caulfield12

David Ortiz, age 21-26 with the Twins 58 homers in 1477 at-bats=1/25.5 AB's age 27-33 with Red Sox 231 homers in 3259 at-bats=1/14 AB's Pretty dramatic change... I'm not 100% sold on Chipper Jones for the Hall of Fame quite yet, Vlad yes, Pujols until something like this comes out...but it would be a shame, especially the way he's been elevated to God-like status as the MLB icon, child with a disability, non-profit organizations and community/charity work, his Tebow-like Christian faith, etc. It's one thing if A-Rod has gone down, but quite another if Pujols does, too. That might really damage baseball with this generation of fans...yes, baseball is resilient and got past the Black Sox, the world wars, gambling/Pete Rose, strikes, cocaine scandal in 80's, 1994, and it has always bounced back and always will (feel like the speech from Field of Dreams should be inserted here), but this really sucks.

The next question: does David Ortiz come under investigation? Youkilis? Pedroia? I mean, it is pretty suspicious an organization as adept at judging talent with Terry Ryan letting Ortiz go quite easily, then he morphs into a Hall of Fame type player like that magically by playing in Fenway.

Ooops, yeah, forgot about both Yankees and Ichiro, funny...maybe I deliberately forgot them.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ May 7, 2009 -> 10:15 AM) Piazza will, although I am positive he was just as roided up as the rest of them. You mention position players, with what happened with Clemens/Pettite, how many pitchers of the last 20 years can you really trust, other than Maddux? Glavine Smoltz Maddux Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez Trevor Hoffman Mussina??? Longer range, Johan Santana and Roy Halladay, but they have quite a ways to go.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ May 7, 2009 -> 10:14 AM) Ya, I hadn't read it was a female pill. Didn't get that far in the thread. Thats really suspicious. Administering HCG directly after steroid treat-ment helps to reduce this condition because HCG increases the testosterone production in the testes very quickly and reliably. In the event of testicular atrophy caused by mega doses and very long periods of usage, HCG also helps to quickly bring the testes back to their original condition (size). Since occasional injections of HCG during steroid intake can avoid a testicular atrophy, many athletes use HCG for two to three weeks in the middle of their steroid treatment. It is often observed that during this time the athlete makes his best progress with respect to gains in both strength and muscle mass. Those who are on the juice all year round, who might suffer psychological consequences or who would perhaps risk the breakup of a relationship because of this should consider this drawback when taking HCG in regular in-tervals. A reduced libido and spermatogenesis due to steroids, in most cases, can be successfully cured by treatment with HCG. Basic summary...

QUOTE (Middle Buffalo @ May 7, 2009 -> 10:05 AM) I'm pretty sure Canseco was arrested for the same thing. From wikipedia: "On October 10, 2008, Canseco was detained by immigration officials at a San Diego border crossing as he tried to bring a fertility drug from Mexico. He stated the drug was to help with his hormone replacement therapy, needed due to his abuse of steroids." Jose Canseco HCG Former Major League Baseball player Jose Canseco was detained at the Mexican border for more than nine hours on October 9, 2008, for attempting to smuggle human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) into the United States.1 HCG is a natural hormone used by anabolic steroid users. Canseco was charged with one count of misdemeanor drug smuggling on October 14, 2008.2 3

So which position players from the last 20 years are still going to make the HOF? Griffey, Jr. Thomas Thome Biggio Bagwell??? (there have to be some questions about him too)

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 7, 2009 -> 10:01 AM) Cite your sources, please. http://www.steroid.com/HCG.phtml

However, two sources told ESPN's T.J. Quinn and Mark Fainaru-Wada that the drug used by Ramirez is HCG -- human chorionic gonadotropin. HCG is a women's fertility drug typically used by steroid users to restart their body's natural testosterone production as they come off a steroid cycle. It is similar to Clomid, the drug Bonds, Giambi and others used as clients of BALCO. www.espn.com

ESPN....Quinn, writer for LA Times I think. He's going to get into a really messy explanation of his private/sex life and/or there's a direct connection to coming off a steroid cycle, which is how HCG is normally perceived as being used in the performance-enhancement/"muscle" community. In the court of public opinion, there's not going to be much recovery from this IMO.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 7, 2009 -> 09:51 AM) Is it considered an actual "Masking agent"? Nope, it was for HCG. (See detailed explanation above).

