caulfield12

QUOTE(rangercal @ May 20, 2007 -> 09:32 AM) Did anyone know this? From Wikipedia I guess as insurance, but Thome coming back? Then again, we still don't have a LFer...KW goes to the Everett well 3 times? Are both Alomars far behind? Maybe we should stick Michael Jordan or Oscar De La Hoya in LF.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 20, 2007 -> 09:34 AM) The Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, and Cubs could all go after Ichiro....we're not winning a bidding war against those teams. I doubt Zell would countenance such a move, because the Cubs' revenue is pretty much maxxed out for the year already, it's hard for a media conglomerate to do a cost-benefit analysis and justify adding another $15 million per season. I'm not even convinced that a Zambrano deal will ever be done, now. The Yankees would want to replace Abreu, Matsui, Damon? Not sure about that one. They might get the M's to take Cabrera, but they have nobody else the M's would want. They're not going to trade Philip Hughes or Cano, so there's not really anything of interest besides Cabrera on their roster, and that's far from enough to get a possible Ichiro deal through. Every team needs pitching, and I think Rasner might be on the DL now, after getting hit by a ball up the middle yesterday. I would guess the Red Sox, Mets or Angels.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 20, 2007 -> 09:31 AM) You conveniently left out Sean Burroughs. There's not many scouts that think he'll be at the caliber of the four guys you listed there. Burroughs was a (high) first round draft pick. There aren't the same expectations with Sweeney. Nobody (but Hawk) expected 25-30 homers right away, and that was just his "company line" rah-rah comments about a Sox prospect. Burroughs is more compact like his dad...he's not rangy and athletic like Sweeney appears to be. I would be shocked if Sweeney didn't hit 15 homers per year and put up RBI numbers like Crede (2002-2004)...the only question being, is that good enough for the White Sox in this division?

QUOTE(beck72 @ May 20, 2007 -> 09:21 AM) A few things: Maybe I missed the poor pitching by both the bullpen and starters that essentially tanked the sox 2006 preseason hopes. That difference maker bat was never available last year or in the offseason [what other team besides the yanks improved much at the deadline?]. The sox need a 1-4 type young hitter to build around. Though signing a guy like Ichiro for 4, 5 years could work just as well. That would open up things for the power guys like PK and Thome. And allow the young guys like Sweeney, Fields and Anderson to work themselves into the league. But when the sox key hitters like PK, Dye, Iguchi, Crede, AJ, Uribe all can't hit at the same time, all the deals in the world won't help them win. Most of those bats will wake up. Hopefully in time for the sox to go on a run with the pitching. If not, it'll be a long summer. Who really cares about taking the city and Mariotti? Making the playoffs on a year in year out basis is the only thing that matters. The sox weren't made for a dynasty after 2005. But KW did improve the 2006 team with Thome and Javy. And he has now positioned the sox to win each year with the pitching. The Cubs aren't important. If they want to spend $400 million who cares? The long term outlook for the cubs is dreadful. They'll be saddled with horrible contracts and be unable to fill glaring holes. The sox should be far more consistent, win more games in the reg. season and playoffs in the next decade than the Cubs--which is all that matters. Long-term, those contracts will catch up with them, especially for Soriano. Short-term, they did what they had to do to bring the momentum back to their side. And I would still be saying that, if we were looking to sweep them this afternoon. They're simply in a much easier division, and the Brewers are the same number of games up on the Cubs that the Tigers and Indians are on us, except we all know how good those Tigers and Indians teams are. It would be an interesting discussion...which would be the better to team to own right now and for the future? Both farm systems are pretty abysmal. The Cubs have a better bench, the bullpens are a dead heat arguably. The Cubs are getting offense from their entire team, with the exception of Izturis, who has been replaced adequarely for now by Theriot. You would have to take their infield over ours. Catcher is about even. If the outfields play as expected, the Cubs have the advantage there. The biggest question marks are what happen to Buehrle and Zambrano...they have Hill, we have Danks. You have to give our starting rotation the advantage due to the depth, and the fact that Lilly and Marquis looked more like 4th/5th starters than aces coming into this season.

QUOTE(gosox41 @ May 20, 2007 -> 09:19 AM) I read this article and just shook my head. Imagine if the Sox kept most of these guys. Phil would be writing about how KW wasn't aggressive and allowed this team to get old and expnsive. Bob As you note, he conveniently skipped over Thomas and Everett, I'm sure due to their ages. None of the guys he listed were "non-veterans," with the exceptions of Young and McCarthy. When it comes down to it, it's going to amount to: McCarthy/Young versus Gio, Floyd, Masset, Danks and whoever we eventually acquire for Vazquez. Essentially, KW's betting on his "two for one" philosophy being the best call on these pitching deals. That if one is a bust, there's still a chance the other one will excel. And that's our hope, that two of those five pitchers (along with Adam Russell) will make it and establish themselves as members of our rotation.

