caulfield12

QUOTE (PlaySumFnJurny @ Dec 6, 2008 -> 08:36 AM) True; but other than Pods (and maybe Contreras and Floyd), none of the above were acquired in exchange for a player of Jenks' value to the current squad. Most were acquired for cash. All suckage is relative. If we trade Bobby, we need to be fairly certain to get players back who can contribute now, not guys with mere potential. I'll agree with one thing, I don't care about prospects anymore. We need to get someone who can contribute immediately to the starting rotation, or, worse case scenario, a couple more potential closers that are AAA/1st/2nd year service players. The Brewers can't give us any starters, unless we realistically believe they'll give up Parra...which wouldn't make much sense, because you have no need for an elite closer if you have so many holes in your rotation, opportunities to save meaningful games would be somewhat limited. The other place to look is CF, and there you're talking Hart, Billy Hall, Gwynn Jr (as a fourth/fifth outfielder...which we don't really need, already having Owens/Anderson/Wise/Lillibridge). Trading for Hall is illogical, that doesn't save you any money at all, assuming Jenks will go up to around $5 million or so this season from $500K.

Mr. Richie Allen, Here's one thing nobody's really talking about, the elephant in the room. What if the economy will be even worse going into the 2010 season, and all signs are pointing towards that eventuality with the recently announced losses of over half a million jobs and predictions of 10% unemployment rates heading into 2010...wouldn't Cabrera be much better off RIGHT NOW taking whatever he could get in a guaranteed 2-3 year deal, instead of playing through another season at age 34/35? He could possibly get injured or degrade his future market value, even by missing 6-8 weeks of the season, yes? What would he actually be able to do to increase that value, as he would be a year older, and the chances of him putting up significantly better offensive stats at this point in his career aren't very good...not to manage his range is decreasing each and every season. Everyone wants to think they can predict the future and the market, and his agent might have the idea some here do of waiting it out another year for things to get better, but the odds are better than 50% right now things will be exponentially worse.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 6, 2008 -> 06:38 AM) Furcal hasn't ruled out joining the A's, but he wasn't willing to take a paycut to do it. While the A's were willing to give him the four-year deal he desired, the proposal didn't top $10 million per season. With the Giants also perhaps out of the mix, Furcal is left without an obvious suitor at the moment. He'll get his money, but he might have to settle for three years. As for the A's, they'll begin looking elsewhere for upgrades. They need at least one starter -- Randy Johnson is a possibility -- and they could always add another big bat, perhaps even Adam Dunn. From rotoworld. Makes you wonder what kind of contract is available to OC. Furcal is more of a speed-based player than Cabrera, who has proven much more durable and reliable. If you had the choice of Furcal at 3 years and $39 million or Cabrera at 2 years for $20 milllion, probably 20+ MLB GM's would go with the certainty of Cabrera over Furcal. Only the truly big market teams can take the risk of a Furcal deal going bad on them. OTOH, you have the likes of Jack Wilson and Adam Everett garnering a prettty good amount of interest, and maybe even Uribe will as well, eventually. There's definitely two different players in this market, the teams with money to spend and teams like the Tigers that are in cost-cutting/budget conservation mode. If you're looking for a SS, though, Cabrera's the best option of the available FA SS's to quite a few teams. The other reason Furcal is drawing a lot of interest is because of his Type B status.

Jason Marquis for 4th/5th starter anyone? Wittenmyer adds that the Cubs would be willing to eat as much as $4MM of Jason Marquis' $9.875MM salary to move him. If the Cubs were to add Jake Peavy after that, they'd be around $138MM. They could then squeeze in their coveted left-handed hitting outfielder. source, mlbtraderumors

You could say "they suck/ed" about 1/2 the players the White Sox have brought in over the last ten years...I'll highlight some particular names for you. Contreras D. Hermanson Politte Thornton Jenks Marte Uribe Gavin Floyd Alexei Ramirez Esteban Loaiza El Duque Tadahito Iguchi Jermaine Dye (not that he sucked, just was a big risk coming off injuries) Javier Vazquez Scott Podsednik Octavio Dotel Miguel Olivo Sure, there will always be plenty of Julio Ramirezes and DeAngelo Jimenezes to go around, Sisco, Aardsma, MacDougal, etc., but we have a pretty darn good track record of maximizing the potential of many of the prospects/suspects and undervalued veterans we've acquired in recent years. Sure, Nick Swisher was a pretty big disappointment, but he wasn't a big enough problem to keep up from winning the division, thanks to the likes of DeWayne Wise.

