caulfield12

I disagree somewhat on that one...watching players like Buehrle, DeRosa, Uribe, Iguchi...on a consistent basis, you have a lot MORE of an appreciation for them than you ever would just looking at box scores or stats.

There's rumor/s that there was a "handshake agreement" in place between KW and Gillick, that the Phillies would also pick up the tab for nearly half of the option year, but this was never publicly illuminated from what I've read. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense from the Phillies' standpoint to expose themselves to further financial losses on a "bad" contract, but I've seen this story a number of times from different posters on different boards. Maybe it has become an urban legend by now!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,239430.column Latest Phil Rogers column, about fiscal responsibility of the Dodgers and White Sox this offseason. By the way, is the $92-94 million payroll figure taking into account the money the Phillies are supposedly sending for Thome? If not, our "real" payroll is essentially down in the $85-90 million range. Maybe it doesn't include Viciedo's signing bonus, though...which has been equated by KW to Swisher's 2009 contract in terms of a tit-for-tat replacement. Finally, Rogers mentions 3B Javier Castillo (a name I don't think I've seen once) as a sleeper/darkhorse candidate for the position. I'll stick with Eider Torres as my darkhorse, although he's have to beat our either Betemit or Lillibridge. I'm sure the first one won't happen (since KW is our GM), but maybe the second one will and Lillibridge will end up the starting SS in Charlotte, or starting CF (although, from everything you read, he would be most valuable as a trade chip with other organizations at SS).

The biggest plus about Hudson is his infield defense. If we're going to move him to the OF, he's a "marginal" liability or so-so at $8-10 million per season....better to get Chone Figgins at $5.75 mil if we plan on making Hudson a LF or CF so he can hit leadoff.

As I said earlier, with the extra rest for his arm, I think Jose has a really good chance to get his fastball back up in the 93-96 MPH range again...which will make his forkball the devastating weapon it was in 05/06 and for the first half of the 08 season until injuries took their toll and he tried to pitch through pain. His inability to hold runners, slow delivery and the amount of time he takes to warm-up properly mitigate against any kind of bullpen move. I think he might even end up pushing Floyd back to #5, along with Colon (if he's healthy/motivated).

Kris Benson is going to throw for scouts next Saturday, and in the week after that, it's likely that Mark Mulder -- who, like Benson, is represented by agent Gregg Clifton -- will throw off a mound for scouts. Two advance scouts say that they think Mulder could be the hidden gem of this free-agent class, because if he can restore his arm angle -- and that's been the focus of his offseason work -- he could be a very effective pitcher for relatively little money. www.mlbtraderumors.com