QUOTE(kyyle23 @ May 20, 2007 -> 09:07 AM) If strength is his weakness and he has a hole on the inside of his swing, then it isnt a sign of Walker changing his swing. He isnt getting fooled on weak outside breaking balls and trying to rip/pull every inside fastball, which is Soxtalks calling card to Walkers "technique". To me, Sweeney looks more like he is "in between". He is looking for an inside fastball and getting an outside fastball, looking for an outside curve and getting an inside curve. He is taking his lumps like a rookie does, with a few good at bats sprinkled in between. The great thing about Sweeney is that he watches pitches so well. You can see the wheels turning when he gets his first pitch. This also could be his detriment, as he is probably outthinking himself at the plate. Honestly I think Sweeney is progressing normally, we are just overanalyzing him because we want instant production because he is our bright spot of the farm system. I was joking about Walker. I have no inside information on any swing changes that Walker has tried to incorporate that have changed Sweeney into a prototypical Sox "lift and pull" hitter. I think he'll be fine. The only question is how good he will be...Garret Anderson, Olerud, Grace, Palmeiro (before the roids) are some of the comparisons that have been made. He's only 22 and learning on the go. I think he will figure things out. He still has (by appearance) good at-bats, even though the results aren't what we would like. He's not just up there flailing away like Anderson or Terrero, or even Iguchi and Uribe.

"I wonder what would be happening now if Williams and the front office had had more faith in some they cast aside. Aaron Rowand, Neal Cotts, Geoff Blum, Luis Vizcaino and Freddy Garcia and youngsters like Brandon McCarthy and center fielder Chris Young. Maybe even the high-maintenance man, El Duque." The Vazquez trade has been a bad one and could get worse-Chris Young's OPS for Arizona was higher than that of all but one Sox regular after Friday-especially if the Sox wind up losing Buehrle and Garland because Vazquez and Contreras were easier to sign. more easily signed." No mention of Thomas and Everett, even the incomparable Willie Harris and Timo Perez? Geoff Blum? SERIOUSLY? Well, Rowand would be playing CF when he wasn't injured. Chris Young would be struggling against the much tougher AL Central pitching. The defense would be much better, but we wouldn't have a leadoff hitter within sight. Cotts was pretty bad 2 out of 3 years here, but I guess we were supposed to have faith he would be better because it's an odd year in 07 (like Saberhagen's success every other season). Vizcaino was the 6th man for most of 05 and MIGHT have been the 4th or 5th in 2006, but I doubt he would have become the primary RH set-up man and prevented us from having to trade for Riske and MacDougal. I guess Rogers assumes that his NL numbers automatically translate to the White Sox. Garcia, El Duque and McCarthy would probably have the same record as Danks and Vazquez, although odds are VERY high at least one of those first two would have gone down with injuries. At least we have Danks and Gio Gonzalez, LH starters are the most valuable commodity in baseball. I don't think that the theoretical Sox "stand pat" team would have finished at 90 wins last year or much higher than .500 this year. The only major loss is Chris Young, but we might get someone just as good or better (or we might not) if we flip Vazquez for prospects.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 20, 2007 -> 07:23 AM) It would be, but not in the middle of May with the light week the White Sox have had. He didn't say the bullpen hasn't sucked, just that they hadn't as much as the offense, which could be true, but thats like someone telling you that you are better looking than Ron Karkovice. Usually I agree with his observations, but I'm not buying this one. I think the bullpen is short. Sunday Sox lose 11-1 bullpen 3 IP 7 R Monday off Tuesday off Wednesday Sox win 5-3 bullpen 2.2 IP 1 R Wednesday Sox lose 8-1 bullpen 2.1 IP 4 R Thursday Sox win 4-1 bullpen 2 IP 0 R Friday Sox lose 6-3 bullpen 1.2 IP 3 R Saturday Sox lose 11-6 bullpen 1 IP 6 R That's 12.2 IP and 21 runs allowed for the bullpen in a week. A couple of blowouts and a couple of days off. There are absolutely no excuses for this kind of performance. Actually, the excuses have to end for any of the White Sox failures now. And they have no tired/weary excuse when they have the least amount of innings pitched of any bullpen in the American League, probably the entire major leagues. QUOTE(Damen @ May 20, 2007 -> 03:45 AM) Ozzie's an embarrasment. I'm tired of this sh*t. Only he could make Mike North look like a genius. And only he would think Masset is best starter for Sunday. F*ck. This weekend sucks to be a Sox fan. Our current bullpen is an embarassment. Friday, everyone complained we used MacDougal. We use the pitcher that everyone wanted then (Aardsma) and he also sucked. We're back to April/May of 2006 for all intents and purposes. The bullpen has cost us 6 games, and that's at least 3 too many. Realistically, we very easily could be 23-16 with the WORST offense in baseball. And yet Ozzie's a horrible manager. Who does everybody want to get that's ripping on Ozzie? I've yet to see one credible candidate named to replace him. Please stop with the Joe Girardi stuff, I know he's the current "savior" in waiting in the broadcast booth. And you would be starting who, in your imminent wisdom? Gio Gonzalez? He's been cuffed around recently. Haeger? Floyd? Arnie Munoz? Our choice for starter today is the least worst of the lesser of two evils.

