caulfield12

Even more impressive is the list of names fighting to get on the list. Clayton Richard Link, who some consider to be our future closer. Russell, who was once a Top 10 Sox prospect, close to Top 5. Nix (not sure if he'd qualify anyway) Marquez Broadway McCulloch Nunez maybe Gilmore Santos Egbert Hudson Carter Rodriguez Cole Armstrong M. Gartrell Not sure if I agree about Shelby being close to the equivalent of Allen. I think Shelby's kind of like a "tweener" in basketball...good athlete, no one superior defensive position but good power and speed combo, maybe or may not be a starter but could make it as a utility guy for sure, like a more powerful Willie Harris that can play multiple infield and outfield positions in a pinch. Seems we've gone from last in the majors to somewhere in the 12-18 category now in the big leagues....nice improvement. There is an obvious dearth of starting pitching prospects, kind of like the reverse of the late 90's depth charts with tons of young pitching and only Rowand and Crede in the pipeline.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 11:09 AM) Luckily for Red Sox fans Theo Epstein would probably disagree with you. A few things. One, often times it's easy to peg the superstar players in any sport, I don't discount the eye test. Two, the Twins obviously weren't overwhelmed by David Ortiz even though he was growing as a player every year and those whacky stats would have told you that. http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/ortizda01.shtml Taveras does not fit into any of the categories of players you listed, he's not a superstar and at best he would be a role player who sometimes you need to compare him with similar players, which stats help one to do. You seem like someone who also believes in "hard nose football" and "Bears Weather!!" The Ortiz decision was made because they had too many players at about the same time increasing in salary, and there were concerns in MIN about his work ethic and growing/expanding girth. Obviously they were wrong about him, Thank God.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 11:09 AM) Luckily for Red Sox fans Theo Epstein would probably disagree with you. A few things. One, often times it's easy to peg the superstar players in any sport, I don't discount the eye test. Two, the Twins obviously weren't overwhelmed by David Ortiz even though he was growing as a player every year and those whacky stats would have told you that. http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/ortizda01.shtml Taveras does not fit into any of the categories of players you listed, he's not a superstar and at best he would be a role player who sometimes you need to compare him with similar players, which stats help one to do. You seem like someone who also believes in "hard nose football" and "Bears Weather!!" The Ortiz decision was made because they had too many players at about the same time increasing in salary, and there were concerns in MIN about his work ethic and growing/expanding girth. Obviously they were wrong about him, Thank God.