It all depends if he has a deal set in place to move Dye somewhere for starting pitching. If so, then he can go after CF/leadoff position. Which I guess would be Hart and/or Richie Weeks as possibilities...Gallardo and Parra would be great, but I don't think a relief pitcher gets you a starter back in any book, especially young/affordable starters in a mid-market, having lost Sabathia and Sheets, they can't deal any pitching to us IMO. Billy Hall would be another possibility, but how many "versatile" players (like Chone Figgins) who don't have one best position and can't play above-average defense do we really need? Then you also have to consider the transition to the "tougher" AL, etc. Hall also comes with a higher price tag, so I'm sure they would be interested in dumping him or possibly Hardy. Although with Hardy, it HARD(L)Y makes any sense if we don't know about Cabrera's fate (bringing back Uribe and signing O-Cab worked last year, but...) and we need to be able to tell our players what we expect out of them (in terms of where they will play, Beckham knows he's going to the minors to play SS until they tell him differently).

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/S/Chris-Stewart.shtml 9 for 40 over the past two seasons with the Rangers and Yankees. Two more years in AAA, basically.

If I were Hahn and it went that far, I would put my figure around $9.5 million. OC would counter around $11, you're right. Then it would be a battle to assail his pedestrian OPS and OBP numbers. They would counter with the fact that he was being asked to bat out of his natural 2 spot and that he was 2nd in the GG voting for SS. Let's just hope the Dodgers give him at least $20 million over 2 years and he passes. There's one more factor here, his pretty large ego. If his archenemy Renteria can be banished out of DET and still get an average of $9.25 million for two seasons, Cabrera will want to one-up him to show he's still the best/most valuable Colombian SS.

On the conference call, a question was posed similar to what we've been debating here for seemingly years... Isn't it possible to get the same level of production (.500 record, 200 IP, 4.3-4.70 ERA) out of a cheaper pitcher? Well, KW SUPPOSEDLY believes Marquez is in the best position to do that...for whatever reasons he has. I do hope we add a lot more than Van Benschoten into the mix with Marquez, Broadway, Richard, Poreda, Carrasco (will he be in pen, starting, AAA or elsewhere?) and possibly Egbert.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Dec 5, 2008 -> 04:26 PM) With Flowers, Dubler, Inoyue, and the Ghost of Donny Lucy still in the system, I’m not sure backup catcher is that big a deal for the future. It was confirmed in an e-mail that I received just now from Mark Gonzales that both Corky Miller and Chris Stewart have signed with the ChiSox.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 5, 2008 -> 01:16 PM) He can't be traded until June 15 without his consent. The teams looking at Adam Everett aren't looking to add the salary figure Cabrera will net from arbitration. So he will go to a place where he wants, the White Sox will get no draft picks, and will have to eat salary assuming of course, he isn't as good as Chris Getz, Brent Lillibridge and (gulp) Jayson Nix, as KW claims. 1) We signed Viciedo, Beckham and Danks....that, in and of itself, is more or less the equivalent of 3 first round draft picks, and two Top 10 draft picks in Beckham and Viciedo 2) KW and the scouting department, up until this last draft at least, have been much better at identifying undervalued but high upside players in other organizations, rather than drafting them out of HS or college 3) You add Marquez, Jimenez, Nix, Lillibridge, Nunez, Flowers, Gilmore and Santos Rodriguez, that's two more first rounders right there, and lots of upside/potential, especially from Flowers...whatever happens, the world will not end over these draft picks. I mean, we traded Ray Durham for Jon Adkins and lost a draft pick there (largely because KW and JR felt that the compensation system was going to be changed that offseason, so they would theoretically get nothing back and they also wanted to see Willie Harris at 2B, so they saved a couple of million in salary as well).

And, ironically, Juan Uribe on the market might actually affect Cabrera too...a team might offer him $5 million instead of Cabrera twice that, or more.

Well, we've been in involved or similar reverse situations in the past, with Jason Dellaero (to pitcher) and Brooks Kieschnick (to pitcher)...maybe reversing the process will go our way this time. If only he could catch!!!! That would be his fastest path to the major leagues.

Why would we want to corner the market on every middle infielder in the world? It would be nice if we could have JUST ONE CFer who can leadoff to go with all these guys...although Lillibridge could be an option out there, unproven and untested as he is.