QUOTE(beck72 @ May 20, 2007 -> 08:30 AM) That's too simplistic. The sox offense wasn't the cause of their problems in the 2nd half of 2006. Sure they didn't hit as well as in the 1st half. Yet they were 9th in runs scored, 12th in avg, 13th in OBP, 2nd in SLG and 2nd in HR's Post ASB in 06. This year, they are last in everything except HR's which they are 8th. Now is the problem the sox are too old, they are washed up and need to be dismantled? the sox do need to get younger/ different type hitters while still being productive. But if they can't hit come the deadline, yes, trade some pieces. But they started well both in 2005 and 2006. They deserve a chance to get their bats to awaken. Anyway, what is the alternative until the deadline? There were few deals to be made in the offseason that could have helped the sox get younger/ faster/ more productive. What deals could have been made other teams wanted outrageous bounties, such as for Baldelli. Or guys like Pierre, Roberts or Matthews might help in the short term but will probably be huge mistakes in the near future. All this is going to take time to sort out, unless the sox tank and go 10 games under by the break, which I don't see happening. If they are around a playoff birth, I'd expect some deals to be made to improve their chances. KW sees as well as us fans that Dye and Mark might not be around in 2008 and the time is this year to make a run for the playoffs [though at the same time that won't jeapordize the long term prospects of the sox winning]. There is no alternative. The best option is someone like Willy Mo Pena, who severely hurts our defense, and we already have a DH in Dye playing the outfield as it is. I'm sure if you broke down 2006 into three segments (April/May...June/July...August/Sept.) you would see the incremental drop-off, followed by the sheer cliff drop into an abyss or chasm from which we can't seem to extricate ourselves without going outside the organization. We can all agree Pierre, Roberts and Baldelli would have been disasters, if they replicated what they were doing with other teams or their injury status. Matthews was the Gil Meche of the outfield contracts, a real head scratcher. I think we would have crucified KW had he made the same move that Stoneman made over in LA. We can't go out and get a couple of veteran/proven relievers and add a hitter or two without sacrificing our future. Who could we possibly trade off our current 25 man roster that wouldn't hurt us just as much as helping us. Which leaves the only move trading Gio Gonzalez or Adam Russell, and MAYBE Fields. If we do that now, why wouldn't we done it in 2006 when it might have been enough to spark that offense back to life? That team was arguably in a much better position to get to the playoffs than the 2007 White Sox are. I'm not a Mariotti fan by ANY stretch, but his harping about letting the Cubs take the city back and how KW missed a golden opportunity in 2006 was spot-on. Maybe the only thing he's been right about in 5-10 years. QUOTE(beck72 @ May 20, 2007 -> 08:35 AM) That's too simplistic. The sox offense wasn't the cause of their problems in the 2nd half of 2006. Sure they didn't hit as well as in the 1st half. Yet they were 9th in runs scored, 12th in avg, 13th in OBP, 2nd in SLG and 2nd in HR's Post ASB in 06. This year, they are last in everything except HR's which they are 8th. Now is the problem the sox are too old, they are washed up and need to be dismantled? the sox do need to get younger/ different type hitters while still being productive. But if they can't hit come the deadline, yes, trade some pieces. But they started well both in 2005 and 2006. They deserve a chance to get their bats to awaken. Anyway, what is the alternative until the deadline? There were few deals to be made in the offseason that could have helped the sox get younger/ faster/ more productive. What deals could have been made other teams wanted outrageous bounties, such as for Baldelli. Or guys like Pierre, Roberts or Matthews might help in the short term but will probably be huge mistakes in the near future. All this is going to take time to sort out, unless the sox tank and go 10 games under by the break, which I don't see happening. If they are around a playoff birth, I'd expect some deals to be made to improve their chances. KW sees as well as us fans that Dye and Mark might not be around in 2008 and the time is this year to make a run for the playoffs [though at the same time that won't jeapordize the long term prospects of the sox winning]. Ichiro wasn't available. Abreu only plays RF and wound't have replaced Dye. And Soriano should only play DH. The deals to improve the offense were only available on X box. IMO, it's far too early to count the offense out. They are more likely to improve than not. The deals to improve the pitching were made and in some cases, not made. Both the starters and the bullpen look in better shape. I do think we would have been better off keeping Riske or adding Haeger to the pen, just for a change from the line-up of 92-94 MPH guys. Having a Myers would have been nice too, we haven't had that LOOGY since Kelly Wunsch was healthy (obviously not sold on Logan just yet). The Red Sox bought him expressly to combat David Ortiz. I think 14% of his appearances last year were against Big Papi. In fact, the Red Sox are still using Javier Lopez and we have nothing to show for what looked to be a one-sided trade for KW. We could have moved Dye to LF if we had to...he could have adjusted. That would have given us Abreu in RF and Dye in LF, a much better defensive alignment. And Abreu's contract would have been off the books after 2008, coinciding with the maturation of the deals for AJ, Garland and Crede.

