caulfield12

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 21, 2008 -> 03:00 PM) Nice play by Alexei. DJ is saying that this is Danks' last inning. Why in the hell would that be the case? Why would we want to hand the ball off to our horrendous bullpen when our starter is cruising and has a low pitch count? He definitely should be given the 8th, and then hand the ball to Jenks for the 9th. He's at 90 pitches now...I think you have to let him face Maier, if he gets him, you let him pitch to DeJesus. But I have a feeling we might see Thornton.

83

This is the best chance for TB to score. I think they're using rookie Jose Mijares (their fourth lefty) instead of Reyes/Breslow/Guardado.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 21, 2008 -> 02:47 PM) Good, I didn't see that. Wonder if he was at home in Missouri and decided to make the journey to the park. I wonder if Crede and Danks are going hunting tomorrow on the off-day at Buehrle's farm? Maybe that would help Mark to relax before the big series next week.

Danks at 72 pitches. I think he can get the game to Jenks in the 9th...although they might use Thornton against DeJesus.

QUOTE (Felix @ Sep 21, 2008 -> 02:38 PM) If you're going to say things, at least look them up before you do so. It might prevent some embarrassment. Blackburn in September: 7.58 ERA, 26 H, 17 R in 19 IP GENIUS Thanks PK. Insurance is always good, especially today while the Twins are already winning. UMMMM....do you even read, dude? I said why would anyone assume that Blackburn, the way he has been pitching, would beat Buerhle? Your what hurts? Has everyone around here been hypnotized by Sarah Palin-itis and lost IQ?

Especially that Blackburn, the way he has been pitching, is going to beat Buehrle. I can see us losing the 1st and 3rd games more easily.

QUOTE (sox1844 @ Sep 21, 2008 -> 02:32 PM) Whew. Got out of that one. If you're so unhappy his defense at second, can you imagine Lex at short next year? You have to remember this is the first time Ramirez has played a 162 game season. He was playing essentially mid to high A ball last season in Cuba. He'll be fine. Nobody could be worse than Royce Clayton, by the way.

QUOTE (G&T @ Sep 21, 2008 -> 02:30 PM) I wonder if I could steal on this pitching staff. Didn't you see the video from Spring Training with Joe Cowley betting AJ that he could steal off him...it was pretty funny.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 21, 2008 -> 02:25 PM) We can't expect any more favors from other teams regarding Minnie. Don't teams normally play the scrubs the day after wildly celebrating their title? Their line-up isn't that bad. Zobrist and Hernandez are in, Navarro and Akamura are sitting. Longoria hasn't played the best defense, and they simply can't get the big breakthrough hit against Liriano, who keeps flirting with danger. The best hope is the bullpen messing it up for the Twins now.

Send Wise...why not? Jermaine hasn't been hitting recently.

If we do make the playoffs, I would have no idea how to order our first four guys. Realistically, Danks has been our best pitcher this season...but you have the feeling Coop would go with Buehrle and Vazquez, then Floyd. At least that's who they wanted to face the Twins next week.

Juanie needs to get on one of his patented one week hot streaks again.

But didn't we lose 2 of 3 against the Royals near the end of the season that final month? There was one really sloppy and frustrating game (maybe it was raining) when Buehrle was pitching...not to mention that game where we had a HUGE lead against KC and somehow blew it. That was a nightmare, waking up the next morning and seeing the final score and staring in disbelief.

Did we honestly look any better against DET and KC at this point 3 years ago? I remember watching the likes of Blum and Borchard hopelessly flail away...more frustrating than this.

"Dude, you're just not getting it. Man, and I thought I was a fan who lacked knowledge and insight. Wow. Yeah, and once the team was done overachieving, Ozzie's mismanaging become quite apparent, didn't it? NOTHING you are saying is actual logic to the argument. All you are doing is rambling, changing the subject, comparing other managers, and throwing around irrelevant statistics. You presenting just about everything you can that's NOT relevant. I'll probably get in trouble for saying this, but you're like a desperate woman in an argument. You'll go on forever and ever and say nothing relevant, but never give up spouting the same meaningless babble because that's your nature. You're another statistic guy who thinks the statistics he's presenting have any relevance to Ozzie's inability as an in-game manager. Not much point in arguing with you further. I'm beating a dead horse here. It's clear no "Ozzie defender" on this board can read or provide any solid argument. I don't see how you people can't see the truth. Ozzie makes f***ups so much it's ridiculous. He has no idea what he is doing with his technical managerial duties. This is a fact. Are you going to deny it? If so, fine, be in denial. If not, then just stop trying to defend him and give it a rest." You can just wait for the White Sox to "choke" this week and then spend the rest of the off-season telling everyone that it's the manager, not the players, that need to be replaced. It's a fun hobby for some who have never even managed a Little League team or worked in professional baseball but think they know everything about the game. I missed the memo from the White Sox where they hired you to do a comprehensive evaluation of the manager because you have insight or knowledge that no other Sox fans apparently possess about Ozzie Guillen. Therefore, I am forwarding this thread directly to the organization so Reinsdorf and KW can clearly see what a mistake they are making by continuing to grant a contract to Mr. Guillen, and that if only you were the manager, they would undoubtedly have won every AL Central title contested in the last decade with ease.