QUOTE (Swingandalongonetoleft @ Dec 3, 2008 -> 01:19 AM) So now: Buehrle Floyd Danks A half season of ??? (Contreras MIA) ??? I don't know about just plugging in the two we had spot start for us at the end of the year. If this is in fact the much talked about rebuild, we have seen teams in the past compete whilst doing so. Danks and Floyd were great this past year, but sophomore slump/flash in the pan are coined phrases for a reason. Not saying they were flukes, but how many in the past have had one damn good year and then dropped off? I have faith in the two, but you are now, at this point at least, going into the season with one proven starter. On that same note we have Ramirez and Quentin. Not saying, just saying... It's nice to speculate..."and what if we got Bailey, what a sick rotation that would be, even though he had a solid 8 ERA in the NL Central...", "dude, Pittsburgh has this disgusting nasty flamethrower in low A ball that we just highway robbered them for...". Firstly, with some of these guys we're talking years away, secondly, Coop is great, but him being here doesn't guarantee that whatever once highly touted fallen star prospect for another organization will suddenly see the light under his tutelage. Did Vazquez or Logan see the light? Reclamation projects are great when there are fall back options. There are no fall back options. (sign sheets!) I'd rather not roll my dice in the futures market. I realize our position may be limited, but someone who's just about Major League ready to throw a ball with results, or an on the cheap vet (Sheets for example) needs to come our way. Words like "ace" shouldn't be attatched to a pitcher after one good season. There's nothing wrong with acquiring "years away" guys by chance, but I'm not a fan of making those players our sole targets. With Dye being rumored to leave, what did we get for Swisher who was coming off an all time low value-wise? Nothing at all? Betemit? For F***S sake... Baseball will be played in Chicago between the years of 2009-2012, after all. Had Swisher not been thrown away, the loss of Dye, should it happen, would have been more easily absorbed. Now, who's going to step into this corner outfield position to replace 50+ HR's? I hope to Christ it's Manny, because Betemit is good for like 4 or 5. I remember long periods of offensive struggle in the past two years. Losing arguably the biggest producer and one who had potential to be a big producer is not the remedy to this. Luckily, it's just 12/02 and the action is just getting started. I imagine we won't go into next year with a 1-3 man rotation and 75 fewer HR's. I imagine and pray. It may not seem like I like the trade from the words written above, but I do, at least this one. Javy was frustrating to watch, and clearly ties were severed between him and the organization from about September on. He needed to leave, and this is what I mean by acquiring years off guys by chance. I think with the Dye talks floating around I'm pissed that we let go of Swisher coming of the lowest of lows career production wise for a Wilson Betemit. And then they want to add the slugger Taveras to boot. Sheets still won't be cheap. Arguably, he's the fourth best starter on the market. The second tier is Jon Garland, Randy Wolf (whose own team didn't offer him arbitration) and Oliver Perez. All of those guys are expected to get 3-4 years and $40-50 million each. Heck, Kyle Lohse, who pretty much anyone in baseball could have had a couple of seasons ago for FREE, just got $41 million over 4 years. It would be nice to think a Sheets would want to pitch for us on an incentives-based contract, but why would he when other teams are willing to give him guaranteed money and a longer contract term? With Swisher, Dayan Viciedo or Fields have approximately equal chances (between the two of them) to have even bigger impacts on the White Sox than Swisher would have...I would hardly call him an automatic 100 RBI guy, since he's never even done that once in his entire career. I certainly would never rank him ahead of Quentin/Thome/Dye/Konerko as a hitter or threat to other teams. Next, wait to see what we do with the money from letting Swisher, Vazquez, Crede, Cabrera and Uribe. Then judge, but at least wait until next season has played out, and you might have to wait 2-3 years to see what type of impact, if any, that Marquez and Nunez have on the major league roster. If nothing else were to be done before Opening Day, then I would obviously have a problem with that. But I seriously doubt that would happen.

Looking at his stats, he's NEVER played CF and barely played 2B/3B more than a few games. I really think KW will make him the starter at SS, and move Ramirez back to 2B or CF. Otherwise, you're asking him to learn a whole new position on the fly in Spring Training. That doesn't make much sense to me. As noted above, he's most valuable to the Sox and other clubs at SS. http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/L/B...llibridge.shtml

QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 11:45 PM) Speed and experience at the position. I have seen where he used to play CF...his move to SS may have been because he struggled there or maybe he was just good enough overall to make the switch. He has excellent stolen base potential. If he can play solid D in CF, why not? I can see the Willy Taveras thread arguments transferred to another one if Lillibridge was named the starting CFer (with his 2008 season highlights/lowlights featured prominently). I'm no BA fan, but I would rather have BA or Owens or a BA/Owens platoon than Lillibridge as the starter there. At least we know Taveras can steal bases, and has the arm/speed/range to play the position at much better than MLB average for center.

QUOTE (Jenks Heat @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 11:45 PM) Roberts and Daniel Cabrera are attainable much more easily. I think Roberts is a great one year fit until Beckham is ready. The rest of the options are meh..... How about Roberts and Furcal with Ramirez in CF or at 3B with Anderson in CF. Don't move Ramirez to 3B, please. First of all, it's the position he has played the least after SS/2B/CF. He would be an average or below average offensive player there...up the middle, he's a much bigger asset and advantage over other teams. Furcal AND Roberts together would be prohibitively expensive (based on what we're hearing from FO and anticipating further recessionary economic erosion)...and I doubt we get either one, to tell the truth. It's possible, but still unlikely.

QUOTE (bighurt4life @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 11:35 PM) Based on the AJC report it sounds like we got one stud (flowers) one reclamation project (Lillebridge) and then two other high ceiling prospects in this deal. That sounds like quite a haul for a pretty middling pitcher, I gotta give the edge to KW in this trade for sure. Like the Pods/Lee deal, the biggest question is WHERE, and IF ANYWHERE, the money goes? I think raising ticket prices 11% and drastically cutting payroll would not be well-received. There's obviously 2-3 more "pretty big" moves to be made to complete the puzzle.