It would be pretty irresponsible to market Marquez and Richard/Poreda as the best answers for the 4/5 spots when you're increasing ticket prices 11%. I can't believe the Yankees would so easily let go of ANY pitching prospect that had a chance to be "pretty good" so quickly, especially with Mussina retiring, and the struggles of Kennedy/Hughes, etc. They also let Rassner go, I think. Seems strange we can see something they can't, but it's hard to argue with successes of Floyd, Danks, Loaiza, Contreras and Thornton. OTOH, you have Sisco, Aardsma and MacDougal. If not and they aren't successful on the field after doing that, it would be a huge problem. I think Sox fans are willing to give KW the benefit of the doubt at this point. They know he wants to win as badly as they do. How many times as a White Sox fan have things looked bleak, if not desperate? We're still operating largely in the "era of good feeling" after the 2005 season, and the 2008 year was a plesant rebound. I mean, if we had lost to the Twins in the one game playoff, would this "reloading" phase be an even bigger problem? The fact of the matter is that the majority of clubs are going into cost-cutting mode, in anticipation of future revenue losses, and it's hard not to blame them. I mean, if 60-65% of Americans own stocks and houses, and these respective asset values have gone down from 15-65% in one year and coming up with cash (from home equity loans) for tickets is difficult and putting everything on the credit card (like Christmas shopping) is no longer an option, can we expect the White Sox to spend wildly when there's really no historical precedent for this 2006-2008 Sox spending spree? Many believe the US government needs to spend/invest and cut taxes to stimulate growth, but the situation for a major league ballclub isn't quite the same analogy.

There's such a thing as a "pinch runner" (think Rodney McCray back in the 1980's), well why not a defensive replacement in the 8th or 9th inning for AJ? Makes quite a bit of sense, especially with the trouble some of our relievers have holding guys on...he would nullify some of that, although Jenks apparently has a burning desire to let every runner who reaches have free reign to get over to 3rd. Of course, the big problem here is numbers. If Miller can't play 20-30 games per season (full games), you're going to wear down AJ. It, for the moment, appears that Betemit and Lillibridge will be on the roster, along with some combination of Wise/Anderson/Owens and the back-up catcher (Miller/Armstrong/Stewart?) I don't think we'll carry three catchers, but with Quentin healthy, the need for Wise is lessened considerably (especially if Owens is healthy). Still, it's nice to have a lefty bat with some power in Wise. And perhaps Lillibridge wins 2B and Getz is the other bench player, along with Betemit. Just not sure how they feel about Getz (or Lillibridge) not getting consistent playing time...especially coming off 08, it would appear Lillibridge needs to re-establish his confidence in Charlotte. But KW seems to think he can be ready to go right out of the chute.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...rtnerId=rss_cws Now there's even an article up at the White Sox site, based on the ESPN "rumor." Too funny.

The problem is that after what the M's gave up to acquire him, they're not in a position where they will be forced to do "a Swisher" and dump him back on the market. They can afford to be patient with this guy, and either keep him or do whatever is possible to re-establish his value. I know their new GM, with Bedard and Beltre being two of their best trading chips (Ichiro and Felix aren't going anywhere), is going to ask for AT LEAST #2 starter return if they were to trade him, and that's something no team will give up right now based on 2008.

Maybe KW and the FO has concerns about something with Josh's swing (like Borchard, and Crede early in his career) and they prefer to deal with a player who has more of a track record. I don't know. Perhaps there's also a thought to platooning Betemit/Cantu at 3B and then some combination of Betemit/Lillibridge/Getz/Nix/Cantu at 2B? I'm really scared about the possibility of Ramirez and Cantu being our DP combination. I think Cantu would be acquired largely to play 3B. And at least he's not over 30, he's a younger player in the prime of his career. At any rate, it's nice that we might have some options. I know there are many posters here who believe that Fields won't be the starter at 3B again, any more than Anderson will be given a true shot to win the CF job.

The question of the day...what, if any (and you know he WANTS to say something) will Ozzie's comments be regarding the possibility of Cabrera coming back again?

Let's say for argument's sake Cabrera did stay with the White Sox. That gives us one more option in Lillibridge to put out there in the CF competition with Owens and Anderson (and perhaps Taveras). It provides flexibility to move Alexei into CF, if Lillibridge looks good again over at 2B and wins the job outright. I know many sources have Getz and Lillibridge rated around equally based on 2008, but Lillibridge has a lot more upside potential, whereas Getz as viewed skeptically by many as a utility player (although the same is being said about Lillibridge, in all fairness.) The bottom line is that it's nice to have 2-3 options for most positions around the diamond...with the exception of the starting pitching and possibly catcher (although Armstrong has a better upside than keeping Toby around at $2.25 million), we're setting pretty, especially if Beckham, Viciedo and Flowers arrive sooner rather than later. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...sp&c_id=cws Good (but boring) summary of where the organization stands now heading into Winter Meetings...commitments for $82.2 million, plus Jenks will probably go up to $5 million from $500K and the White Sox have to decide whether to offer DeWayne Wise arbitration. Nothing that has happened on the Hot Stove this week has helped Rafael Furcal's market. The Giants and Cardinals are now out. And the Braves are no longer interested in moving Yunel Escobar, now that they've dealt away Brent Lillibridge in the Javier Vazquez trade. The Tigers are exploring only low-budget options. So at this point, Furcal's choices appear to be the A's or Dodgers, with the Orioles lurking as the most likely mystery team. from espn.com Looks like Cabrera or Furcal would be ending up in LA, Oakland and possibly Baltimore or Toronto.