QUOTE (Sec101Row1 @ Jan 16, 2009 -> 10:23 PM) F/A pitchers available as of 1/16/09 Kris Benson (33) Paul Byrd (38) - Type B, offered arb Roger Clemens (46) Josh Fogg (32) Freddy Garcia (33) Jon Garland (29) - Type B, offered arb Tom Glavine (43) Charlie Haeger (25) Livan Hernandez (34) Orlando Hernandez (43) Chuck James (27) Jason Jennings (30) Jon Lieber (39) Braden Looper (34) - Type B, not offered arb Rodrigo Lopez (33) Pedro Martinez (37) Mark Mulder (31) John Parrish (31) Odalis Perez (32) Oliver Perez (27) - Type A, offered arb Andy Pettitte (37) - Type A, not offered arb Sidney Ponson (32) Kenny Rogers (44) Curt Schilling (42) Ben Sheets (30) - Type A, offered arb Kip Wells (32) Randy Wolf (32) - Type B, not offered arb Kris Benson (33) 3-4 teams are showing interest Paul Byrd (38) - Type B, offered arb (is now talking about mid-season comeback with playoff team, supposedly turned down $8 million for one year to spend time with family) Josh Fogg (32) Freddy Garcia (33) Mets/White Sox/Rangers Jon Garland (29) - Type B, offered arb Tom Glavine (43) post-op, will go back to Braves or probably retire Charlie Haeger (25) Livan Hernandez (34) is there any way he's really just 34? Orlando Hernandez (43) is he 50 now? Chuck James (27) once a top Braves prospect who was rushed, along with Kyle Davies Jason Jennings (30) Jon Lieber (39) Braden Looper (34) - Type B, not offered arb KW should be looking at him closely Rodrigo Lopez (33) Pedro Martinez (37) KW should be looking at him closely Mark Mulder (31) if the medical reports are positive, another low-risk/high-reward type guy with lots of playoff experience John Parrish (31) Tigers are looking at him as swing man and spot starter Odalis Perez (32) Oliver Perez (27) - Type A, offered arb Mets? around $30 million for 3 years Andy Pettitte (37) - Type A, not offered arb will either retire a Yankee or accept their $10 million offer for one season Sidney Ponson (32) is he really just 32, seems like he's been around forever? Kenny Rogers (44) will probably retire Curt Schilling (42) ditto Ben Sheets (30) - Type A, offered arb, the most interesting pitcher left on the market today, will get around $12-13 million for one year Kip Wells (32) Randy Wolf (32) - Type B, not offered arb, another second-tier starter who had great 2nd half, looking at $7-9 million, or $15-16 million/2 years Yadel Marti (29) CUBA Tony Armas, Jr.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 17, 2009 -> 05:30 AM) You mention someone doesn't "know the game well enough", and you cite some crazy stats that have a pitcher who was : 11-12 4.84 ERA for a team that won 90 games 15-8 3.74 ERA for a team that lost 90 games 12-16 4.67 ERA for a team that won a division worth almost $30 million a year for those 3 years. In other words, if he was paid what your crazy stats think he should be paid, Javy Vazquez basically should be the highest paid player in baseball history on the basis of a 38-36 record with a 4.40 ERA. You even have his 2006 performance worth more than his 2007 performance. I figure I have a little bit of knowledge when it comes to baseball, and just by looking at stats and the games, I would think Javy was much better in 2007 than he was in 2006. Jon Garland on the other hand was 18-7 4.51 ERA 10-13 4.23 ERA 14-8 4.90 ERA According to your fine stats and "knowledge of the game" Garland's 42-28 record and 4.54 ERA over the same time (during the 3 seasons Garland pitched 11 total fewer innings than Vazquez and gave up 4 more earned runs) those numbers are "worth" $20 million a year less than Vazquez. An average of 3 2/3 innings a year and 1.3 runs a year, is worth $20 million . In fact, pitching on the same team in 2006, Garland's 18-7 4.51 vs. Vazquez 11-12 4.84 is worth $12 million less. LOL. Nice stats. According to you 14-8 4.90 ERA worth 1.92 million if its Jon Garland, 12-16 4.67 ERA worth 27.84 million if you're Javy Vazquez. I don't think there are many that understand that game. Scott Boras has his eye on you. If he ever takes over for Trump on "The Apprentice", you would have to be a favorite. That has to be from either Vazquez's agent, or the person inside the Atlanta FO who will go down in flames along with Frank Wren if Vazquez flames out and Flowers and Lillibridge both become starters or All-Stars...and in 2011/12, Rodriguez and Gilmore.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jan 17, 2009 -> 08:30 AM) I bet that he once shook hands with Ponce DeLeon. Maybe you're thinking of Jose DeLeon... Hahaha.

I think Jose will come back sometime in May or early June when the weather and conditions are ideal/perfect. They'll keep him in Arizona for extended spring training. We now also have an insight into why KW hasn't spent money on the FA pitching market. He had reasons to be more optimistic than most of us were about Contreras coming back in 2009. I actually think he might be better than a 4/5 guy...with that extra time of rest/relaxation for his arm, I expect that his fastball will be back at 94-95 MPH more consistently. That power fastball will help to better set up the forkball and offspeed stuff as well. So what we've done is traded Javier Vazquez and his $11.5 million for Colon ($1-3 million), Flowers, Santos Rodriguez (power lefty), Gilmore, Lillibridge and IN ESSENCE, Marquez/Nunez/Viciedo/Betemit. We can revisit the results after 2010 (LOL), but we've traded two players most Sox fans didn't even want on the team going into the offseason, and now have: Colon and Marquez (two candidates for 4th/5th starter) Flowers, hopefully our future All-Star catcher Santos Rodriguez, a left hander with a lot potential another Iowa kid who might turn out just as good as Sweeney (Gilmore) Lillibridge (could be our starting CF, 2B, or SS) Nunez (power righty out of the pen that KW thinks will have an impact) Betemit (our supersub who will be much more cost-efficient than Punto or Uribe) And taking Swisher off the payroll gave KW the flexibility to bring in Viciedo, who could have the biggest impact of all We've gotten rid of 2 players we didn't want and replaced them with 9 players, and we've lowered our payroll at the same time...I think that's the mark of a GM that saw the future clouds rolling in and beat the market...now we'll see what the Yankees can get for Nady or Swisher! Not only that, but we now have 8 young/affordable players that fit better into our future and help refresh/revitalize our organization moving forward.