QUOTE(RME JICO @ May 20, 2007 -> 07:46 AM) In just over a week, our bullpen has gone from a top 5 unit to the 25th unit in all of baseball. The bullpen ERA was around 3.60 and it is now up to 4.85 with 9 Blown Saves (most in MLB). Hopefully like anything this is just a bad stretch and it will end soon. If not, this team cannot win when it has no offense and no bullpen. We were up there in blown saves the entire time, it's just that our bullpen ERA (largely due to a lack of exposure to other teams, with the least bullpen innings compiled) was masking some of the bigger impending problems, which was the lack of a go-to set up guy. We've gone through Thornton, MacDougal/Aardsma and now we're back to Thornton as our only reliable pitcher out of the pen, before you get to Jenks. Sisco and Masset getting bombed in games that were already decided hasn't helped, along with the runs that were piled on yesterday after the game was already over (when the Cubs took the lead back in the 8th).

QUOTE(beck72 @ May 20, 2007 -> 08:09 AM) The 2006 Post ASB sox and the 2007 sox are not having the same problems. For Rogers and us to say they are the same sub .500 team and not much better isn't right. Both had/ have bullpen issues. Yet the sox did pretty well trying to get a better group in without signing guys to ridiculous contracts [MacDougal has to be included as well, as he was added in the 2nd half; And of the free agents, who really would have been better than what the sox have?]. I also expect the bullpen to come around, as they have good stuff with some success. Right now, they are hitting a very rough patch. I have more faith in the sox pen coming around. At least they aren't old, hurt or have weak stuff, like most pens around the league. The 2006 offense still hit well, not as well as in the 1st half. And the 2007 starters are doing very well, which was the biggest reason for the drop off in the 2nd half. If the sox are close around the trade deadline, I'd expect KW to make a splash to improve the team [the sox have some depth that most teams won't part with]. Just get to the playoffs and a team can win. I could see Ichiro brought in to help win now, and as a trial run for 2008. Few other teams will be willing and able to go after Ichiro. The sox are one of them. Does JR have the cajones to allow KW to re-sign Ichiro (at his age) to a huge deal, especially if we miss the playoffs this year? I sincerely doubt it...or I'll put it this way, I will believe it when I see it happen. Are we a small market team afraid of our big market potential (because we've operated like that so long) or are we trying to operate like a large market team but afraid of making that one disastrous move financially that only the Yankees and Red Sox can absorb? I would love to see an outfield of a .260 or above Sweeney, Ertad and Ichiro defensively, but we don't have a LF right now. The best we can do is the Mack/Ozuna platoon again...and that's just not going to work over the course of an entire season IMO. We're chasing the A's, Yankees, Indians/Tigers (now 5 games back of both) and, in all likelihood since you can NEVER count them out, the Twins. We would have been much better off adding Ichiro last year...or Abreu, or Soriano, or someone. The pitching wasn't THAT bad, it was simply Buehrle and Contreras was so-so, but Garland and Vazquez pitched very well in the 2nd half (no wins for Javier to show for his efforts) and Garcia was also hit and miss, not pitching well until the Sox were pretty much out of it.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ May 20, 2007 -> 07:56 AM) Well Pierre with his .307 OBP hasn't shown himself to be worthy of his contract, while Wilson has a .577 OPS. Nixon's done a bit better a .748 OPS, but that number has been decreasing over the past few seasons. I think another issue is here, everyone assumed the Sox had to get a leadoff hitter to replace Pods. Now we've seen Erstad is getting that role, so we could have tried to get a middle of the order type of hitter. How about this for an option; Good power numbers, and you could stick him in a corner OF spot. Could be a long - term replacement for Dye as well. The Red Sox have two fourth outfielders in Crisp and Willy Mo Pena, and they know they can't stay double digit runs ahead of the Yankees forever. The problem is we don't have any bats to give up, and they don't need any of our starters (they have Lester on the way as well to take the last spot in the rotation) and who would they want out of our bullpen? Their concerns are Pedroia (as a rookie, which everyone saw coming when they idiotically let Loretta go) and Crisp. Would they take Erstad over Crisp? Maybe. That would leave us without a CFer, unless we want to make the desperation move to BA again in CF. Erstad has been one of our best players the last month or so. Otherwise, we have to trade the Red Sox Iguchi for Pedroia I guess, but that's not going to get us Pena in the deal as well. Unless you traded Iguchi for Pena and played Cintron or Ozuna over at 2B for the rest of the season, and I guess it could be worse....I don't want to see Mackowiak anywhere near our infield defense. Then you stick Pena in LF, make us officially the slowest team in the majors and an average team defensively to hopefully get a little kick-start of offense.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 20, 2007 -> 07:29 AM) That's a good point. Maybe if struggling is to be expected, which I agree that it probably is with young players, the bullpen of a team expecting to win a championship shouldn't be loaded with them. Phil Rogers has an interesting article today. The White Sox are 54-62 since right before the ASB last season. Maybe that's where they are at and nothing much more than that can be expected from this group. I wouldn't say blow it up as the topic of this thread suggests, but I would say its time for some changes. Its doesn't look like where we and the White Sox want this team to be in October is likely or even possible with the current arrangement. And we're last in the American League in runs scored since that point in time...coincidence, I think not? I've been e-mailing him these pre and post ASB comparisons (#1 offense in first half, #9 in 2nd half of 06, last in 07) and perhaps we are all coming around to this viewpoint that we're an average team. We've all been holding on too long to the idea we have too much talent not to go on a tear and get to 15-20 games over .500, as we did in 2005 and the first three months in 06. Those days are gone for at least 2-3 years, I'm afraid. Our pitching has been fine during that time period, Jenks had some problems down the stretch last year, but it was our offense that has killed us (largely) during this new epoch in Sox baseball. Combine that with the shaky bullpen in April-June of 06 and our 9 blown saves (already in 07), resulting directly in 6 losses, and we're pretty much screwed. We can be incredibly proud of our 163-90 stretch of baseball from April of 05 through July of 06 (including the playoffs), it might never be matched again in White Sox history for all we know.

