caulfield12

They wouldn't. Unless they got another piece in return...and no, not D. Wise or Brian Anderson to replace Burrell. It would have to be something like Swisher and Dye for Victorino and an upper-tier/major league ready prospect.

All depends on KW feeling that Poreda's peak value is now and that he will never add a secondary pitch...and that there are many teams and scouts still viewing him as a front-line starter (like a 3) and not a lefty set-up guy. That's a lot of suppositions. The thing is Poreda is young/cheap/high potential. That's the best type of player (especially LH pitcher) to have in your depth chart. So in order for us to give that potential up for "veteran certainty" (higher quality than Swisher obviously), then you better get a game-changing type of player for your line-up like a Brian Roberts or Carl Crawford-ish level of player that the Sox can afford to add to the payroll...yet in his late 20's (prime) and not the downside of his career. At least Swisher, at his age, that was the right idea for turning the roster over a little bit in the direction of younger players.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 09:42 AM) As usual you make some good points. One thing that I would about the Sox and Kenny's current situation is that IMO he can afford to deal both Javy and Jenks in a market starved for good, reasonably-priced pitching as well as two sluggers in a market starved for good, reasonably-priced hitting. The wrong move here IMO is trading just one player and expecting it all to work out just fine. Notice how after '06 Kenny dealt 2 SP for 5 pitching prospects. Danks and Floyd worked out, Gio and Masset were used in other deals, and Rasner is slowly but surely developing in the minors, although he's going to need to hurry up and develop if he wants to stay out of the Rule-5 draft. So in that deal we've gotten value out of 4 of the 5 players acquired so far with two of them mainstays. The right move, to me, is trading at least three, preferrably 4, of those tradeable commodities. All we need to think about right now is Danks and Floyd. If Jenks, Vazquez, Dye/Thome/Konerko/Swisher were on another team, would anyone seriously consider giving up one of Danks of Floyd for that kind of player? If we can make 4 deals, and come away with 8-12 prospects, then we only need three of those to join the big league club at some point. If we concentrate on pitching and can come away with a couple #2/#3 starters and either an everyday position player or a dominant reliever, we've already IMO added value to the organization. Kenny does trade his prospects, so also consider that some of what we would acquire in such a scenario would end up landing us other veterans, preferrably younger ones who better fit into the equation. Prospects are the easiest things to deal in this game because you can trade prospects with 25 teams (omitting divisional rivals) instead of only 5-6 depending on need, league, salary requirements, contract length, payroll, and ownership issues. Above all, this team needs to completely revamp its minor league organization as well as continue towards a new, younger core. We can't contend for the next 10 years without doing that. People always get worked up about trading for prospects, but I think it is important to understand 1) the conditions of the starting pitching market right now where the difference between a veteran who provides 200IP with a 4.50 ERA and a prospect who provides 170-180IP with a 4.80 ERA can be as much as $15 million per season, 2) that the age of our old core forces transition, 3) the impact our new core has had on our team, and 4) the importance of the Sox baseball version of the 2010 plan. We don't need to pay Javy to be a #4 when we can target a couple young #2/#3's who have a downside of a #4 at $22M less over the next two seasons; we absolutely have to get younger with our sluggers and doing it now for value instead of letting them walk could benefit tremendously; we can afford to lose dynamite in the lineup due to the emergence of Quentin and Ramirez; and finally, why not potentially add a few more pieces to the 2010 crop of talent that, if we hang on to it, could include Beckham, Danks, Poreda, Shelby, and Allen? Every one of those players, if they stay healthy, should end '09 in Double A or Triple A. Not much new to add. I guess KW has to be thinking, which one of the five younger players is most likely to regress....Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Ramirez and Jenks? I would include Thornton and Buehrle with these first five...those are our 7 most valuable properties. Then you have Konerko/Dye/Swisher. The arguments back and forth about Jenks have been interesting, to say the least. I almost might put Thornton on the market if I'm convinced I can get a similar performance out of Poreda, and trading Thornton coming off a strong season when he looked like one of the best lefty relievers in the game. The question is how much can we get for Jenks, and how confident is KW in 1) finding a replacement via trade or FA for Jenks (ala Juan Cruz or Jeremy Affeldt types) and 2) how confident he is that Dotel/Poreda/Linebrink/Russell could get the job done without Jenks at the back of the pen? Still, when it comes down to, it doesn't seem NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to get Vazquez's .500 record and 30+ starts out of a pool of 3-5 pitching prospects who would be competing for 1-2 spots in the rotation (in addition to Richard, this scenario is with Poreda replacing Thornton)...then you have the wild card of a Contreras comeback, the possibility he could even be tried as a closer. Or bringing back El Duque, lol. Just kidding...well, sort of. Or Denys (not Baez) Reyes. Then you also have around $23-25 million or whatever with Vazquez's deal off the books to invest in places of need like 3B (Blake, Kouzmanoff, Atkins, etc.), 2B and CF. Maybe they do get Taveras and somehow pull off the deal for Roberts OR sign Orlando Hudson by saving money/prospects by picking up Taveras for a Broadway type of prospect. Then you can devote the prospects you get back for Vazquez, Jenks/Thornton and Swisher/Konerko/Dye to what you are proposing...rebuilding that foundation and depth of quality pitching that we've lost since 2005. I can't imagine what would have happened had we tried to hold onto Garcia, McCarthy and Garland...KW seems to have the right feel for who to deal and when and is on something of a roll, almost impossible for it to continue with everything breaking right with the Big 4 (CQ, Alexei, Floyd, Danks).