I still think the simplest explanation is that we've had very few high first round draft picks since the time of Ventura, Thomas, McDowell and Alex Fernandez. Of course, we can look draft by draft and see obvious examples (Broadway over Garza), Royce Ring, Jason Stumm, Honel, etc. The one really big impact bat that simply didn't develop was Borchard. If we could have had a power-hitting, lefthanded RFer from 2003-2008, it would have made a huge impact on this organization, but alas, it wasn't meant to be. The irony is that we were able to unload Borchard for another team's unrealized first round potential in Matt Thornton, just as we'd earlier found our lefthander of the first half of the decade in Damaso Marte. Both turned out to be high impact trades that were barely blurbs in Baseball America.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jan 16, 2009 -> 10:34 PM) Greg Walker was quoted I believe last season saying that going into the 2006 season the Sox knew Brian had huge problems with his swing but chose not to do anything about it, instead letting him try to just get by on natural ability. So the GM knew he wasn't ready yet still didn't acquire a veteran replacement, then the hitting coach chose to ignore Brian's problems, and then Ozzie threw him under the bus for not hitting, even after he said repeatedly in ST that all Anderson had to do was play defense. I'm not making excuses for Brian, but the Sox set him up to fail. They knew he wasn't going to hit and they knew he needed to put in a lot of work in order to hit, and instead of having Brian work on his swing in Triple A and trade for or sign an adequate replacement - the Sox spent I think something like $7M that year on Cintron, Mackowiak, and Widger/Alomar when that could have gone to a CF - they instead decided to go with a plan that they already thought was going to fail. I hope the BA in 2006 experiment was part of an old, bad philosophy that no longer exists and that the Sox have learned their lessons by now. If you don't think your minor league hitters are capable of hitting Major League pitching then don't call them up. Bring in a cheap veteran instead if you have to. But I do remember that they were even saying into June/July that it didn't matter how well he hit....as long as he played good defense. You expect a first round draft pick with a PAC 10 background to be on a pretty fast track. The White Sox perhaps overestimated him (making the trades of Rowand, Webster, Reed and Young and keeping Anderson)...but he SHOULD have been ready. The fact is that it seems Brian Anderson might ALWAYS have that problem with his swing, just like Borchard did, and just like many feel Fields MIGHT have, although his 2007 results were better than anything BA produced...certainly over an extended period of time. If nothing else, the White Sox have learned that drafting "athletically-gifted/raw" players like Borchard, Brian West, Fields and Anderson perhaps wasn't the best approach...that projecting them, instead of targeting stars like Reed (2nd round) and Beckham, was too much of a hit or miss type of strategy.

It's down to the Mets, Rangers and White Sox. Yankees are out. Looks like he is even willing to take a minor league deal, as long as they give him an opportunity to make the major league rotation out of spring training.

Nunez or Jimenez (from Blue Jays) DJ Carasco (everyone keeps forgetting about him) Eider Torres (utility INF) Armstrong/Stewart/Miller (one of them will have a breakthrough) Russell or Wasserman

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 16, 2009 -> 06:38 PM) Pie won't be released. Some team will give up something for him. As far as the criticism the Cubs are getting on here for "giving up" on him, when you are trying to win how long of a rope do you give a guy? If Lillibridge, Getz, Fields, Owens start out hitting .220 in 50 AB, I'm sure many here including me will be calling for a replacement. The one area I may think differently on, is the Cubs should have some room to work with in their division. You'd think they would want to give Pie another shot at least before cutting the cord, unless they are totally convinced he will never hit. Its not like the Reed Johnson/Fukudome platoon currently planned for CF is of all star calibur. The argument against that is someone like Alexei Ramirez. He was hitting closer to .110 than .220, yet KW and Ozzie kept showing faith in him and eventually it was rewarded. When Anderson had the same opportunity in 2006, he never really took advantage, and they had done everything humanly possibly to take the pressure off of him.