But what skills would Lillibridge have in CF that would be consided "plus" tools for a MLB player at that position? I think he will get a LONG look, simply because so far he's the only player capable of having an impact on the roster for 2009. And, for whatever reason, KW's trade acquisitions always seem to get their fair share of time before they are declared failures. We've gone from having not enough depth to TOO MUCH, haha! The following players will all be hard-pressed to make the Opening Day roster. Lillibridge/Nix/Getz (Betemit seems assured of a spot) Beckham Jord. Danks Shelby Allen Marquez/Egbert/Richard/Poreda/McCulloch/Broadway Owens/Anderson/Wise Viciedo/Fields RP Nunez (from Yankees) Link/Russell Flowers/Armstrong That's not a bad depth chart at all. We should have some very good teams in AA and AAA with legit prospects for the first time in awhile.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 11:25 PM) He's incredibly overrated by this board, IMO. The only real need he addresses for us is in CF. He's not a leadoff hitter at all. .315 OBP and a .248 BA isn't too hot, nor are his 165 K's. He has good power and speed, but was only 14/19 in SB. Pretty damn good defensively though. But, for winning it all this year, and only this year, would you have rather this package or Young? That's the question also, because KW, until this trade at least, was typically more "win this season" oriented than long-term/long-range development. Of course, he certainly has some new toys in the sandbox to move to get the impact player/s he really has his eye on I think. Also, considering how much we have struggled to either get results from BA, sign a FA (Hunter, Fukudome, Rowand, etc.) or plugging in the likes of Mackowiak, Swisher and Griffey...I think his position on the field carries an additional premium with it that's hard not to acknowledge looking at the Sox CF results in 2006. 2007 and 2008.

QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 11:20 PM) Good info SEAL... One great thing I hear? THe kid will do whatever it takes to get to the show. The bad? We're already talking DH...for a prospect? I want people who can prevent the other people from scoring runs as well. It's all good, I like the deal...I am not crying for joy, but am far from upset with this deal. It's very obvious only Lillebridge has a shot at coming to Chicago for next season and he is the guy I am very happy about getting...a great acqusition and he's going to win a lot of people over, a typical KW move...grab a talented player kinda out of favor with current club. We got Quentin, Thornton, Floyd for a song and dance...they have been awesome (at least so far)...what Lillebridge follow suit. Lillibridge has to be the favorite to be the starting 2B at this point, one would assume...Betemit's a defensive liability it seems as an everyday player, Nix has a ton to prove at the MLB level and so does Getz. All things considered, we have REALLY good infield depth. The big question though is SS...yeah, we have Alexei, and Beckham, and Lillibridge, and Betemit....but can any of them play the position adequately enough from a defensively standpoint? Of course, KW and most of the fanbase is betting on Alexei getting the job done, and I think that's an 85-90% probability he'll be perfectly fine over there.

Just curious....playing Devil's Advocate on KW. Would anyone take back Chris Young to be the everyday starting CFer (maybe we signed Furcal too to hit leadoff, don't really want Young there)...for this package we have just received? Would you rather have 3-4 fairly promising players/prospects/suspects or YOUNG? Discuss at your own convenience.

Well, no dout Abreu's a better defender....and moving Dye and having Quentin and Abreu on the corners would make more sense from a defensive standpoint. I just don't think Abreu's numbers over the last couple of seasons and his age justify a big investment, and I do think he will get at least a 3 year commitment from some team out there, not sure which, but it will probably happen.

You're taking something of a gamble hoping Dunn can adjust to the AL quickly, but that also would give us pretty perfect L/R balance in the middle of the order. Dunn at least is still pretty close to the prime of his career. Once again, not much interest in Abreu at anything over $10 million per season at this point in his career. For that matter, I'd ALMOST rather have Ibanez than Abreu, although it would be a toss-up. Depends, of course of money and number of years.