2005 when Pods scores a run, including playoffs=49-16 2005 when Pods steals a base, including playoffs=32-11 2006 when Pods scores a run=48-17 2006 when Pods steals a base=24-6 97-33 in 2005 and 2006 when scoring at least one run, 56-17 when stealing a base Overall Sox record in 2005 and 2006 when Pods doesn't score=103-102 I went back to 2003 and 2004 with the Brewers, for argument's sake 2004, 42-29 when scoring a run, 25-28 when stealing at least one base Brewers are 25-65 when Pods doesn't score (overall team record 67-94) 2003, 43-26 when scoring a run, 21-17 when stealing at least one base Brewers are 25-68 when Pods doesn't score (overall team record 68-94) There are no easy answers right now. Sweeney has a huge hole inside...he can't turn on the ball pitched there, he simply plops it into LF or has his bat broken into splinters and plops it into LF. That's the one big adjustment he needs to make (noted by Girardi), that inside fastball, pulling his hands in and yet maintaining his swing mechanics and driving the ball. Of the two balls he's driven for hits, one came on a hanger. I can't remember the other ball he roped down the line for a double, it MIGHT have been a fastball. The Yankees exposed this weakness for all of the league, as noted again by Girardi (who I don't want to manage the White Sox, by the way!!!) Sweeney needs to go back down to AAA before Walker does more damage. We're in a place of desperation where the best option might be to play Jerry Owens everyday and pray for the best until Pods comes back. Ozuna hasn't been the same player since he got injured last year, and Mackowiak had a big hit yesterday but he's not an everyday player either. The more you play either of those guys, the more they're exposed. I'm not saying it's a great option or that Owens will ever be a regular, but I think we're close to the time where we have no other option. Terrero is certainly not a major league player, and sticking Fields out there to learn a new position on the fly in the big leagues seems insane (yes, that's what the Royals are essentially doing with Teahen in RF, but those are the Royals).

