caulfield12

Don't forget the presence of Cooper, Juan Nieves, Alexei Ramirez, Contreras, Castro (now), Ozzie Guillen and family...this organization has always made Hispanic players feel very welcome and at home, whereas they feel alienated/segregated in many clubhouses. Uribe was the favorite of many players, both black/white/Hispanic...maybe they can get through to this pitcher in a way other teams have failed before. Now if we could somehow get Chapman...the odds of that happening with KW's comment (for the 100th time) on money/economics just went down to about 5-10%.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:08 PM) He got bailed out that the division is severely underachieving. Which I think we (at SoxTalk) and KW also BET was what would happen...but how could he be surprised when we've had two good mini-runs and about 60 games of totally uninspired play (especially at home), shutouts nearly every week?? It's just not a good product...or it wasn't until recently. You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. White Sox fans are not so easily duped by the ballpark "experience/ambience" as Cubs fans. So he's arguing because we're now close/closer to first place, even though we've looked average to below average for much of three months...that his gambling should be rewarded by 05/06/08 level attendance when the product on the field is clearly inferior (until two weeks ago) to the 2008 version?

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:03 PM) He points to the Dodgers series which was a premium series in the middle of the week and on top of it, the Sox raised ticket prices and parking and dumped payroll and the biggest thing is in this economy the comment shouldn't be made. I know KW is a savvy guy, but these comments could have come right out of the mouths of any GM/Chrysler/NYC major investment bank/AIG/Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac CEO...just makes him and the marketing staff seem completely out of touch with what's reality in the marketplace.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:02 PM) The worst part is that fake, unconcerned, half-ass non-committal diplomatic tone. He'd be better off saying, "Screw the fans for not showing up" instead of pretending to be somewhat unaware of the reasons for the low attendance. People are out of work, and they're not just going to come in droves after a nice stretch because last time your team did that they threw it right back in our faces by playing like horses***. And, you started DeWayne Wise in CF and backed it with your own personal mantra of "I don't care what people think," so take that you f***wad. I almost always defend Kenny and I think he's a top GM in the league, but some of his comments are really indefensible. Just come out and say whatever you're going to say, but don't sit there and hide behind this "I think" and "I don't know" bulls***. You know your farm system of previous years is a big part of the reason we're playing these young guys right now. Agreed...starting the season with Lillibridge, Owens (later), Anderson, Corky Miller, MacDougal, Betemit, D. Wise, Colon/Contreras...that was just PRACTICALLY BEGGING for trouble. Fields and Getz weren't sure things either, although both looked very good in ST. He really got bailed out a bit by Colon and Richard, now Contreras...and the emergence of Pods and Beckham to breathe some life into the offense. It's amazing the change now, and how other complementary players like Getz have less pressure upon them and can stay within themselves and quit trying to press to do too much. And that's without Quentin for two months.

If they deal Buehrle or Konerko (with the way he's been going this year), just wait... They can live without Dye, Thome, AJ, Jenks, etc., but those two players I listed will draw a significant backlash if they were ever to be traded, even though many times since he signed his new contract, Konerko has failed to live up to it...he's a lot like the Mike Sweeney of this organization and he will be sorely missed by the front office, and even moreso by the fans, when he's gone. And they do have Beckham (seemingly) to build around as one of the new faces of the organization, the Danks brothers, the Cubans, etc.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 10:49 PM) If anything it should be an eye opener to whoever on their staff set pricing. What do they expect? They should have handed back cash (or vouchers good for at least half the differential between premium and "regular" pricing) and that would have been a much better move than KW's constant bellyaching. Without Manny Ramirez, mid-week, day games, with how bad the team looked for much of the early season, the fact they'd already had this 59 World Series match-up in 2005 when we had a great team...well, nobody on this message board was surprised. Apparently the Sox marketing staff was, though, which tells you they are a little out of touch with reality or drinking too much of KW's intoxicating Kool-Aid.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:38 PM) Well yeah, but he still took dump #1 on us by blaming us for not being able to make a payroll adding trade, then took dump #2 on us by making a trade that's indefensible on paper. As far as I'm concerned, Kenny can go to hell right now. Marte for Guerrier Thornton for Borchard Cotts as part of the Foulke/Koch trade Jenks from the scrap heap Takatsu Hermanson DJ Carrasco Politte, etc. Just relax. Sisco and Aardsma went south on us, but if the Sox under KW are BEST at any one thing, it's finding underperforming or "miscoached" talent in other organizations...just not drafting it (until Beckham.) He also added salary with the addition of Ramon Castro, who hit a crucial 3 run homer for us in our winning streak.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:33 PM) Good, because MacDougal was lights out for the Sox when the first acquired him. It doesn't hurt to strenghten the bullpen. 2 back of Detroit and Detroit is woeful on the road and have 47 road games the second half. DET has gone 15-6 against the "weak" AL West and we've struggled against TEX and OAK but we still have quite a few more games remaining with those teams...we're 7-9 in six fewer games, accounting for 5 1/2 games in the standings.