It was for HCG...there's pretty much no doubt in the performance-enhancing community the connection. The closer examination of the test results related from an elevated level of testosterone. There was never a positive test for steroids, simply that the information came out that he had been on HCG and that was an automatic violation of the list provided by MLB. In a man HCG stimulates pro-duction of androgenic hormones (testosterone). For this reason athletes use injectable HCG to increase the testosterone produc-tion. HCG is often used in combination with anabolic/androgenic steroids during or after treatment. Since the body usually needs a certain amount of time to get its testoster-one production going again, the athlete, after discontinuing ste-roid compounds, experiences a difficult transition phase which often goes hand in hand with a considerable loss in both strength and muscle mass. Administering HCG directly after steroid treat-ment helps to reduce this condition because HCG increases the testosterone production in the testes very quickly and reliably. In the event of testicular atrophy caused by mega doses and very long periods of usage, HCG also helps to quickly bring the testes back to their original condition (size). Since occasional injections of HCG during steroid intake can avoid a testicular atrophy, many athletes use HCG for two to three weeks in the middle of their steroid treatment. It is often observed that during this time the athlete makes his best progress with respect to gains in both strength and muscle mass. Those who are on the juice all year round, who might suffer psychological consequences or who would perhaps risk the breakup of a relationship because of this should consider this drawback when taking HCG in regular in-tervals. A reduced libido and spermatogenesis due to steroids, in most cases, can be successfully cured by treatment with HCG. Most athletes, however, use HCG at the end of a treatment in order to avoid a "crash," that is, to achieve the best possible transition into "natural training." A precondition, however, is that the steroid intake or dosage be reduced slowly and evenly before taking HCG. Although HCG causes a quick and significant increase of the endogenic plasma- testosterone level, unfortunately it is not a perfect remedy to prevent the loss of strength and mass at the end of a steroid treatment. Although HCG does stimulate endogenous testosterone production, it does not help in re-estab-lishing the normal hypothalamic/pituitary testicular axis. The hypothalamus and pituitary are still in a refractory state after prolonged steroid usage, and remain this way while HCG is being used, because the endogenous testosterone produced as a-result of the exogenous HCG represses the endogenous LH production. Once the HCG is discontinued, the athlete must still go through a re-adjustment period. This is merely delayed by the HCG use." For this reason experienced athletes often take Clomid and Clenbuterol following HCG intake or they immediately begin an-other steroid treatment. Some take HCG merely to get off the "steroids" for at least two to three weeks. HCG package insert states clearly that HCG "has no known effect of fat mobilization, appetite or sense of hunger, or body fat distribution." It further states, "HCG has not been demonstrated to be effective adjunctive therapy in the treatment of obesity, it does not increase fat losses beyond that resulting from caloric restriction. 6000 I.U. of HCG in a single injection resulted in elevated testosterone levels for six days after the injection. At a dosage of 1500 I.U. the pharmatestosterone level increases by 250-300% (2.5-3fold) com-pared to the initial value. The athlete should inject one HCG ampule every 5 days. Since the testosterone level remains considerably elevated for several days, it is unnecessary to inject HCG more than once every 5 days. The effective dosage for ath-letes is usually 2000-5000 I.U. per injection and should-as al-ready mentioned-be injected every 5 days. HCG should only be taken for a few weeks. If HCG is taken by male athletes over many weeks and in high dosages, it is possible that the testes will respond poorly to a later HCG intake and a release of the body's own LH. This could result in a permanent inadequate gonadal function. HCG can in part cause side effects similar to those of injectable testosterone. A higher testosterone production also goes hand in hand with an elevated estrogen level which could result in gynecomastia. This could manifest itself in a temporary growth of breasts or reinforce already existing breast growth in men. Farsighted athletes thus combine HCG with an antiestrogen. Male athletes also report more frequent erections and an increased sexual desire. In high doses it can cause acne vulgaris and the storing of minerals and water. The last point must especially be observed since the water retention which is possible through the use of HCG could give the muscle system a puffy and watery appear-ance. Athletes who have already increased their endogenous test-osterone level by taking Clomid and intend subsequently to take HCG could experience considerable water retention and distinct feminization symptoms (gynecomastia, tendency toward fat de-posits on the hips). This is due to the fact that high testosterone leads to a high conversion rate to estrogens. In very young ath-letes HCG, like anabolic steroids, can cause an early stunting of growth since it prematurely closes the epiphysial growth plates. Mood swings and high blood pressure can also be attributed to the intake of HCG. HCG's form of administration is also unusual. The substance choriongonadotropin is a white powdery freeze-dried substance which is usually used as a compress. Each package, for each HCG ampule, includes another ampule with an injection solution containing isotonic sodium chloride. This liq-uid, after both ampules have been opened in a sterile manner, is injected into the HCG ampule and mixed with the dried substance. The solution is then ready for use and should be injected intra-muscularly. If only part of the substance is injected the residual solution should be stored in the refrigerator. It is not necessary to store the unmixed HCG in the refrigerator; however, it should be kept out of light and below a temperature of 25* C. HCG is a relatively expensive compound. It costs approx. $36 -45 for 3 ampules of 5000 I.U.