QUOTE(winninguglyin83 @ May 19, 2007 -> 02:31 PM) Signing pods ranks with trading for Todd Richie and drafting Royce Ring ahead of Joe Blanton as the great moments in KW History. Not even close...Barry/Berry and Masaoka for Baldwin, Adkins for Durham, trading Foulke for Koch, trading for Royce Clayton and displacing Valentin, signing D'Angelo Jimenez, making Willie Harris a starter, trading for R. Alomar when he was simply done, Felix Diaz for Kenny Lofton and many more. By the way, we'd be better off with Matt Cain and arguably Jeff Francoeur right now, they were also drafted after Ring. QUOTE(DBAH0 @ May 20, 2007 -> 06:12 AM) Was it too much to expect out of Pods to stay healthy and produce? Yeah probably. But beck72 came up with an excellent point. Would you rather had signed Dave Roberts on the DL himself with a .216/.283/.317 stat-line or Gary Matthews Jr. for $10M a season instead? KW pretty much had 2 choices this off-season. To trade B-Mac or Garcia for a starting OF to replace Pods, or to get some young pitching. He made his choice, and some of that has paid off if you look at how Danks has produced. I think KW was in a "can't win" situation because if he trades say Garcia for Rowand and Fabio Castro, people say we've not getting a good enough return to improve our young pitching. Pierre was the other main guy under consideration as well...so everyone's arguing they wouldn't have signed any of the three names that keep getting mentioned, but they would have found a "mystery" candidate like Trot Nixon or Preston Wilson instead that would have been a better move. The stats don't completely lie. We're 50+ games over .500 with Pods in the line-up since the beginning of the 2005 season, and now exactly one game under .500 when he's out of the line-up. That should tell you something. I'm sure our winning percentage is even higher when he either scores a run or steals a base.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 19, 2007 -> 09:40 PM) Aardsma has had a few shaky outings and has been great others. Basically just like his short career has gone. KW built the bullpen and impressed a lot of people with the velocity, but who has had sustained success in the major leagues? Aardsma? No. Thornton? No. Sisco? No. MacDougal? No. Logan? No. Masset? No. Jenks? Some, but he was less than dominant the second half last year. Forget the radar readings, chances are this bullpen is going to struggle. Most have had control issues before or they wouldn't have been available in the bargain bin. The White Sox don't want to pay the going rate for guys who have strung together a few quality years of work together, and that's their prerogitive. I don't understand though how you give Vazquez all that money when you had him under your control through 2008, and go cheap on the bullpen. Vazquez will be a question mark every season he is a White Sox. You could have 2 or maybe even 3 quality relievers for the money you will be paying him. If you go the way the Sox have gone, chances are the bullpen is going to fail you more than you think. To answer your question about building a bullpen, spending some money on it is a start. The 6 bullpen guys make a combined $3,675,000 a year. Thats 6 guys making just a tad more than Pods, COMBINED. A lot of people in the know thought Justin Speier would be a White Sox in 2007. The White Sox didn't want to pay the going rate. The Angels got him. The Angels have a good bullpen. And you are right, a lot of things went right for the Sox in 2005. Things we may never see again. There was a lot of luck involved, but that doesn't take anything away from the accomplishment. Every team that has ever won a WS has been very lucky. We're paying the price for having one of the best starting rotations in baseball. Arguably, it's still soaking up too much of our payroll, and that's after jettisoning Freddy Garcia. Let's say we did have Justin Speier...well, we might have 2-3 more wins due to his "holds," but who would be our fifth starter then, Haeger, Floyd or Broadway? We're extremely fortunate to be where we are right now. I guess we can keep going back and wishing we had kept El Duque and Chris Young, but that doesn't do much good right now. Even if we dealt Vazquez today for "proven" relievers (and there's MAYBE 10 of them of them in baseball, the Scot Shields/Linebrinks/Zumayas of the world, one of them might be injured (Zumaya) or having an off season or decline, like Mo Rivera or Trevor Hoffman. It's ironic that two of the better bullpen pitchers in our division recently have been ex-Sox in Grilli and Matt Guerrier. It just shows the fragile nature of the bullpen. Look at the Cubs coming into the series...and they have spent millions on their pen. Denys Reyes? Jamie Walker? Of course, a lot comes down to depth, the Tigers have pitchers to cover up for Fernando Rodney or Zumaya, we didn't last year and don't this year. They also had the luxury of being able to bring up an Andrew Miller. Heck, Chad Durbin's pitching well for them, breaking the "ex-Royals" rule (same as Suppan and Miguel Batista). Minnesota has survived without Balfour and now Crain because they've produced Rincon and Neshek, among others...Perkins as well. KW has had to go out into the market time and time again and "outguess" other organizations...when's the last time we produced a true, bonafide reliever in our organization? Interestingly, Fogg and Ring both came to us as college closers. Rauch and Majewski did well with other teams as relievers, and there's Frank Francisco too. However, the focus for most teams will always be on starting pitching...and since all we have produced is Buehrle and McCarthy/Danks in the last 7 years, we're having to pay for it to acquire it another way. Imagine we had taken Matt Cain or Jeff Francoeur instead of Royce Ring? That one of the following became the pitcher they were once projected to be? Danny Wright Kip Wells Matt Guerrier Jim Parque Lorenzo Barcelo Jon Rauch Jason Stumm Corwin Malone Kris Honel Brian West Matt Ginter Aaron Myette As far as the bullpen goes, look what happened to Jeff Bajenaru, Sean Tracey or Joe Valentine, all prospects on the fringes or in our Top 10 lists... We've produced an injury-plagued and inconsistent Crede and Rowand, Lee and Ordonez, and then you have to go back further to Ray Durham, he became an arguably better player once he left the White Sox. Heck, Ray Durham would be the fastest player on the White Sox right now, at his age. QUOTE(DBAH0 @ May 20, 2007 -> 06:46 AM) My thoughts on each member; Jenks - Not much to worry about with Bobby, which is saying something considering his past couple of Spring Training's. MacDougal - Something tells me he's carrying an injury. 10 BB's in 15 IP's, .283 BAA compared to a .213 mark for the Sox last season. Probably been the major disappointment so far. Put him on the 15 day DL if there is something wrong with him, and call up Dewon Day for a little while. Thornton - You know Thornton's got great stuff, and yes we did win that trade with Seattle. However I think Matt's always gotten away with some things as his numbers show he isn't a "very good" setup man. His BAA is up by .041, but at least recently he's gotten into a groove with 0 ER in his past 4.1 IP pitched. We need him to keep that momentum up. Aardsma - 1 bad game has putten his ERA up by 2. Considering it was against his former team who would know his stuff, I'm not majorly concerned. It'll take a while at least for the AL still to work him out. Should take over for MacDougal as the primary 8th inning guy with Thornton. Sisco - Should not be up in the bullpen. I have said this from the moment we acquired him, he should be sent down to Charlotte and starting. Long - term that's where his future lies. Logan - Shown glimpses, and I'd rather have him up instead of Sisco. I think KW should have done a better job in the off-seeason of getting 1 more veteran lefty reliever. Hideki Okajima would have been perfect, look how good he has been and we've had success with Japanese players here before. That's something I think would have improved the pen just a little bit more. Just because he's striking out AA hitters doesn't mean he (Day) would be successful in the big leagues, where hitters are much more disciplined and force you to throw strikes. He has given up 12 walks in only 23 innings, and he's also giving up more hits than IP' (25 in 23)...if they thought Day or Oneli Perez were the answer, they'd be with the big league club right now.