Do we really want any part of Street as a replacement for Jenks, or would it just be increasing the pool of talent (by committee) to go along with Dotel, Thornton, Poreda and Linebrink? On paper, those five make for a pretty imposing pen...maybe the greatest in baseball history, lol.

QUOTE (easyw @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 07:35 AM) Trading Jenks is a great idea... for all the reasons that have already been mentioned. I'd love to see another World Series for the Sox in 2010 or 2011, and that ain't gonna happen with the likes of Jenks and Dye on the roster... SELL HIGH! Not sure I understand this line of reasoning. Weren't Jenks and Dye two of the biggest reasons we succeeded in 05 and 08? I mean...it's great if you can get guaranteed major league ready players/prospects for your veterans, but we've been on the wrong and right side (Todd Ritchie and Freddy Garcia) of such deals when 2-3 players either flame out or you end up cutting into your depth and the one player you acquire is either injured or non-productive (like Nick Swisher). We're usually in a veteran dumping mode in seasons like White Flag, 2001/2002/2004/2007...it is very rarely that we have traded star players in their prime under KW. Carlos Lee is one of the few examples...we know all about that deal and the various arguments/rationales behind it. Usually, we've let players go via free agency or made "small" moves for negligible payoffs at mid-season.

Can Cubano locate him? According to the reports, he plays all three infield positions...he reminded me of a younger Nomar Garciaparra, at least that was my recollection...maybe more in terms of his body type/frame.

My mistake...this week. Well, I think we're still looking at the weekend or next week for official news...as Torres tries to drive up the competition ala Boras. Actually, we might be better off if he's in so-so shape/condition, because we know what he can do, but other teams might be scared off by the rumors of his work ethic and attitude being lackadaisical the last couple of years in Cuba as many have argued that he has regressed a bit from the Omar Linares comparisons. I wish we could have the national team's SS to pair with Alexei...I can't remember his name, but he made a big impression at the WBC 18 months ago.

if he's with the Sox...lots of good quotes. http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,2907010.story Some other interesting stuff floating around that a few may or may not be aware of. 1) Cora is a finalist for the Mariners job 2) Viciedo has scheduled a series of workouts/showcases in the Dominican Republic next week...so it doesn't look like any signing of the kid will take place for the next 7-10 days, if not 2 weeks.