I think it's a toss-up. On one hand, Cantu has a track record, although he (like Gomes) completely fell off the map and into disfavor down in TB. Both are never going to be be considered above average defensively, although Cantu has more flexibility and has more of the overall skill set of a middle infielder than Fields does certainly. In terms of cost-benefit, Cantu's getting more and more expensive each and every season, whereas Josh Fields has a ways to go before he even reaches the arbitration 4-6 years of his career. Maybe the plan is to play Cantu at 3B, with Viciedo in RF. I don't know. I don't think Cantu has quite enough pop to play 1B on a regular basis...only occasionally, like Betemit did with the Yankees. The biggest concern is from the defensive side...it's hard to see how swapping Ramirez for Cabrera will be a net gain defensively (and might be a big loss), Uribe/Ramirez were/are better than anyone we'll put out on the field at 2B (although Lillibridge might be the best of the bunch, and comparable over time)...then you have huge concerns with Fields, Viciedo or Cantu playing 3B. That's the looks of a very shaky infield defense. Thankfully, Garland's no longer around, but Marquez and Richard are more likely to have balls put in play on the infield than Vazquez, a traditional power/fly ball pitcher, was. Based on that 29 homer, 95 RBI bounceback season, Cantu's going to get a huge increase in arbitration from the Marlins if he stays there...think of him just like Jenks in this regard. So, for the Marlins, it would be all about economics, like the Olsen/Willingham move.

The latest renovation of the roster is more appealing, even if many executives believe Williams is overrating Flowers, whom they regard as a serious liability behind the plate. Williams did well recouping the kind of talent he sent to Arizona to acquire Vazquez three years ago (center fielder Chris Young was the headliner). Flowers, Gilmore and Santos Rodriguez are all high-ceiling guys. Brent Lillibridge could be next year's Quentin: a talented player acquired when his value was low after a bad year. It makes you wonder how much Williams will be offered for Dye. from new Phil Rogers article at chicagotribune.com/sports "Just because I'm talking about playing a more youthful team doesn't mean we're sacrificing our goal of trying to win the division this year," Williams said after trading starting pitcher Vazquez and reliever Boone Logan to Atlanta. "Along the way, if they show you they can do certain things or cannot show you, you've built up enough depth to make an adjustment. Right now we'd be among our competition in the division." mark gonzales, trib.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Dec 5, 2008 -> 12:20 AM) There are some people around who are saying the economy is going to get a whole lot worse than it is now and not just magically recover under the hand of the Great Obama. It's kind of funny, because there is all this love talk about Obama coming out of the Sox camp and yet at the same time there are some indications that ownership itself doesn't believe "he can." Of course the Sox could deal off Dye and maybe Paulie too, then turn around and sign a high-priced FA like Dunn or something to kind of cover it up a bit, but it's not totally out of the question that the Sox look to potential $5M/year or less options at spots they decide to fill with veterans. Well, the thing is, almost EVERY business in the country can be looked to cut costs in anticipation of having a rough go the next couple of years...that provides the Sox cover, whether they believe in Obama or not. Bill Clinton, whether you believe him or not, said the economic problem should be able to overcome in 15-24 months...if they "make all the right decisions." Well, there's no guarantees on that happening. The thing is, nobody knows. You can take all of the last decade's Nobel Prize winners in Economics and you'd have 10 dramatically different opinions on a solution. I just think they're being prudent...and that we probably were over budget about $5-15 million last season and we're going to make it up this season, partially with the raising of ticket prices. I think it's better to be careful then to get into a real desperate situation like some teams, where they basically have to auction off talent to keep their organizations afloat. The Twins are going to have to open their new stadium in 2010 in the middle of something resembling the Great Depression, for all intents and purposes, and Carl Pohlad was already stingy before. With Thome, Konerko, Dye and Contreras all leaving the books in the next couple of seasons, Buehrle would be, far and away, our highest paid player.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 4, 2008 -> 08:13 PM) I think he can't be traded until June 15th unless he gives his approval. But if the one year deal is more attrative than what he's being offered, KW would probably have to eat some of the contract and get garbage back to move him. Cabrera is NOT Uribe. The Tigers basically kicked Renteria out of town, and he still signed a guaranteed 2 year deal. For Cabrera at 34, 2-3 years is better than just one. And he has no interest in returning, likewise with the FO and Guillen having him back.