Simple.... Allen is 24 already, so it's not like he is a "spring chicken," he's more of a late bloomer. We were dealing from a position of strength in our organization (Konerko, Fields, Viciedo, Flowers, Phegley, etc.) and Allen was no longer projected to be an impact bat based on this season's results, apparently. With Poreda, Carrasco, Thornton, Linebrink, Dotel, Jenks and Pena, we arguably now have the best bullpen in baseball, at least from a "potential" standpoint, in terms of a collection of arms. It's the same principle KW operated under when he had the excess starting pitcher in the organization in 2005 and 2006...to deal from a position of strength instead of one of weakness and desperation. Let's wait to see if Pena can outperform Dotel at significantly less money and Dotel (or dreaming, Linebrink) can be leverage for yet another piece...

Not to mention the fact the Dodgers were playing without their biggest draw in Manny Ramirez... C'mon KW, you're smarter than this. Nobody is buying what you are selling. Go work for the Yankees/Mets/Dodgers/Angels/Red Sox and see how it goes there...you have a lifetime appointment as GM of the White Sox, but that doesn't give you a right to be condescending to the fanbase on so many occasions. After all PR/Marketing go hand-in-hand, and I guarantee none of KW's comments have ever inspired fans to support the team, they've probably had a negative affect of turning the casual Sox fans on the fence away from attending a game, just to spite KW/JR.