QUOTE (daa84 @ Nov 10, 2008 -> 06:38 PM) oakland got an absolute haul in that deal.....Eveland and Smith were basically solid rotation guys with low 4 ERAs....they also got Gonzalez, Aaron Cunningham (who had a really great year and has established himself as maybe as good of a prospect as gonzalez) Chris Carter (who is one of the best power prospects in baseball...39 bombs last year) and even best of all Brett Anderson who is probably a top 20 pitching prospect in baseball Aaron Cunningham, who profiled as something of a cross between Aaron Rowand and Reed in terms of talent and tools? I think he'll be a major leaguer, but I don't know that he's going to have a significantly higher impact than, say, Ryan Sweeney. If he starts hitting 25-35 homers per season, but most don't see that happening.

Fukudome to play CF for the White Sox if the Cubs sign Abreu for RF (and Hendry eats a huge portion of the contract) 3B Casey Blake (a lot of people are expecting Orlando Cabrera and Blake to sign with the Twins, I will believe it when I see it happen) LHP Jamie Moyer (although I think he's better off staying in the NL) SP Kenshin Kawakami (KW seemed to have a pretty good relationship with Iguchi and Takatsu) LHP Oliver Perez 2B Mark Grudzielanek or bringing back Ray Ray Durham for a couple of seasons SP Freddy Garcia LHP Jeremy Affeldt if the White Sox trade Jenks (giving them three of the best lefty relievers in terms of stuff in all of MLB, w/ Thornton and Poreda) RPH Paul Byrd Trade Konerko/Swisher as part of a package for SP Jonathan Sanchez (SFG) SP Braden Looper SS Edgar Renteria (maybe Ozzie could bring out the fire from the other big leaguer from Colombia) SP Koji Uehara Nick Punto as supersub...if he doesn't get a starting job elsewhere RP Juan Cruz (possible closer?) CF Mark Kotsay LHP Odalis Perez (for fifth starter) SS Felipe Lopez (kind of like the Nix move, bringing in some more competition and improving the depth) Rocco Baldelli, Joe Beimel, Doug Brocail, David Eckstein, Tom Glavine, Jerry Hairston Jr., Eric Hinske, Chan Ho Park, Jason Isringhausen, Cesar Izturis, Greg Maddux (will retire in all likelihood), Tomohiro Nioka, David Weathers

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/11/jon-heymans-fre.html (O. Cabrera at #13) Do we have any interest in Renteria? Would the Tigers eat part of his contract AND trade him within the division? Unlikely...but I think they are pretty desperate to move him nonetheless. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/11/2009-top-50-fre.html

8:43pm: Ken Davidoff says the Yankees had "extremely preliminary" talks with the Sox regarding Swisher. Something to keep an eye on if the Yanks don't sign Mark Teixeira. Additionally, Davidoff says the White Sox are not anxious to unload Vazquez. 9:42am: According to Dave van Dyck of the Chicago Tribune, the White Sox are aggressively shopping Javier Vazquez and Nick Swisher. Additionally, the Sox reportedly have interest in Rockies center fielder Willy Taveras. GM Ken Williams didn't offer much info regarding possible trade talks. Van Dyck speculates on names like Luis Castillo or Julio Lugo for Vazquez, seemingly suggesting Vazquez has a terrible contract too. Hard to figure out, as he remains a useful mid-rotation starter. Sox Machine wants the abuse of logic to stop. Van Dyck wonders whether the A's or Red Sox would have interest in Swisher, based on some tenuous Moneyball connection. Joel Sherman believes Swisher could be a fit for the Yankees due to his versatility. Williams replied in the negative when asked whether Swisher would play center field for the '09 White Sox, which could be interpreted multiple ways. Van Dyck says the Rockies wouldn't have interest in Vazquez or Swisher, but rather a young pitcher like Lance Broadway for Taveras. from mlbtraderumors.com

That's looks like something out of a Rock football movie or The Longest Yard remake with Adam Sandler, lol.

That KW had the right idea with trading Rowand, just the wrong execution in who he ended up holding on to...