QUOTE(South Side Fireworks Man @ May 19, 2007 -> 07:09 PM) You are absolutely correct. The Sox need to add a couple of key pieces in the next month or two, not subtract. Since the Sox don't have anything in their minor league system to help, they must overpay financially to fill holes. This is why they should be looking to pick up a couple of high priced guys by taking on some contracts while giving up little in talent in return. The Sox have been playing like crap and they're still over .500 and well within reach of first place with a lot of time to go. If they would only start playing up to their career norms, they would be right up there near the top. Adding a couple of key pieces can put them over the top. A fire sale would only guarantee the end of the current WS window and would guarantee nothing for the next few years. The Sox have to keep attendance up this year so they have the resources to replace the guys everyone is saying need to be replaced for next year. There is no one in the farm system that will help, so they need to pay for top tier talent. They have to operate like a big market team. Last year was the time to go out and do that, and KW flinched. He's flinching again by not re-signing or extending Dye, Buehrle, Crede and Iguchi, among others. The fact is, we can't add $10-20 million onto this payroll without dire consequences for the future...let's say the Sox still finish around .500 and attendance tumbles and JR decides we can't keep Konerko, Thome, some of our starting pitchers and the one or two new vets (like an Abreu) that have been added to the payroll. We'll be forced to sell those assets off and potentially give away what pitching prospects we have just to get our contracts cleared and off the books. The White Sox have NEVER operated this way. Our mentality is, well, we're paying Pods $2.9 million and he MIGHT come back and we have Sweeney/Mack/Ozuna, so why make a move? We have Erstad and we're only paying him $1.25 million, so why grab someone making $10-15 million? We have Dye, and he's only making $7 million and putting up MVP numbers.... You can already see the window of opportunity to take the city back for the White Sox...not just because we've lost 2 in a row to the Cubs, but because we didn't do anything in the 2nd half last season and we "stood pat" in terms of improving the ballclub significantly for 2007. Now KW is stuck...make some desperate moves and his job is gone and it's 5 years before the Sox are back in the playoffs again (not to mention Minnesota will be able to increase revenues with their new stadium). Do a fire sale and you can get back in 2-3 years, but risk alienating your fan base, like we've now done twice (a mini-version in 2002). The Indians started deconstructing in 2002/03 and they have the luxury of one of the best all-time trades, Sizemore/Lee/Phillips for Colon. We don't have a similar asset to Colon in his prime to trade off, unfortunately.