"And as far as his motivational abilities, that's fine and dandy, and that's one thing I LIKE about Ozzie, but what good has it done? How good have the Sox looked since 2005 ended? Ask yourself that question. The actual BASEBALL MANAGING ABILITIES need to be there. They are absent from Ozzie. It's a simple FACT, so why all the defense? I'm not looking to crucify the man, I just don't get why there are still people out there who deny his incompetence." 2004=83-79 (Pythagorean, 84-78) 2005=99-63 (expected 91-71) actually, 110-64 2006=90-72 (expected 88-74) 2007=72-90 (expected 67-95) Every year but one, he's done better or much better than would be predicted statistically (even then, it was only a one game difference in 2004). I think we all understand that the 2005 team overachieved (and you have to give the manager some credit there). but even in 2006 and 2007, the team's overall record was better than it should have been. What more can you ask of the manager? The guy's 66 games over .500 in his career managing the Sox. That's nothing to be ashamed about. You can do the same analysis (it's not perfect, but it's certainly one barometer) for any manager (the ones I listed earlier) and Ozzie ranks right up there with the better ones in the game. Phil Rogers wrote just such a column a year or two ago, I think. In 2006, the starters died in the second half, along with Jenks and the offense. In 2007, when you're playing Andy Gonzalez, Jerry Owens and Josh Fields for significant numbers of games, you can see why the analysis would have projected 67 and not 72 losses. We had the worst bullpen in the American League, qualitatively if not quantitatively.

For all those saying they prefer Vazquez over Chris Young... How many of you would even think of betting the White Sox (and Javy) to win Game 1 up in Minnesota? Any takers? Just for argument's sake, I would like to see those who have enough confidence in Javier that they would go out and bet $1,000 on the Sox Tuesday night? I think some good can come out of this season, no matter what happens. If we fall short, KW will be forced to think over and over again about the Twins and how he can put together a team to beat them more than once every decade. If the Twins are in the head of our star pitcher who has won playoff and World Series games and our manager and announcers and most Sox fans, KW will be forced to confront his failures again (although his successes this season are many) by the media, Sox fest and season ticket holders. If the Twins were to beat us yet again, it would expose the fundamental flaw in KW's logic of a power-only based team tailored specifically for Comiskey...because Minnesota also has to play on the road, both teams have equal home field and away discrepancies. Neither has an advantage or disadvantage inherently. It seems Buddy Bell really needs to think long and hard about why so many players are lacking in the basic fundamentals (players that aren't "power" hitters or 3-4-5 in the order) when they reach the big league level. Someone like Andy Gonzalez is the perfect example...the type of player that, if nothing else, should be able to do the "little things" to help the team, as he's neither a power nor a speed-asset player, and below-average defensively. How did a player like that reach the big leagues and get so much playing time?