QUOTE (scenario @ Jan 16, 2009 -> 03:03 PM) Except that Pie is 3 years younger than Brian. Seems bizarre that the Cubs would stick a fork in the guy at 23 years old. Then, on the other hand, you have organizations still willing to give Corey Patterson a shot. The NFL is more merciless...think Maurice Clarett.

http://bucco-blog.com/Pittsburgh-Pirates/2...ates-blueprint/ Interesting, in-depth article about building an organization from the bottom up, about the Pirates' "new" plan for restructuring (not rebuilding!) Lots of insights for minor league fans to consider, particularly those critical of the Sox minor league system.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 16, 2009 -> 10:23 AM) Payrolls in the AL (money in millions) 1. New York ($207) 2. Detroit ($137) 3. Boston ($133) 4. Chicago ($121) 5. Anaheim ($119) 6. Seattle ($117) 7. Toronto ($96) 8. Cleveland ($78) 9. Texas ($67) 10. Baltimore ($67) 11. Kansas City ($58) 12. Minnesota ($56) 13. Oakland ($47) 14. Tampa Bay ($43) Payrolls in the NL (money in millions) 1. Mets ($137) 2. Cubs ($118) 3. Dodgers ($118) 4. Braves ($102) 5. Cardinals ($99) 6. Phillies ($97) 7. Astros ($88) 8. Brewers ($80) 9. Giants ($76) 10. Reds ($74) 11. Padres ($73) 12. Rockies ($68) 13. Diamondbacks ($66) 14. Nationals ($54) 15. Pirates ($48) 16. Marlins ($21) I imagine these numbers are skewed a bit by deadline trades and what have you else, because I merely got them from B-R, but it paints a relatively clear picture nonetheless. The Sox also did not pay quite a bit of that payroll thanks to money from a couple a teams (the Phillies for sure and it seems to me that there's another team in there too). Of those teams, which have really been the most active in adding payroll? To me, I see the Yankees, Red Sox to some degree (bringing in multiple cheaper free agents and signing guys to extensions), and that's it in the AL. In the NL, I see the Mets, Phillies, and Braves, though the Dodgers have brought a couple guys back at decently expensive extensions. I don't mention the Cubs because while they've been active, they've also had to dump players for cheap while picking up money in the deals as well (namely DeRosa and Marquis). Also, as you mentioned, the Sox did spend some money to get the move to Glendale expedited as well, and that has to be figured into the equation. The Sox definitely aren't alone. The Phillies' offseason has basically been status quo....they let Burrell go (not offering arbitration, perhaps wisely it seems), and he was making $15 million per season, but might have offered the worst free agent position-player deal of this offseason to Raul Ibanez, a glorified DH. Other than that....released So Taguchi (just picked up by Cubs I think), traded for Ronnie Paulino, resigned Moyer (status quo) and the very speculative contract for one season for Chan Ho Park. Hard to tell where they've done anything but treaded water, and perhaps regressed with the expected decline over Ibanez's insane contract. The White Sox payroll is a little bit misleading if you include Griffey's money, as well as Thome's (without the subsidies)...

Well....everyone forgets we also spent that money on Viciedo...it would be like we had the largest first round draft picking signing bonus in MLB history, essentially. Although he does basically cancel out Swisher for this year. Which teams are spending like crazy? Well, you have the Yankees, Mets and Braves....who else? The Red Sox are being very "prudent/careful" with their money, too. Angels, likewise. Before all is said and done, the Dodgers will probably bring back Manny Ramirez, I'm guessing. $50 million for 3 years, maybe? The Cardinals are a perfect comparison with the White Sox...the two teams have been acting very similarly over the last 5 years or so, with the White Sox finally catching up on lowering payroll. The Dodgers almost let Furcal get away...and were shying away from most of the big name free agents. The Angels were only interested in TEX, and not enough to fight with the Yankees and Red Sox when it came down to it. The Mets and Yankees both have new stadiums. As mentioned, Red Sox are very very conservative in spending this offseason. Then you have the Cubs. Even the Phillies, coming off a World Championship, haven't done much or spent wildly like we did in 2006.