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ May 19, 2007 -> 04:32 PM) Its sad that even if we win today, we have absolutely zero chance tomorrow because Ozzie is a moron. Seriously, Gio>>>Masset. Gio is a lefty and has better stuff, Masset will be rocked and Oz will look like a moron. Personally, I would have started Danks or Count on short rest, but Gio is the best option in the minors. Unless he pulls an Arnie Munoz and we have to use our bullpen for 8 innings. Floyd and Egbert are the pitchers who would come into Sunday with that as the natural spot for them pitch in rest-wise.

QUOTE(kyyle23 @ May 19, 2007 -> 04:30 PM) Rally. Crede. The bullpens will decide this game...and we have Thornton and Jenks for today, HOPEFULLY.

QUOTE(Chopper2Hopper @ May 19, 2007 -> 04:29 PM) Have you ever seen a team pop up so much? Of course you haven't! Man, Crede sucks! GREEN IMPLIED.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ May 19, 2007 -> 04:26 PM) KW gives this f***ing gas can 11 million a year. What the f*** is that, the guy is a f***ing headcase!! What a waste!! f*** this team!!! If you're taking it that seriously, maybe you should get away from the tv or computer for awhile. This is not unexpected.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 19, 2007 -> 03:27 PM) Nice to know I wasn't the only one who thought that. The Cubs pitcher would probably be our 4th best hitter right now. Buehrle's at-bat yesterday was one of the best of the day for the Sox.

QUOTE(South Side Fireworks Man @ May 19, 2007 -> 12:35 PM) KW has a good track record as Sox GM. And if they lose a couple of free agents, they can also sign a couple of free agents. I just hope the Sox can win today, because if this team ever loses two in a row again, some people here will be ready to throw in the towel again and clamor for a fire sale. But he's built from the "base" of an average or mediocre team...never having to start from scratch. He's in a precarious situation with players like Uribe and Iguchi, because we have no natural replacements for those players. This might be the time to get a shortstop on the trade or FA market, the best thing right now is with the Yankees/Jeter and Mets/Reyes, the only major player in the market to drive up prices artificially is the Red Sox. Someone mentioned our drafting history earlier. Royce Ring was an ultra "safe" pick, as a college closer we looked to move into set-up (this was before Marte was firmly established)...the biggest risks we have taken were Stumm, Honel, Borchard and Anderson. Drafting high school pitchers is always a crapshoot. If you look at the Moneyball draft year, I think there were six high school pitchers from the first couple of rounds that have already made large impacts on MLB (Loewen, Greinke, Kazmir, Hamels). Matt Cain and Jeff Francoeur were two players we definitely could have used, INSTEAD of Royce Ring. You could make the argument that we would be a definite favorite for the playoffs with either of those players (Cain/Francoeur) on our current roster. However, from #18-30 in that first round, only Cain, Francoeur and Jeremy Guthrie (Indians) are on major league rosters.

QUOTE(BobDylan @ May 19, 2007 -> 03:16 AM) Heads already hit it, but YOU'RE an idiot. Anyway, it is tough for any manager to mange over 4 errors. That was bound to happen, wasn't it? Fact is this is probably Guillen's last year any way you look at it unless the White Sox make a run deep into the playoffs...which doesn't seem likely. It's a bit of a different feel, but this team is just like the teams of '01-'04--in the mix, but not quite there. This may seem odd, but I'm looking forward to rebuilding and seeing some fresh faces. I'm excited to see if KW can bring this team back to the top. And you would trust KW to rebuild this team? Why? And what new manager would you want to bring in? Bobby Valentine? Buck Showalter? Cito Gaston? The same old recycled guys? Let's say they lose Buehrle and Dye as Free Agents...do you really trust KW to rebuild, when we've had so many blown first round draft picks and busts in our farm system? It's not just Ozzie Guillen, it's a systemic/endemic/organizational problem....front office, major league coaching staff, scouting, advanced scouting, minor league instruction. You could fire Ozzie right now and we would still be a .500 team. Joe McCarthy or Connie Mack wouldn't get this team, as presently constituted, to 90 wins. We're incredibly fortunate to be over .500 at this point. You can give all the credit to the players for the wins and blame to Guillen for losses, but a team that scores less than it gives up is hardly ever in the playoffs. Not even Merlin the Magician can pull that one off, in cartoon movies.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 18, 2007 -> 04:39 PM) Cotts and Politte had amazing seasons in 2005. Riske isn't a terrible reliever....he was just used in spots that he doesn't excel in. Interestingly enough, he's done a pretty decent job for the Royals recently as their closer.