Not disagreeing with the trade at all. Rowand is not worth the kind of money he's getting now, certainly not in the AL. It was the idea that at the time, we had a ton of depth (Reed, Young, Anderson, Rowand) at that position...we just picked the wrong player to hold onto. I guess if KW didn't ask for money back on the Vazquez/Vizcaino deal, we might have been able to get away with giving them Anderson instead of Chris Young. We'll never know.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 08:54 PM) I was talking about trading Marte after the 2003 season. He hadn't played for Ozzie yet and was probably the best left handed set-up man in baseball. As it turns out, he was a guy who was much more comfortable playing for a quiet Manuel than he was with Ozzie. After 2003, Marte was one of the best pitchers on the White Sox. After 2004 ended, Shingo was one of the best pitchers on the White Sox. If they were traded then, it turns out it would not have been a mistake, which is the point I was making. Jenks future success is not promised. I don't think KW will trade Jenks, but it wouldn't be a total shock for the reasons I have stated before. Sure...and we should have traded Cotts and Politte after 2005 as well...and Crede. Marte, at the time, was not only one of the best LH relief pitchers in baseball...he had a great contract. Of course, hindsight being 20/20, it's easy to reach the conclusion that KW should have traded him...or Borchard. Heck, we had so many first round draft picks and pitching prospects go down with injuries...we might have traded the likes of Parque, Barcelo, Danny Wright, Matt Ginter, Jason Stumm, Jon Rauch (who was at one time close to the best pitching prospect in the game), etc. Just think if we had traded both Borchard and Rauch at their peaks? Well, it's impossible to predict the future...just like picking stocks. All we can do is make educated guesses. Apparently, KW's educated guess to hold onto Brian Anderson and dump Aaron Rowand was the wrong one. Not the idea itself, but the player he felt could replace Rowand. Maybe BA will redeem himself, but I doubt it happens in Chicago. We shall see.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 08:35 PM) Is this supposed to say "on fire"? Just curious. let's just go with "en fuego"

QUOTE (Cubano @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 07:09 PM) More teams after Viciedo: The Boston Red Sox, Oakland Athletics, Cleveland Indians, Seattle Mariners, and Los Angeles Dodgers, among others, have all reportedly expressed interest. As long as Viciedo doesn't become a star with the Indians, Twins or Red Sox, I'm okay if he slips out of KW's grasp. The Indians are really desperate too, after Marte went down (who hasn't hit anyways)...unless they went to move Peralta over and keep him there. I wonder if there's any "smoke" to all those Konerko to Anaheim rumors...? We'll see. Moreno has a ton of money, but even he knows you have to mix in a Kendrick and Morales here and there to keep the payroll down somewhat, as well as keeping the organization from becoming too stagnant/veteran-laden, like our 2006 team I think.

QUOTE (Cubano @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 06:54 PM) I root for the Nats for two reasons: 1. They are close to me. I dislike the O's. 2. The Nats were a major player in the cuban market back in the days. I root for the Sox now. I appreciate a lot that The Sox gave a real chance to Ramirez to play straight from Cuba at the MLB level. I think you would appreciate even more the 2nd and 3rd chances they gave to El Gran Titan de Bronze to get his act together. Another thing I found funny...in the new James Bond movie, there's a Bolivian secret service agent being played by a Ukrainian actress, Olga Kurylenko. How the director expects us to believe someone who's half-Bolivian (in the movie) and grew up in Bolivia would speak English with a pronounced Russian English is beyond me (the explanation is that the mother was Russian, the father Bolivian and part of the military junta). In fact, I think her few ventures into Spanish were better than her English pronunciation. I guess they couldn't find any Hispanic actresses!