QUOTE (daa84 @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 09:14 PM) that would be pretty nice...especially if we could get a young pitcher + another prospect for dye...theres an awful lot of on base ability in that lineup with dunn, thome, quentin...i wouldnt sweat the K's too much though, but you are right, dunn, fields thome and alexei could help lead that team to mlb records in Ks...whatever though..my personal feelings towards Ks are rather well documented around here, so it wouldnt bother me too much Viciedo figures in here somewhere too as a power source for sure... I don't think Abreu (age, will want $45/3 years) and Dunn (too one dimensional for KW's new "vision") are the best fits. I think someone like Juan Rivera (if Dye is indeed traded) makes the best sense for 2 years in LF.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 09:06 PM) well, we mustn't forget that we did sign Viciedo, which is what, about 2 million? If we trade Dye, I'd guess we'd be looking at something between 30-35 million off of the books. $11 million for 5 years, so $2.2 million theoretically...we haven't really seen the "details" of the official contract, as it has yet to be signed, right? Speaking of Viciedo, have there been any updates on when he gets cleared to re-enter the US?

QUOTE (BearSox @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 09:04 PM) lol, I kind of jumbled my thoughts there. A lot of going on today. I doubt we'd go and sign both Furcal and Dunn. I was just thinking I would love to get Dunn, but if that were the scenario, Furcal would be unlikely. However, if I want to get my ps3 up and running... 1. Furcal, SS 2. Ramirez, CF 3. Quentin, RF 4. Thome, DH 5. Konerko, 1B 6. Dunn, LF 7. Fields/Betemit, 3B 8. Pierzynski, C 9. Getz/Lillibridge, 2B That's a nice lookin' lineup right there, if you ask me. The only problem is that your looking at probably at least 250 K's, but likely more, from the 5 and 6 spots together. Or a 2 year deal for Manny Ramirez to play LF and DH occasionally, with Quentin moved to RF in the reported Dye trade. Can you imagine Manny, Quentin, Thome and Konerko as the middle of the line-up? Doubt it would happen, but nice to dream. And I wouldn't count out either Nix or Viciedo quite yet.

We can't give Furcal four years at $10 million plus per season...at his age, and with his injury history. Three, maybe, maybe it's possible....he supposedly had a legit offer for 3 years and $39 million, and the Dodgers refused to match it, even though he was/is one of Torre's favorite players.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 08:54 PM) Bailey might work to replace Richard.... I think we can't just assume every pitching prospect we take on has the success of Danks and Floyd so far. It's just against mathematical probability.

With the Braves' new "mid market" financial mindset and Vazquez's "arguably unreasonable" contract to be a 4th starter...I think we're looking pretty good with this deal. It was obvious we had to get rid of Swisher and Vazquez, along with Cabrera, Crede and Uribe. Our roster is already 20% different and we're just getting started. The question is whether we cut deeper and deal Dye and/or Jenks.

Well....you're putting an AWFUL lot of pressure on Don Cooper to go with Bailey and another youngster at the back end. I think they have to find someone from that group that includes Pedro, Randy Johnson, Garcia (if they check his health), Colon, Mulder, Duchscherer, Schilling, etc.

QUOTE (Markbilliards @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 08:44 PM) Anybody else feel a trade for Gio Gonzalez coming? Cooper can STILL fix him. As long as it's not for Carl Everett or Roberto Alomar, or Sandy Alomar for that matter.

Well, the obvious concern now becomes the rotation. Maybe they know something about Contreras' comeback we don't, but that is still not the long-term solution. Right now, our last two spots in the rotation are filled with Richard/Poreda/Carrasco/Marquez/Broadway/Egbert and any other names you want to throw in there. It certainly puts some pressure on KW to sign a FA fifth starter from the scrap heap, because other teams are going to see our obvious position of weakness...we've gone from 6 starters to 3 now, and I'm sure that makes Williams feel a little insecure. Interesting the Angels offered Garland arbitration...sort of a surprise, but maybe not.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 08:07 PM) I'm still hearing Morton, although those two are on the "list". KW wants a starter in return as well. BTW, our vacant 2B spot has an open competition between Lilli, Getz and Nix. Pretty good talent there. Not to mention Betemit as well.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 2, 2008 -> 12:21 AM) Really? Broadway and McCullough were joke picks, not worthy of the spot taht we took them. Yes, many prospects will fail, thats baseball, but alot will contribute in some way, especially with Kenny liking to trade them. Of course, they need to have talent still to have value, these higher picks allow the Sox to get those talented players, and with the new scouting/development people in place I expect much better drafting to help build for the future. Will it always work out? No. But I would rather have mroe draft picks, higher ones, because you increase not only the number of prospects you can trade, but also the likeliness that they will contribute on the big league team. That was a big mistake. We could have had Matt Garza there...the Twins outsmarted us on that one.