Important fact to remember about Colon...Jose Contreras will be back around the All Star break. If Colon does not eat himself to death we will be fine. Maybe Ozzie will have Ramirez room with Colon. If Ramirez eats half of all of Colon's food, all year, we can kill two birds with one stone. If Colon can loose 25lbs and Ramirez can find it....its all good.....Double Carne Asada Burritos for everyone. The Dodgers are interested in Young. The Dodgers just resigned Furcal....sooo Young must be willing to go back to 2B when he started. The White Sox should send Josh Fields to anyone that will take him....Figgins leading off with Young batting second would be a great table setting tandem....Speed Kills in Minnesota and Tampa...it will work on 35th Street too. The White Sox should keep Dye. Send Pauly to the Angels. The Sox get Figgins and bat him lead off playing 3B. Kenny Williams ....Listen up...send Josh Fields to Texas for Young, bat Young 2nd and play him at 2B. The money saved by unloading Pauly will cover Young’s cost. Figgins contract is settled at 5.7 million ...so with the arbitration done...lets light this candle. Oh yeah...have Dye play first base....and finally hire Ozzie's neighbor Abreau to play RF and bat 5th, behind Figgins, Young, Thome, Dye, Abreau , Quentin, Pierzynski, Ramirez and Owens. * Speed Kills Baby...Getter Done Kenny I think this is either The Big Hurt or Greedy trying to be funny. The hilarious part is that even with Michael Young, Figgins and Abreu, we still have Jerry Owens batting 9th and playing CF. Maybe Anderson would be a much better fit with that line-up, actually... 1) Young's contract down the line when he inevitably declines 2) Dye playing 1B without any experience 3) Replacing Figgins all over again 4) Convincing the Rangers' fans that they could live with a return of Josh Fields for perennial All-Star Michael Young...that might be the straw that broke the camel's back....after losing Galarraga, Chris Young, Danks and Volquez.

BIG HURT....let me give you this scenario and tell me what you'd do for 5th starter. 1) Go with the likes of Poreda/Marquez/Richard/Broadway/Egbert/DJ Carasco 2) Sign Jon Garland for $24-27 million over 3 years 3) Sign Oliver Perez for $30 million over 3 years 4) Sign Randy Wolf for two seasons at $15 million 5) Sign Andy Pettitte for one year at $11-12 million 6) Any other option (Braden Looper, Pedro Martinez, Jason Jennings, Mark Mulder, Jon Lieber, Sidney Ponson, Livan Hernandez, Tom Glavine, Josh Fogg, Jamey Wright, Kip Wells, Kenny Rogers, El Duque, Tony Armas, Jr...now that I think about it Armas, Jr. is a bit intriguing too, to match with Cooper) 7) Cuban defector Yadel Marti for $6 million over 4 years 8) Bring in Paul Byrd at mid-season I underlined my choices, along with Sweaty/I look like the Rock Freddy Garcia. So if you gave me a healthy Contreras with a 95-97 MPH fastball in August, then Colon/Garcia/Mulder/Armas, Jr./Marti, we would win the World Series, lol. MAYBE. That's why baseball is so interesting, particularly this offseason.

It's not a matter of being right or wrong....being in the majority or minority. Last year, if you'd have predicted we would have won the AL Central, you would have been in the minority, and people probably would have been laughing at your optimism. The White Sox don't OWE us anything...we choose to be fans or not...if enough fans make the choice not to care or become apathetic (kind of my attitude now about Iowa Hawkeye basketball), then something has to be done. If we hadn't won the World Series, if we hadn't won the division in 2008...well, then there would be some justification in criticism. There would be MANY MANY legitimate areas we could have all pointed out throughout the offseason (like Twins fans could do) about why we missed the playoffs by one game after leading for most of the year. In this economic climate, I think it's more logical to pay Yadel Marte, Colon ($1-3 million), Garcia and Andruw Jones the same amount we would pay Jon Garland. You, probably would rather have Garland than those four, am I correct in stating that? Just a difference in philosophy. The same things will come into play between the Red Sox and Yankees. If you were a Red Sox fan, would you be equally furious that your team was signing question marks in Smoltz/Penny/Kotsay/Baldelli/Saito for a fraction of the cost of the "sure things" that are Sabathia, Burnett and TEX??? Or are you simply saying we shouldn't be in the same position the Red Sox are trying to compete with the Yankees? That we should dominate the AL Central each and every season because of our inherent, built-in advantages as the largest media/population market of those five??

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,6904519.story (Sox and economy, KW quotes) http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,7096588.story (Colon deal, KW/Coop quotes) Watch the 4:43 KW video conference http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,4788987.story Spring training facility progress/Reinsdorf tour

I can see it now.....Colon, Garcia, Andruw Jones and Marti (3-4 years)...all for less than the price of ONE year of Garland, Oliver Perez, Wolf or Andy Pettitte. Not bad at all.

If we did sign Colon, Garcia and A. Jones, how are we doing anything differently from what the Red Sox are doing with Baldelli, Saito, Kotsay, Smoltz and Penny? Their moves are somehow brilliant while KW's are an act of desperation and cheapness?