I guess they probably won't bring him back if he sits for more than 30 minutes. This weather is even driving Gardenhire batty. He was very vehement in his aggravation about the situation in Baltimore yesterday of starting and stopping games and having no "window" at all to play the game...of course, his team lost, so part of it's sour grapes, but the visiting team almost always seems to get screwed in those games where the home team is leading and they force the teams to get through five innings.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 7, 2009 -> 07:08 AM) Beckham for Halladay. It would probably have to be Beckham AND Poreda to get them to give up Halladay. He's clearly one of the best pitchers in baseball and the "franchise" right now, as Wells and Rios aren't as good as they were thought to be.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/sweetspot/0-2-2...rs--beware.html Interesting stuff. I still can't iamagine many teams passing on Strasburg with the first pick.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 6, 2009 -> 08:33 PM) That's a whole lot of ifs in that scenario. Well, their "ifs" (Robertson, Miner, Bonderman, Willis) are probably a lot better than ours...Contreras, Broadway, Richard, Egbert, Poreda, Marquez and Van Benschoten, assuming Colon can hold up all season.

Yep, you're right, Colon could end up being our most valuable commodity, especially if he can consistently get his velocity back into the 90's, even though he's shown he can still be effective because of his movement and command with essentially an average MLB fastball in the early innings. Of course, the problem is outings like Baltimore where he just didn't have enough on it, and he was missing locations. When you think about it, Contreras and Colon both don't have a full repertoire of pitches like a Vazquez, and that's one of the weaknesses of both at this point in their careers, as they are both primarly "one-pitch" pitchers. Konerko and Dye might end up being attractive...and AJ is more valuable to us (despite his throwing problems) than he would be to another organization, unless they're convinced Flowers can handle the position defensively in 2010. In all likelihood, AJ will start 2010 with the Sox and possible be traded to make way for Flowers in the middle of that season. Of course, if we trade Colon, that means we still have a gaping hole at the back of our rotation. Obviously they will stick with Gavin because of his contract, but they don't have a Plan B for Jose right now, and our best minor league pitchers are still 2+ years away (w/ the notable exception of Poreda). The only other trade pieces we have are Shelby OR Jordan Danks (eventually, one or the other), Poreda (but they don't want to deal a lefty with that kind of stuff and end up like the Mets with the Kazmir move, so they almost have to see if he can be effective as a starter at the big league level) and whoever's left out from the Fields/Ramirez/Getz group, but you would be "selling low" on any of those three and not getting much of a return. If they're playing well, no need to trade them, obviously.

Good post KHP. The only thing I'll disagree with you on is Brandon Inge, he's having an excellent season (so far). He's about as popular as Crede/Rowand/Anderson in Detroit right now... I think Dayton Moore knows what he is doing over there in KC, building that pitching staff. Everyone in baseball thought the Meche deal was insane, and he turned out to be the key in helping to turn the "mentality" of that rotation around. Then he added Davies, Bannister, Hochevar, Daniel Cortes, etc., through draft and trade, when the Royals had a simply atrocious record drafting pitchers in the first round. The Juan Cruz move was really smart to solidify their set-up situation, and Jacobs was necessary to give some ooomph to that line-up, despite his low OBP. Even some of the head-scratchers like Guillen and Bloomquist have turned out okay, and they're doing well without any solid contributions from Gordon, Hosmer or Moustakas yet. Before this organization was mostly known for giving away Ibanez, Damon, Dye and Beltran. I do have some hope because Minnesota under new GM Smith has struggled: 1) They're stuck moving into a new facility (in a horrible economy) without a team constructed for outdoor play 2) If Mauer is more of a DH/1B, then they're in the unenviable position of having to sign him long-term not knowing how healthy he will be...his stats won't be so great for any other position...but it would be devastating to let the homegrown kid walk after losing the likes of Hunter and Santana 3) The Garza-Bartlett for D. Young move was horrible...Young hasn't meshed with Gardenhire, and they've already tried to trade him 4) The Twins have become one of the worst defensive teams in the AL, whereas before they were THE best 5) The Twins' bullpen used to be a lockdown pen from the 7th inning on...now it's a complete mess, and they will forever regret passing on J. Cruz 6) They keep spending money on the likes of Lamb, Monroe, Livan Hernandez and Adam Everett (and this year, Crede) without getting anything in return, when they should have invested that money in keeping Santana 7) It's very possible that none of the players acquired for Santana will work out with the Twins