QUOTE (TheBigHurt @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 10:32 PM) More rambling that ignores the point, changes the subject and does nothing to counter my argument. And again, you're just comparing him to other managers. Apparently, Ozzie defenders can't read English correctly. I never mentioned a specific manager could win more. That's another flaw to your argument. You're trying to counter an argument that isn't there. You're not arguing with me, only the idea of what you want to THINK I'm saying. Wake up. And Like I've said, watch the games. See the horrible calls to do or not do something, timing, his decisions of pulling people too late or too soon, mismanaging his bullpen (not just this year so don't start with that "we have nobody good in the pen"), and everything else. He does it so often it's blatantly obvious he is a CLUELESS in-game manager. "Oh, but he has the passion! And he gets them fired up! And he gets them motivated! And he knows how to treat his players (which is not true at all)! But he gets the best talent out of his players (more bulls***)!" Really? Then why do the Sox still look like a terrible team for 2 1/2 years in a row? And BTW obviously he does NOT get the most talent out of his players. That's obvious this year. Another contradiction (actually it's a flat out LIE) of the prototypical Ozzie defender. Being a good "motivational" manager (a huge cop out to Ozzie's inability is all that is) and being a good in-game manager is two different things. I'm not saying Ozzie is a bad motivational manager (even though he does f*** that up sometimes, too), I'm saying Ozzie is a bad in-game manager, which is OBVIOUS, and it costs your team a lot of games, which it has. So far you're just another Ozzie defender in denial that fails to make a logical argument to back up your (and his) case, simply changing the subject and twisting other people's words around into your own "logic." You can say the same thing for those fans who always think getting rid of the manager/coach or putting in the back-up quarterback will solve everything...I always hear complaints about Guillen, but not as much before-the-fact second-guessing as afterwards. It's easy to look back on any game in hindsight. The problem is there's no way to say YOUR choice or idea would have worked better. It's why the ratio of praise versus criticism (especially after games) is always 1 to 10... Guillen was very patient with Ramirez, quickly identified him (from spring training on) as the "baseball" player and not just a raw athlete he was, and kept him around on the big league roster, waiting for the warm weather, which he correctly predicted would help...as well as regular at-bats. If you look at every scouting report on Ramirez, and what the other teams that went to his tryout that passed on offering a contract said...you have to give some credit to both KW and OG. Same with Ozzie's almost overabundant praise of Iguchi as the MVP. When Guillen has players on is team that can play the game the right way, he's always effusive with his praise. He gives players many chances to fail (see Boone Logan) and always has been very patient and supportive of the starters (Garland, Contreras, Vazquez...now Danks and Floyd, too)...I remember that this was something that Manuel was always attacked for, not letting Garland pitch out of trouble. Two seasons ago, it was that Javier could never get past the 5th/6th inning, yet Ozzie stuck with him and they got through that season and seemingly turned things around, without giving up on Javier and trading him yet again. Would Contreras have succeeded equally well with another manager and pitching coach? Thornton? Jenks? You can look at "in-game" tactics all you want, but if those players don't have the right clubhouse environment around them, they don't believe and trust in their manager and teammates...then they usually don't make the playoffs. Another example, in 2005, everyone was crucifying Guillen for his Sunday line-ups and playing the bench players so often. Well, apparently that "rest" kicked in the final week or so of the season, and players like Blum and Willie Harris went out to make key contributions because they got enough opportunities to play down the stretch. Any tactical/strategic manager is still only as good as hunches and past statistical analyses and trends. You can have all the books and computer printouts in the world, but you can't teach intuition and having a feel for the game. Some managers have it, others don't. You have to find the right button to push with each player. While motivation is sometimes overestimated in baseball (it's not football), you can't sell that part of Guillen's contributions short. Seemingly every time the team has needed a mental boost of lift, Ozzie getting on them at just the right time (but not too much, where it loses all meaning and players roll their eyes) has worked well this season...when the team has struggled, Ozzie has focused the attention on himself, Mariotti, the Cubs, etc., and the team has usually relaxed and played better baseball after that.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 09:44 PM) We dont have enough to get Ichiro. He isnt coming here. But that wasn't the point of my comments, you stated about Swishers OPS is only .10 worse. Beckham looks like a line drive swing with some power. Hopefully we A.) keep him B.) dont let our minor league instruction mess him up. C.) he stays healthy. Which goes back to the whole Chris Young trade again. He's young, dynamic and affordable. He does everything well besides throw. 46 doubles. Everyone will just throw out his OPS and OBP and say he's horrible, but I don't buy that argument. Obviously, he's a much different player than Ichiro, but I am not convinced we're so much better off with Javier Vazquez. At worse, he's Mike Cameron. And that's a lot better than our CF situation has been for the last three years. It's like just looking at Tadahito Iguchi's stats in 2005 on paper. They don't come close to telling the entire story. With Ichiro, how many errors did he force on the infield with his speed? How many pitchers gave up RBI's because they were concentrating on Ichiro at 1B or 2B? How many runners didn't advance because of his presence and arm in CF and RF? How many times did he move a runner over successfully? Don't get me started about our inability to bunt. Listening to both games today, it struck me the way that most teams' announcers say "and they're off to the races" as soon as a somewhat speedy guy gets on against anyone besides Buehrle. Mauer, you simply don't run on that guy. I kind of miss the days of Karkovice or even Miguel Olivo...when Harrelson was hyping him to be something he wasn't. But it was fun while it lasted.

QUOTE (TheBigHurt @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 09:32 PM) Did I EVER say anything about Ron or the Twins? No, I'm just saying OZZIE is a horrible manager and that if we had a better one we'd have a LOT more wins under our belt. It seems like the #1 (maybe ONLY) "Ozzie Defense" is comparison to other managers. How bad Ozzie is has nothing to do with other managers, period. And I don't mean to be rash, but the fact you credit Guillen for us being a few games up in a terrible division when Minnesotta has lost what... 8 of ten or something and we've hardly gained anything... you HAVE to be f***ing joking. That makes me laugh REALLY hard. And those managers would be who exactly? LaRussa? Maddon? Scioscia? Torre? Jerry Manuel? Francona? Piniella? Dusty Baker? Cito Gaston (only bring his name up because he almost got the job instead of Guillen)? I don't buy it. None of those guys would have the same pride about managing this team that Guillen does. The White Sox had/have a much more difficult schedule in the last six weeks than the Twins. I think something like 3-4 more series with teams over .500. It's like the whole Phil Jackson thing...how can he manage without great players? Is Leyland horrible after being great before? Well, what happened this year or in Colorado? What happened to Torre at the end in NY or in Atlanta? What about Piniella in TB? Isn't Maddon winning with many of the same players that Lou couldn't get to believe in themselves? Everyone says Manuel was the worst manager in their lifetime, with the exception of Bevington, right? Yet he's done okay in NY so far. You can't simply say XYZ manager would have the White Sox 5-10 games ahead of the Twins. Is Eric Wedge horrible or great? That team has pinballed all over the place over the last 3-4 seasons. Who's to say they wouldn't have won the WS with Guillen there?

