use, Alexei Ramirez???

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 02:58 PM) So Getz goes 1 for 9 in the leadoff spot over 3 games and that proves that he's no better than Owens? And what exactly disqualifies him from leadoff duty? It's just a hunch, just like with Wise...a feeling that Getz fits into this line-up and is much more comfortable batting 2nd, 8th or 9th. At least Owens is conditioned to hitting first. Maybe we'll catch lightning in a bottle while KW is trying to find another solution...or maybe Owens will play so badly that Ozzie has no choice but to play BA everyday, one of those three things will happen (hopefully).