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 6, 2009 -> 06:33 PM) If Rowand hated him so much, why did he take his calls in 2006 when he was with a different team? Did he have a Zen-like trance over Aaron? Should have written it more clearly...Rowand refused to work with Gary Ward in Chicago (I think Walker was in AAA at that that) and had a great relationship with Walker after he was promoted (to Chicago, to take Ward's job) and then called to ask for his help when he was struggling and getting booed early in his Phillies' career.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/...ds/?pl_id=28064 Dontrelle Willis is showing signs of turning things around in the minors, too. If Perry and Porcello get going to pair with Zumaya and Rodney, and they get Bonderman back and healthy, their offense will overwhelm the Royals. Perry, Rodney and Zumaya can all throw 95-100.

QUOTE (scenario @ May 6, 2009 -> 04:29 PM) Quad Cities?? What are you doing in the Quad Cities? Did you take a wrong turn at Chiang Mai? I had "summer" vacation (summer there is March/April/May) from my teaching job, have to go back on May 27th. Am going to Sox/Twins game on the 21st (Thursday day game). Had the chance to go to Comerica for the first time last Saturday and it's a really nice stadium.

Cowley said something I hadn't heard before about Swisher. That he basically refused to work with Greg Walker all last season...and always deferred to his dad as his swing guru. Another reason it wouldn't have worked for him to come back here. We'll see what happens to him when he cools off in NYC. Said that Crede had also not worked with Walker his first two years of struggling and not sticking with the team (coming off the Southern League MVP) and finally admitted he needed Greg's help. Also, that Gary Ward was pretty much detested by Aaron Rowand ("he set his swing back at least one year") and that he continued to advise Aaron even in 2006 when he was struggling early in his career with the Phillies.

FWIW, it hasn't been raining here in the Quad Cities for at least two hours.

Which was the board that "outed" ncorgbl from chisox.com? I remember arguing with that guy for about four years over there, b4 I knew about any other Sox message boards...sometimes I wonder what happened to him. There was another guy, colsat46, I think he died (he was a military veteran)? The thing I find funny is that the core debate, defending or attacking KW, I've totally changed my viewpoint about Williams in the years since. Memories. I tried posting at wsi for awhile, but one of my best friends had joined and then a group of people jumped all over him for something silly (having to do with music, of all things) and when he got banned there by groupthink/Big Brother/Animal Farm, so I found soxtalk. It's amazing how much more peaceful this sight is...and it's not this "insider's club" like over there where if you don't know anyone who runs the board personally you're in danger of being banned or flamed. Then that whole stupid teal thing...I mean, 25-30% of the posts there were things that most casual fans would never even begin to understand. Leading to the "it's not about Free Speech or First Amendment...it's OUR board" type discussions. Which is fine, they can have it.

Another good comparison (or two) for Broadway would be Slowey/Guerrier/Sonnanstine. And the Garza pick after Broadway (as well as the McCulloch bust) led to drafting Poreda...which was kind of the philosophy in the earlier part of the decade when they had all those arms like Kip Wells, Myette, Barcello, Stumm, Brian West, Danny Wright, Purvis, etc. Also, the realization that while they probably weren't going to take a Porcello, they could now draft lower and use their increased revenues to get a Jordan Danks (of course, part of that signing was due to his brother) and also using it for Viciedo. Floyd wouldn't last long with the Twins. That organization is ALL about first pitch strikes, from the day they're drafted. Of course, they have a higher team ERA than the White Sox, but that's more on Liriano/Baker than the back the rotation.