Where's Dick Allen in this thread? KW should be writing speeches for some of the politicians getting caught with their hands in the cookie (or "hunnies") jar. Ridiculous. The one thing people keep forgetting about is that the White Sox ticket, parking and concessions prices are among the Top 5 in all of baseball. They should do what the Angels and Dodgers do in a similar economic market and try to be more fan-friendly with prices...and not run off the average, middle class family of 4 living in the suburbs. More half-price nights (weeknights, MON/THUR), better promotions during midweek or afternoon games...not just weekends. Stop relying so much on Saturday night fireworks shows, stop relying so much on 05/06 and get creative again. Don't sit back and insult the fans. They have greater revenue generating ability from the stadium naming rights, corporate sponsorships in Chicago, not to mention the luxury box revenues.... While they have been 5-8 in payroll, I think the reality is that they are closer to 12-15 in terms of revenue production. The Twins are ahead of us in attendance by a bit (partially because of fans looking at season ticket packages for 2010), but NO WAY they have close to the same prices across the board that we charge our fans.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 07:34 PM) I wholeheartedly disagree that this trade is a "no-brainer." A "no-brainer" means getting a guy who is awesome now and under control, not someone who doesn't miss bats in the National League. I have faith in Kenny's judgement so I'll wait and see, but this was definitely not a no-brainer. Carter and Allen were basically the same player, raw athletic 1B drafted out of high school with lots of power, except one hit lefty and the other righty. I have no idea why Carter would have a ton more potential than Allen. Allen to me looked like the better player. If Carter played in Birmingham and Allen had stayed in Birmingham then their numbers would likely almost mirror each other. I don't understand how we can just trade Allen and then talk about Fields. Allen is a lot better bet than Fields at this point. Look at it this way...if it does come to pass. Jim Thome (DH, assuming Konerko stays) and Tony Pena >>> Brandon Allen and Octavio Dotel for 2010 They'll just take the money from Dotel and that would be a nice number (maybe a bit higher) to keep Thome around one more year...he certainly doesn't have any reason to want to leave Chicago or go to the NL, so it seems his options are pretty limited. And getting to 600 homers in a White Sox uniform would be another nice story for the franchise.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxfan1986 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:09 PM) Don't like the trade. Relievers are always overvalued, and Pena has been mediocre the last two years. Too steep of a price to pay If you think relievers are overrated, simply refer back to the 06 and 07 seasons, especially 07. KW was forced to pay top dollar for Dotel and Linebrink (both coming off injuries or tired/sore arms) because his 12 LH candidates and the likes of Aardsma and Sisco didn't pan out here with the Sox. Look at it this way...when we let Dotel go at the end of the season, we can use another chunk of money somewhere where we need improvement (CF, 5th starter, 3B, etc.) You can't catch lightning in a bottle with the likes of Hermanson, Politte and Cotts (05) more than once every five years or so, so you have to spend the money on some solid veterans or underachieving youngsters with top stuff unless you want to undermine the confidence of the entire team by blowing an interminable number of games at the set-up stage. We have Fields, Viciedo, Phegley and Flowers (not to mention Paul Konerko through next year)...so I hardly think depth is a problem You don't like giving up his athleticism and LH bat (might we now be more serious about Thome for one more year?), but it's a no-brainer. C. Carter had a lot more potential than Allen and KW traded him, too.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 05:41 PM) a lot of Boston being unsuccessful was due to poor execution. From 1967 to today, and not counting the strike years of '81 and '94, the Red Sox have won fewer than 78 games one time. To put that into another form, the Red Sox have won atleast 78 games in 41 of the past 42 seasons. That's absolutely incredible. In the 3 seasons from '77-'79, they won 287 games, an average of just under 96 wins a season, and didn't make the playoffs once. The Red Sox have always been a pretty good organization, and they've become the best organization in the majors within the past 5 seasons. Having money as they do (though they do their best to stay under the luxury tax cap) doesn't hurt. Agreed. The White Sox are definitely close to the Top 10 now (8-12?), where we were perenially in the 20-25 spot until 2005 changed things quite a bit. It used to be the Braves for many years...in terms of ROI and cost/benefit of the way they run their organization and were so consistent in making the playoffs but just coming up a player or two short because of budgetary constraints after Turner let go of the reins. The Rays are also up-and-coming but having success in that demolition derby division is super hard and even harder to sustain at those attendance levels and minimized revenue generating streams.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 09:01 PM) J.J. Hardy is awful. At least Hart can run. But Brent Lillibridge can run and also play SS.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 09:56 PM) Only problem, it's Poison Oak. Maybe he's starting a humor campaign to coincide with the release of BRUNO....

Fathom is turning over a new leaf I think...