Marte pitched his way out of Chicago the final months of 2005. Ozzie simply lost confidence in him, and the situation that El Duque had to bail him out of in BOS with the bases loaded and no outs was the final straw. Mackowiak was never meant to be a starting CFer, fwiw. The day the trade was made, I was pretty ecstatic that we managed to get THAT much for Marte...who is/was analagous to Thornton. The main difference is that Thornton throws about 3-4 MPH harder and has that easy, repeatable motion scouts fall in love with. Marte had a better second pitch, that slinging "slurve/offspeed" pitch could be very effective at times. That said, Thornton would be worth twice as much to any other team. Some would definitely consider him as a closer...you couldn't say the same thing for Marte at then end of 2005. He's actually rebounded much more effectively than I thought, based on where he was at the end of our World Series season. I thought he was pitching his way out of the majors the way things were going. And the Marte/Guerrier original trade was one of KW's best, "signature" moves in the early part of his career. Ironic that Guerrier went on to become a very effective set-up guy for our main rivals but didn't impact the Pirates much at all...similar to Josh Rupe, Aaron Myette or Kevin Beirne in that sense.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 05:19 PM) I am thinking we have our own options for a sub OF'er. Not to take anything away from Baldelli, but why spend a few million on a reserve when you have good players at the ML minimum? Well, I think $2.25 million for Baldelli would be a better allocation of resources than the same amount for Toby Hall. At least Baldelli theoretically could get into games more frequently and could be used as a pinch-runner more effectively than Wise or Anderson. Just saying. However, yeah...$2.25 million could be spent a lot of other ways too. So could the money we are spending on MacDougal. But I better there are a lot of teams out there (think LA Dodgers with Pierre and Andruw Jones to start) with exponentially worse contracts on the books than MacDougal and Contreras. Many thought the size of Juan Uribe's contract was sort of a waste until it suddenly wasn't the final two months of the season. That turned out to be one of KW's smartest moves (maybe by accident, maybe intentionally...although I can't think he knew 1) Crede would be reinjured and 2) Fields would dramatically regress) of the offseason, and it looked like the most illogical/ill-considered at the time. Then again, KW probably signed him with the idea of starting at 2B, not having a true gauge for how good Ramirez would become as early as June, 2008.

Well, theoretically, it would make as much sense to look at some of the best Chinese ping pong and badminton players. The mechanics of the smash in badminton are fairly comparable to throwing motion for a pitcher...and the racquet/contact speed for birdies leaving the racquet is the fastest of any sport in the world, 140-180 MPH at initial contact. Ping pong probably uses more hand-eye coordination and agility than most sports I know, although it's more similar to tennis/racquetball than baseball. Or the Pakistani and Indian jai-alai players. Heck, any elite jai-alai players...remember Jeff Conine? He was a world-class racquetball player. The White Sox just need to get creative. I'm not opposed to expending resources in a non-traditional markets if it unearths just a couple of hidden gems.

As the Cubs step up their pursuit of San Diego Padres ace Jake Peavy, they might be playing themselves out of the bidding for one of their top offseason priorities, Baltimore Orioles leadoff hitter Brian Roberts. Sources say the Padres are seeking a three-for-one or four-for-one swap for Peavy, getting a package of young talent that is expected to include at least one major-league-ready pitcher. That could cost the Cubs some of their best trading chips in their pursuit of Roberts. Chicago Sun Times

QUOTE (beck72 @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 10:28 AM) Dotel isn't Vazquez-like. He's coming back from injury and hadn't pitched the number of innings he did this year since IIRC, 2004. Vazquez hasn't had any excuses. Dotel had every reason to wear down like he did at year's end. Yet I don't think I heard word one from Dotel about using that as an excuse. Dotel had Tommy John surgery in the middle of the 2005 season, on June 1st of that season to be exact. Typically, it takes one season to return, and then you should be fully recovered or even stronger the following season, which would have been the second half of the 2007 season. He had a shoulder strain in 2007 and missed about six weeks (August 10th-September 22nd), but I think any recovery we see from Dotel should already have happened 3 1/2 seasons since the surgery. That can't be an excuse any longer IMO. What you see is what you get, pretty much.

The Marlins moves were more about slashing salary and positioning about the stadium issue. While trading Konerko or Vazquez might be "salary-based" moves in a way, trading Jenks, Dye and Swisher (all reasonably priced, I'll wait to see Swisher's next season to say he's overpaid) aren't as much as they are recalibrating the White Sox engine? Interesting discussion, but highly unlikely. Maybe a couple of pitchers, but we'll never get 3-4. Although I have no doubt that KW would like to get to a position of strength again when he had the luxury of McCarthy and El Duque and then added Vazquez to the mix. Right now, our fifth starters candidates: Richard, Poreda (doubtful for 09 as a starter), Broadway...I guess you can add DJ Carrasco and Horacio Ramirez as options 4/5 to that list as well.