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 09:24 PM) Ichiro has a .314 BA with a .365 OBP striking out only 61 times with 43 stolen bases with great defense and a rocket arm. I would love to have that player on our team. He would be more valuable to our team than 2 or 3 Swishers. But alas, who are you going to trade in order to acquire him? We would have to wait until July 31st to trade Beckham. I can't think of anyone besides Floyd, Danks, Ramirez, Jenks or Quentin that the Mariners would want to have from either our major or minor league roster. They're certainly not going to make bringing back Matt Thornton a centerpiece of the deal....that would be too embarassing. Having learned their lesson with Sexson, Bedard and to a lesser extent Beltre, they're not going to want Konerko, Dye or Swisher. I think KW will do something risky like dangle Jenks out there...because he has so few players with any current/future value to other teams, besides the ones I listed that everybody in baseball knows about.

QUOTE (TheBigHurt @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 09:16 PM) If the Sox blow the Division and playoff spot this year, I not only blame the offense, the defense and the bullpen, but I also blame Jeff Cox and especially Ozzie Guillen. His incompetence as a manager becomes more magnified every year, and down the stretch this year he has been a joke. It's almost as if he wants this team to lose. I'll repeat my earlier post...do you really think Twins fans are happy with Gardenhire? They believe that it's the Twins' "Way" and the system that has produced the results, not Gardenhire. Both managers have the same exact problem....horrible/questionable bullpens. We all say that anyone could have managed the 2005 White Sox because they were so efficient in their roles, but could all of us managed the clubhouse and tension to hold back the Cleveland charge? It's easy when you have the talent of the Red Sox or Angels to manage those teams. This White Sox team was 72-90 last year, let us not forget. Please read the following and tell me why Minnesota SHOULD NOT be ahead of us right now? If Gardenhire was such a great manager, wouldn't they have performed better on the road?? They have The Franchise, Joe Nathan, the American League MVP (maybe) and best catcher in baseball. It's not like they are without talent. Everyone agreed a month ago they had the far easier schedule, despite the road trip. Nobody forced them to lose so many games to CLE, Toronto and Seattle. They did it to themselves...just as the team (and not manager) has put themselves in this precarious situation. Not Guillen. If you lose twice to Kyle Davies, is that Guillen's fault?? How? Post-ASB, Minnesota has outpitched us, 4.04 ERA to 4.73 (the other top five teams in the AL are 1-5, ranging from 3.40 to 4.20). We are right around 9th/10th and still fading...we might even be 10th behind KC, I didn't take the time to readjust/recalculate after tonight's disaster. Our pitching, which was a strength in 2005 and the first half of 2008, just hasn't been there, especially the bullpen. 2) The Twins have an average of .311 with RISP. If they continue that for the next week, they will have the best team average with RISP in the AL IN THE LAST 34 YEARS. 3) The Twins have outscored us 331 to 302 post ASB. Twins, 2nd in AL runs scored since the break, White Sox 9th again. We were leading by 1 1/2 games at the break. We are now leading by 2 1/2 games. How is that even possible? I think a lot of the credit has to go to Guillen. You can't argue the fact that injuries haven't had more of an effect on the White Sox than the Twins in the second half.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 09:10 PM) I want some line drive hitters to augment our power base. That doesn't translate to Tavares. I just noticed that one of our popular trade targets, Ichiro, has an OPS exactly 0.10 points higher than Swisher. Unfortunately, McLouth, Granderson, Cody Ross, Matt Kemp, Shane Victorino and BJ Upton don't come cheap. And Rowand (dare I utter that name) still isn't worth that type of money.

QUOTE (knightni @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 08:53 PM) I wonder how many years KW can ride the 2005 wave? He may have a few issues on his plate this offseason. The White Sox have been very competitive for five of the last 9 seasons. Arguably, at different points in 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006 and 2008, they were the best team in the AL. 2001 and 2004, and, to a large extent, we can wash away due to injuries. 2002 was something of a transition year for the franchise (deciding players like Lofton and Royce Clayton weren't good fits). That's very good, compared to the 1960's through 1999 history of the White Sox.