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 09:11 PM) Is Corey Hart suppossed to be a good package? I'll take Flowers, Gilmore, etc. over Hart anyday. Hart is solid, a 20-20 player, but I haven't been wowed by him at all. The only way that would make sense for the Braves is if the Brewers took on the whole contract, as Hart isn't expensive, is he? And he'd be a definite upgrade over Francoeur. But the guy I think Atlanta should be trying to sell high on is Escobar, IMO. I used to like him, but he has soured on me over the past year plus. I agree they should hang onto to Vazquez. If they had some offense, Vazquez could be a serious cy young contender in the NL. Corey Hart absolutely sucks this year. They would be better off with Guillen in ATL. One scout said he has never seen a player as consistently "lost" as Corey this season, although his overall offensive numbers aren't atrocious, they've been far from consistent, like Konerko this season.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 08:59 PM) I believe JPN said Viciedo has been really good defensively at 3B for the past month+ I would hold of on the position change talk right. Obviously, he has been a disappointment this year, but I'll take it. I've said it before, I think 2010 will be a really huge, break out year for him. Looks like Viciedo is hitting an early "wall" like Ramirez did late in 2008. Retherford has really tailed off, too. Taking out Beckham and Allen changes the composition and potency of that line-up dramatically, even though it's still a REALLY strong one. Much longer, grinding season...of course, the weather in the SL is pretty comparable to Cuba, but playing 140+ games is with top quality pitching every day is an adjustment. He was almost at a 700 OPS and has fallen off a bit in the last couple of weeks, but he still manages to produce a ton of RBI's. Gartrell might become a prospect after this season is over, although he's a little old at 25...but certainly much younger than Cook.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 07:54 PM) I think Joba will be their closer. It's amazing how much his stuff has deteriorated due to going from bullpen to the starting rotation. I think DET really knows they're in for a battle now...if they didn't one month ago. The Twins and Sox have really stepped it up. And they will have to be very vigilant about not overusing Porcello and Verlander. Leyland can run up some high pitch counts.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 08:28 PM) If Houston, a team that was in the WS in 2005 offered you the same contract they offered CLee, and you were the same player, you wouldn't take it? I can't blame a guy for taking $100 million. I would assume Houston at that time had just as much of a chance to win as anyone else. Its like the people who ripped ARod for signing with Texas saying he was about the money and not the ring. No other team offered a contract to ARod at that time within $100 million of the one he signed. He would have been a fool not take it. I heard Rick Sutcliffe rip ARod for signing it. The same Rick Sutcliffe that moaned his way out of LA and Cleveland when he played because of money and it certainly wasn't the type of money ARod would have left on the table. I just think of Lee as a player like Albert Belle (although not nearly as potent) whose numbers don't quite equate to wins and losses...just don't perceive him as the type of player who's dying after every loss. Of course, the same rap has been thrown at the likes of Colon (2003), Javy, Garland, Frank Thomas, Ordonez, etc.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 08:34 PM) Catching takes a lot out of you physically. Flowers is a big guy, he's going to take a lot of shots behind the plate. If he ever becomes a huge offensive force, especially considering he probably will only be average at best defensively, they will move him to another position to keep him healthier, and in the line-up more. Piazza was a guy the Dodgers always considered moving, but he balked. There was talk of moving Rodriquez to second as there has been talk about moving Mauer from behind the plate, and those two are or were premiere defensive catchers. Hopefully all the guys like Flowers, and Allen and Jordan Danks and Mitchell and Viciedo pan out. Chances are at least a couple will not. At least we have hope. I think Beckham will be a star and I also think the White Sox veteran players know he will be one too. Having Martinez DH/1B with Shoppach hitting 20+ homers last year from the catcher's spot, that really gave them a potent offense at times, even without Hafner. The one player that doesn't quite seem to have a home on that team is Garko...so I hope Viciedo can be more powerful and productive than Ryan (who, by the way, also kills the White Sox).

Soria is as close to RIVERA as automatic gets (KNOCK ON WOOD/REVERSE JINX CURSE!!!!) Will face Ordonez, Laird and Adam Everett (can't believe I saw him hit a GS in person this year).

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 07:11 PM) If he can be C. Lee Part Two, I'll be thrilled. Many might not like the way he went about it, but Lee has had a hell of a career with regards to offensive production. C-Lee definitely had a huge payday, and we got Pods and cleared the way for all of our under the radar moves that led to the World Series title. Good for both sides, and El Caballo doesn't strike me as one of those players exceedingly distraught over not getting a ring. Always has been more of a me-first player from everything I've seen and read. Sometimes when you clear a Jimenez/Lofton here, a Sheffield there (Tigers), it's addition by subtraction. Same thing with Swisher over the long haul.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 6, 2009 -> 06:58 PM) ? If we acquired/bought the best Cuban pitcher to come along since Contreras, and one with a much higher upside due to his age.